The effects of drugs on accessing the 'spirit-world'

[swilow]

So recently, I have been experiencing some intense anxiety, similar to the anxiety I felt years ago which lead me to become an addict on several drugs and basically attempt to ruin my life (and partially succeeded! :D). Its a feeling of deep unease, unsettled and aimless. I dissociate a bit under stress; the world feels unreal, all occurrences are embued with creepy significance, I feel like I am 'over-populated', the other world (for want of a better term) is close at hand, and I feel a prescence/s near/surrounding me. In this state, I experience pleasant mystical sensation, an understanding of an external force, an idea that there is unseen forces swirling about us. Its accompanied by the nausea, sweating, shaking and trembling of anxiety though, and is reminiscent of pre-epileptic aura (I have epliepsy that is 'latent', was exacerbated dramatically by past-benzo withdrawal and is controllable with medications as required). Well, yesterday this was required, so I took some diazepam and carbamazepine, and found that, within 30 minutes, the anxiety had subsided but so had my communing with the 'other world'. I was pleased that I didn't feel afraid and pensive anymore, but sad that the fairies appeared to have gone home

This made me ponder; what sort of effects do drugs have on our perception of the spirit world, and more importantly, why would using a drug to inhibit neural transmission seem to close the Mystical Gates? I should add that (as some may know) I am not a theist whatsoever, but I can't call myself an atheist. I welcome awareness of the unseen, though I can't stand the dissociation and seizure-like activity that (for me) accompanies it.

This has made me wonder something. Could mystical experience be a result of over-excited neurons? I cannot stand shaking and trembling and being over-stimulated, but I feel a sense of loss at the absence of (what feels like) overwhelming divinity.

Is spirituality brain activity, nothing more? I don't think it is, but my experience yesterday suggests it is so... I should note that I am not generalsing my experience unto all, and can understand if perhaps this is just me going through this.

I feel desperate though, because I love the unseen world, it feels like my true home, though I am deeply afraid of it.

And no, I don't think I am psychotic at this stage.

 

[3dmusic]

Hi

I'm like you. I cannot call myself an aethist, yet I am not a theist either.
I am open to the possibility of the existence of a spirit world, and have had some experiences which suggest that, yet, my sceptic side still doubts.
I don't think the brain is the be all and end all when it comes to sensory perception, although it is the neural centre of the organism. I believe that our senses are all one, smell, sight, taste, touch, hearing, and an oversense, perception. I believe our bodies are part of our minds. Our mental sense of touch, how we can hone in on one area or all of our body with this tactile non physical touch.
I like the way you describe the unseen forces swirling around us.
I liken what we perceive on trips to perceiving this unseen force the swirls.
Trips are always geometric for me, and i remember one track which started with the words "mathematics is the language of the universe" and it is.
I think our neurons are physical perception, electricity travels along them, stimulating centres in the brain, but that is just the mechanical phyiscal view.
As I am a sceptic, I take most spiritual videos I watch with a grain of salt, but I like listening to the biologist Rupert Sheldrake as I can relate to what he says.

 

[Ninae]

I think drugs and medications definitely influence your energy-system, and how the different energy-centers work, and that's how they really influence your experience.

All depending on the drugs. Some might open them up, like LSD, which tends to open up the higher centres for spirtual perception (mainly the 6th and 7th). While others can shut them though. Like certain sedatives. Alcohol proabably the worst. And stimulants for sