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the gay "gene" = misleading media hype

Turbo Monk

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the gay "gene"

Is There a "Gay Gene"?

Many laymen now believe that homosexuality is part of who a person really is _ from the moment of conception.

The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?

No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is. Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.


How The Public Was Misled

In July of 1993, the prestigious research journal Science published a study by Dean Hamer which claims that there might be a gene for homosexuality. Research seemed to be on the verge of proving that homosexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeable, a normal variant of human nature.

Soon afterward, National Public Radio trumpeted those findings. Newsweek ran the cover story, "Gay Gene?" The Wall Street Journal announced, "Research Points Toward a Gay Gene...Normal Variation."

Of course, certain necessary qualifiers were added within those news stories. But only an expert knew what those qualifiers meant. The vast majority of readers were urged to believe that homosexuals had been proven to be "born that way."

In order to grasp what is really going on, one needs to understand some little known facts about behavioral genetics.


Gene Linkage Studies

Dean Hamer and his colleagues had performed a common type of behavioral genetics investigation called the "linkage study." Researchers identify a behavioral trait that runs in a family, and then:

a) look for a chromosomal variant in the genetic material of that family, and

b) determine whether that variant is more frequent in family members who share the particular trait.

To the layman, the "correlation" of a genetic structure with a behavioral trait means that trait "is genetic"-in other words, inherited.

In fact, it means absolutely nothing of the sort, and it should be emphasized that there is virtually no human trait without innumerable such correlations.


Scientists Know the Truth about "Gay Gene" Research

But before we consider the specifics, here is what serious scientists think about recent genetics-of-behavior research. From Science, 1994:

Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated. "Unfortunately," says Yale's [Dr. Joel] Gelernter, "it's hard to come up with many" findings linking specific genes to complex human behaviors that have been replicated. "...All were announced with great fanfare; all were greeted unskeptically in the popular press; all are now in disrepute."{1}


Homosexual Twin Studies

Two American activists recently published studies showing that if one of a pair of identical twins is homosexual, the other member of the pair will be, too, in just under 50% of the cases. On this basis, they claim that "homosexuality is genetic."

But two other genetic researchers--one heads one of the largest genetics departments in the country, the other is at Harvard--comment:

While the authors interpreted their findings as evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality, we think that the data in fact provide strong evidence for the influence of the environment.{2}

The author of the lead article on genes and behavior in a special issue of Science speaks of the renewed scientific recognition of the importance of environment. He notes the growing understanding that:

... the interaction of genes and environment is much more complicated than the simple "violence genes" and intelligence genes" touted in the popular press.The same data that show the effects of genes, also point to the enormous influence of nongenetic factors.{3}


More Modest Claims to the Scientific Community

Researchers' public statements to the press are often grand and far-reaching. But when answering the scientific community, they speak much more cautiously.

"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer was asked by Scientific American if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied:

"Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."{4}

But in qualifying their findings, researchers often use language that will surely evade general understanding making statements that will continue to be avoided by the popular press, such as:

...the question of the appropriate significance level to apply to a nonMendelian trait such as sexual orientation is problematic.{5}

Sounds too complex to bother translating? This is actually a very important statement. In layman's terms, this means:

It is not possible to know what the findings mean--if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.

Thus, to their fellow scientists, the researchers have been honestly acknowledging the limitations of their research. However, the media doesn't understand that message. Columnist Ann Landers, for example, tells her readers that "homosexuals are born, not made." The media offers partial truths because the scientific reality is simply too unexciting to make the evening news; too complex for mass consumption; and furthermore, not fully and accurately understood by reporters.



Accurate Reporting Will Never Come in "Sound Bites"

There are no "lite," soundbite versions of behavioral genetics that are not fundamentally in error in one way or another.

Nonetheless, if one grasps at least some of the basics, in simple form, it will be possible to see exactly why the current research into homosexuality means so littleand will continue to mean little, even should the quality of the research methods improveso long as it remains driven by political, rather than scientific objectives.


Understanding the Theory

There are only two major principles that need to be carefully understood in order to see through the distortions of the recent research. They are as follows:

1. Heritable does not mean inherited.

2. Genetics research which is truly meaningful will identify, and then focus on, only traits that are directly inherited.

Almost every human characteristic is in significant measure heritable. But few human behavioral traits are directly inherited, in the manner of height, for example, or eye color. Inherited means "directly determined by genes," with little or no way of preventing or modifying the trait through a change in the environment.


How to "Prove" That Basketball-Players are Born that Way

Suppose you are motivated to demonstrate for political reasons--that there is a basketball gene that makes people grow up to be basketball players. You would use the same methods that have been used with homosexuality: (1) twin studies; (2) brain dissections; (3) gene "linkage" studies.

The basic idea in twin studies is to show that the more genetically similar two people are, the more likely it is that they will share the trait you are studying.

So you identify groups of twins in which at least one is a basketball player. You will probably find that if one identical twin is a basketball player, his twin brother is statistically more likely be one, too. You would need to create groups of different kinds of pairs to make further comparisons--one set of identical twin pairs, one set of nonidentical twin pairs, one set of sibling pairs, etc.

Using the "concordance rate" (the percentage of pairs in which both twins are basketball players, or both are not), you would calculate a "heritability" rate. The concordance rate would be quite high--just as in the concordance rate for homosexuality.

Then, you announce to the reporter from Sports Illustrated: "Our research demonstrates that basketball playing is strongly heritable." (And you would be right. It would be "heritable"--but not directly inherited. Few readers would be aware of the distinction, however.)

Soon after, the article appears. It says:

"...New research shows that basketball playing is probably inherited. Basketball players are apparently 'born that way!' A number of outside researchers examined the work and found it substantially accurate and wellperformed..."

But no one (other than the serious scientist) notices the media's inaccurate reporting.


What All Neuroscientists Know:
The Brain Changes with Use


Then you move on to conduct some brain research. As in the well-known LeVay brain study which measured parts of the hypothalamus, your colleagues perform a series of autopsies on the brains of some dead people who, they have reason to believe, were basketball players.

Next, they do the same with a group of dead nonbasketball players. Your colleagues report that, on average, "Certain parts of the brain long thought to be involved with basketball playing are much larger in the group of basketball players."

A few national newspapers pick up on the story and editorialize, "Clearly, basketball playing is not a choice. Not only does basketball playing run in families, but even these people's brains are different."

You, of course, as a scientist, are well aware that the brain changes with use...indeed quite dramatically. Those parts responsible for an activity get larger over time, and there are specific parts of the brain that are more utilized in basketball playing.

Now, as a scientist, you will not lie about this fact, if asked (since you will not be), but neither will you go out of your way to offer the truth. The truth, after all, would put an end to the worldwide media blitz accompanying the announcement of your findings.


Gene Linkage Studies:
"Associated With" Does Not Mean "Caused By"


Now, for the last phase, you find a small number of families of basketball players and compare them to some families of nonplayers. You have a hunch that of the innumerable genes likely to be associated with basketball playing (those for height, athleticism, and quick reflexes, for example), some will be located on the x-chromosome.

You won't say these genes cause basketball playing because such a claim would be scientifically insupportable, but the public thinks "caused by" and "associated with" are synonymous.

After a few false starts, sure enough, you find what you are looking for: among the basketball-playing families, one particular cluster of genes is found more commonly.


With a Little Help from the Media

Now, it happens that you have some sympathizers at National People's Radio, and they were long ago quietly informed of your research. They want people to come around to certain beliefs, too. So, as soon as your work hits the press, they are on the air: "Researchers are hot on the trail of the Basketball Gene. In an article to be published tomorrow in Sports Science..."

Commentators pontificate about the enormous public-policy implications of this superb piece of science. Two weeks later, there it is again, on the cover of the major national newsweekly: "Basketball Gene?"

Now what is wrong with this scenario? It is simple: of course basketball playing is associated with certain genes; of course it is heritable. But it is those intermediate physiological traitsmuscle strength, speed, agility, reflex speed, height, etc.-which are themselves directly inherited. Those are the traits that make it likely one will be able to, and will want to, play basketball.

In the case of homosexuality, the inherited traits that are more common among male homosexuals might include a greater than average tendency to anxiety, shyness, sensitivity, intelligence, and aesthetic abilities. But this is speculation. To date, researchers have not yet sought to identify these factors with scientific rigor.

What the majority of respected scientists now believe is that homosexuality is attributable to a combination of psychological, social, and biological factors.


From the American Psychological Association
"[M]any scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors."{6}


From "Gay Brain" Researcher Simon LeVay
"At this point, the most widely held opinion [on causation of homosexuality] is that multiple factors play a role."{7}


From Dennis McFadden, University of Texas neuroscientist:
"Any human behavior is going to be the result of complex intermingling of genetics and environment. It would be astonishing if it were not true for homosexuality."{8}


From Sociologist Steven Goldberg
"I know of no one in the field who argues that homosexuality can be explained without reference to environmental factors."{9}


As we have seen, there is no evidence that homosexuality is simply "genetic"--and none of the research itself claims there is.

Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.


{1} Mann, C. Genes and behavior. Science 264:1687 (1994).

{2} Billings, P. and Beckwith, J. Technology Review, July, 1993. p. 60.

{3} Mann, C. op. cit. pp. 1686-1689.

{4} "New Evidence of a 'Gay Gene'," by Anastasia Toufexis, Time, November 13, 1995, vol. 146, Issue 20, p. 95.

{5} Hamer, D. H., et al. Response to Risch, N., et al., "Male Sexual Orientation and Genetic Evidence," Science 262 (1993), pp. 2063-65.

{6} The American Psychological Association's pamphlet, "Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality."

{7} LeVay, Simon (1996). Queer Science, MIT Press.

{8} "Scientists Challenge Notion that Homosexuality's a Matter of Choice," The Charlotte Observer, August 9, 1998.

{9} Goldberg, Steven (1994). When Wish Replaces Thought: Why So Much of What You Believe is False. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books.

Source
 
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i don't see what point this serves. Whether you are born gay or become gay you are still gay. Whether you are born a christian or become one.... you are still a christian.

(is this really another thread about homosexuality? Turbo what is you fascination with the subject? your high interest leads me to believe that you are fighting some homosexual tendencies yourself.
 
no, i think he is just mis-interpreting what people are saying. Nobody actually thinks homosexuality is some sort of mendelian "gene." Rather, some combination of genetic factors make you more and more gay as time goes on. Some people are 35% gay. Some are 100%. You could go from 35% to 100% between age 20 and 30. Who knows?

The point is, everything is an interaction between culture and biology. There is no "gay gene" like there is a brown-hair gene.

However, a lot of research has been done on the biological determinants of sexuality and gender. How come this stuff wasn't posted? Is Turbo trying to argue that homosexuality is completely learned? I hope not.
 
I don't see why sexual orientation should be different from any other types of personality, its probably partly genetic and probably partly the conditions in which you were raised. Neither of which are a choice.
 
bleedingheartcommie said:

(is this really another thread about homosexuality? Turbo what is you fascination with the subject? your high interest leads me to believe that you are fighting some homosexual tendencies yourself.

The continual sexual repression amongst the religious normally makes them fantasize about every sexual thing they haven't done...yet. When you repress something too long.. you begin to obsess about it.
 
Media hype eh?

No moreso than that collection of fables known as the Bible is misleading spiritual hype as to the existence of heaven.

Who the fuck cares why a person is gay? If they're not doing anything that impacts your life, why do you give a shit whether it's genetic or environmental?
 
Turbo, instead of trying to justify prejudice with religious, scientific or political bullshit, look inside yourself and think of how you would want to be treated. If you were gay, would you want people telling you something is wrong with you? Or would you want them to accept you and to treat you as their equal and to leave your personal life, sexual choices and personal relationship with God to yourself?

It may be possible that some people choose to lead a gay "lifestyle" but, for most, this is not a choice. But it IS their life. Who is anyone to imply that a single group of people have a monopoly on morality? When you say that, you are saying that homosexuals are immoral and have chosen an immoral lifestyle and that cannot be justified – no matter how much bullshit proof you THINK you have. What you really have is a simple case of homophobia and bigotry

I don’t know if you have children. I do. But I love my kids with ALL my heart and soul and I cannot IMAGINE the type of mindset a person would have to belittle them and condemn them if they happened to be born gay. To look MY child in the eye and tell them that their sexual orientation is a sin is just insane and cruel.

And actually, the question itself is absurd - why would anyone choose a life of discrimination, hardship and pressure?
 
Originally posted by Miss_Spitfire
if they happened to be born gay

That's where we differ.

Maybe you should set aside your prejudice and re-read the article then get back to me.

What you really have is a simple case of homophobia and bigotry

I quoted that article from the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality. So you accuse them of being homophobes and bigots as well?

Be careful with your accusations ma'am.
 
Originally posted by Turbo Monk That's where we differ.

THANK GOD I do not have your way of thinking. I am truly blessed that I can accept people for who they are and not condemn them b/c they are different than me.
Maybe you should set aside your prejudice and re-read the article then get back to me.
Don't you realize that there are enough people to hate in the world already without your working so hard to give me another?
I quoted that article from the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality.

Very good dear Turbo and tomorrow we’ll work on your ABC’s and 123’s!

So you accuse them of being homophobes and bigots as well?

Well DUH. I've come across decomposed bodies that are less offensive than they are.
Be careful with your accusations ma'am.

Be careful with your threats Turbo. This is no battle of wits between you and me. I never pick on an unarmed man. Now run along Turbo.
I know you’re fascinated with me turbo, and really I’m flattered but I’m curious why you feel the need to mostly respond to me in your posts? Now you’re threatening me? Most people who make threats like that have a speech impediment dear, it’s called their foot.
 
Miss_Spitfire said:
I am truly blessed that I can accept people for who they are and not condemn them b/c they are different than me.

It is not in my power nor my intention to condemn anyone, that's God's job.

Have you noticed this thread has NOTHING to do with homosexuality as it pertains to the Bible or even being right/wrong?

It's about whether homosexuality is genetically inheritable or not, and how the media has brainwashed you into thinking it is.

It's too bad you can't grasp that and resort to accusations and kindergarten level ad-homs.

Don't you realize that there are enough people to hate in the world already without your working so hard to give me another?

"Enough people to hate in the world already."

Wow. Your true colors are showing Miss_Spitfire.

Off topic, Jesus Christ lived and died so we could stop sinning, not redefine what sin is and vehemently attack those who boldly stand up for the Word of God.
 
I'm just stoopin to your level - I tried to be nice. I tried to be serious. I tried to carry on an intelligent conversation with you in MORE than one thread about homosexuality. I can't help it that you have an obession with destroying people who are different than you. Don't even get my started on your comment about Jesus - cause let me tell you something you are the EPITOMY of what Jesus hated. A modern day Pharisee who turns people away from God. You're just pissed off b/c you are trying desperately hard to piss me off. Try a little harder - I'm the toughest bitch you'll ever come across. Instead of being born again, why don't you just grow up?




Turbo Monk said:
It is not in my power nor my intention to condemn anyone, that's God's job.

Have you noticed this thread has NOTHING to do with homosexuality as it pertains to the Bible or even being right/wrong?

It's about whether homosexuality is genetically inheritable or not, and how the media has brainwashed you into thinking it is.

It's too bad you can't grasp that and resort to accusations and kindergarten level ad-homs.



"Enough people to hate in the world already."

Wow. Your true colors are showing Miss_Spitfire.

Off topic, Jesus Christ lived and died so we could stop sinning, not redefine what sin is and vehemently attack those who boldly stand up for the Word of God.
 
exactky what relavence does this have on anything? I don't like how you pick and choose which points in a thread you will respond to.


bleedingheartcommie said:
^^^ so you think that there was some incident or just a series of events or whatever that cause them to have a psychological change. You think that homosexuals are psychologically retreating to a gay persona. Something must have pushed this person to be gay if it's not a natural born trait.

Well with that train of thought, the only reason you are who you are is the result of what has happened to you. You are straight b/c you psychological development kept you straight. You wear the clothes that you do b/c of past psychological conditioning.

To say that homosexuality is a product of psychological input is to acknowlegde that we are products of our environment. so you must agree that even if you arn't born gay, becoming gay is a natural progression of conditioning that could theoretically effect anyone.

just b/c people arn't born gay, it doesn't mean that it's not a natural occurence. (that's just as valid as why you are the way you are)

could you speak to this point please?^^^

or this one...

j33buscr1p3s said:
I don't see why sexual orientation should be different from any other types of personality, its probably partly genetic and probably partly the conditions in which you were raised. Neither of which are a choice.

or this one...
glowbug said:
Media hype eh?

No moreso than that collection of fables known as the Bible is misleading spiritual hype as to the existence of heaven.

Who the fuck cares why a person is gay? If they're not doing anything that impacts your life, why do you give a shit whether it's genetic or environmental?

I will be the first to agree with you that almost everything the media says is false or exagerated and it is borderline brainwash..... but no more so than say... church... or dare i say the pleadge of allegence.

it seems that the major argument you are failing to see is that no one else but you gives a shit about other peoples business. If you were gay (and i am assuming you are not) then i could see why you would have such a facination with this.

why is it that you need to push your absolutist views on others? Do you feel that you are on a god given mission? are you looking for some sort of approval? or are you just trying to put yourself on a moral pedistal with god by telling us that we are morally flawed?

i just don't see the point
 
oh... and the funniest thing i have read in a while...

Turbo Monk said:

It's too bad you can't grasp that and resort to accusations and kindergarten level ad-homs.



"Enough people to hate in the world already."

Wow. Your true colors are showing Miss_Spitfire.


do you realize what you did? you actually called her out for attacking you'r character which is an ad homan fallacy.... but then in the very next sentence you attack her character....

I mean how fucking ironic is that?

you used you knowledge of a fallacy to commit that exact fallacy...lmfao
 
bleedingheartcommie said:
oh... and the funniest thing i have read in a while...



do you realize what you did? you actually called her out for attacking you'r character which is an ad homan fallacy.... but then in the very next sentence you attack her character....

I mean how fucking ironic is that?

you used you knowledge of a fallacy to commit that exact fallacy...lmfao

roflmao - I'm SO glad I wasn't the ONLY one to see that. Amateurs huh? =D
 
bleedingheartcommie said:
Something must have pushed this person to be gay if it's not a natural born trait.

That's my position.

To say that homosexuality is a product of psychological input is to acknowlegde that we are products of our environment. so you must agree that even if you arn't born gay, becoming gay is a natural progression of conditioning that could theoretically effect anyone.

Yes, and the factors of what dictate "natural progression of conditioning" are very broad and controversial.

I don't see why sexual orientation should be different from any other types of personality, its probably partly genetic and probably partly the conditions in which you were raised. Neither of which are a choice.

I'm not gonna argue one's genetics and the conditions in which they grow up as being a choice. I will argue that sexual orientation is not dictated by genetics and cannot be applied to that comment.


Who the fuck cares why a person is gay? If they're not doing anything that impacts your life, why do you give a shit whether it's genetic or environmental?


Usually when people say fuck or shit in a response, I steer clear until their blood pressure lowers and they're more inclined to have a reasonable discussion.

To answer your question, who cares about anything? What's the point of posting on a message board anyhow?

Originally posted by Miss_Spitfire
"Don't you realize that there are enough people to hate in the world already without your working so hard to give me another?"

Don't dodge that remark. You like to throw Scripture around telling people to love others then you spew out that. What's with you?

Don't even get my started on your comment about Jesus - cause let me tell you something you are the EPITOMY of what Jesus hated. A modern day Pharisee who turns people away from God.

'Epitomy' is not even a word. If you're going to put something in all caps, at least spell it correctly, you'll look less ignorant.

I'm going to say this as diplomatically as I can: that is the Spirit talking to you. You are subverting the Christian faith when you try to redefine sin.

Pharisees paraded around in their robes following all the rules, holding themselves higher than the rest of the mortal "sinners" because they boasted on not sinning themselves. They didn't turn people away from God, they became the buffer between God and the rest of everybody else.

I've said time and time again, I'm the worst sinner I know. You've said yourself that when you hear people humbly admit they're sinners it turns your stomach. Are you too proud to admit you're a sinner?

I hold that God's salvation is offered to WHOSOEVER believes in Christ, and nobody is excluded from that salvation. Therefore I am not the buffer between God and anyone, Jesus is.
 
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Turbo,

Thanks for the info. I had my doubts, but after reading the article you posted and doing some research on my own, I am pretty confident in saying that people do not inherit their sexual orientation.

I realize that this isn't what this thread is about, but I feel that I need to bring it up anyway, because somehow I doubt that your sole purpose for posting this thread was to show that homosexuality is not genetically inherent. There appears to be an ulterior motive behind this post. If I am incorrect in making this assumption, let me know. I will glady retract this post.

It seems to me that to you, the fact that scientists have never found a "gay gene" somehow justifies the judgement of a homosexual person.
Now before you go crying about how god is the only judge, please explain to me why this is of any concern to you, if that is the case? You have failed to so in previous threads.

Secondly, the gene thats missing is the sexual orientation gene, not the gay gene. There is no gene that determines the sexual orientation of a person. If being gay is a choice, then so is being a heterosexual. If your argument is that this is the case, very well, I agree. However, it is a choice to a certain extent. While the mind is malleable and there is control of this to a certain degree, there are still many external uncontrollable factors which could and in most cases do seriously influence a person to go one way instead of another when faced with any descision. There are also other factors which seriously impair(never completely) a persons ability to make a particular choice.

For example, while for you it would be difficult to not be christian, for another person, it is the other way around. You have a choice as to whether or not to be christian, but do you really have much of a choice as to what you will pick ?

Do you hate homosexuals and wish to deny them civil liberties that heterosexuals are entitled to because god will judge them later on? What is the logic behind that? You said it yourself, god will judge them, so who are you to do anything? Wouldn't you just be following gods instruction and following the word of the bible by treating them with the same love and respect as any other person?
 
Turbo Monk said:
'Epitomy' is not even a word. If you're going to put something in all caps, at least spell it correctly, you'll look less ignorant.

Rofl - awwww, you got all worked up b/c I spelled a word wrong? Actually Pharisee, it’s epitome but I was busy doing 4 things at once and dealing with your homophobic butt so I think I did pretty good job considering. Besides, you’re about as useful as a windshield wiper on a goat’s ass - you really have no room to judge. You would know about ignorance wouldn’t you? You’re the kind of a person that would be used as a blueprint to build an idiot. Now, moving on.......

I'm going to say this as diplomatically as I can: that is the Spirit talking to you. You are subverting the Christian faith when you try to redefine sin.

I so appreciate your POV, that I almost regret dismissing it.

Pharisees paraded around in their robes following all the rules, holding themselves higher than the rest of the mortal "sinners" because they boasted on not sinning themselves. They didn't turn people away from God, they became the buffer between God and the rest of everybody else.

Are you really this stupid or is today a special day for you? Okay, Pharisee, here we go- I called you a Modern Day Pharisee - and you are. You are a Modern-day Pharisee, just as the Pharisees in the bible, you judge by the wrong standard. You really are the offspring of vipers. The Lord told the Pharisees, 'You tried to look like upright people outwardly, but inside your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness.'Matt23:28 Pharisees are people who know the Bible and miss the point. Like you do ALL the time.

You really need to get the facts straight about pharisees, if you’re going to preach about them, you should tell ALL aspects of them besides, it’ll make you look less ignorant.

I've said time and time again, I'm the worst sinner I know. You've said yourself that when you hear people humbly admit they're sinners it turns your stomach. Are you too proud to admit you're a sinner?

Psalm 51:3 - "For I acknowledge my transgressions and my sin is always before me."

I do not go parading around that I’m a sinner b/c it’s condscending and not only that, you assume that the people that you are telling that too think that you’re perfect. I don’t have that arrogance about me. I do not assume that people think that I’m perfect so therefore I must tell them that I’m a “sinner” as if they didn't know. I do not answer to you - only to God. I don’t have to admit anything to you Pharisee -for you are not who I answer to. DUH. 8)


I hold that God's salvation is offered to WHOSOEVER believes in Christ, and nobody is excluded from that salvation. Therefore I am not the buffer between God and anyone, Jesus is.

Just like a Pharisee, you can “talk” the “talk” can’t you? I can see right through that crap though and so can everyone else. What you really meant to say was, “God's love is unconditional...."..."....as long as you meet certain conditions."
 
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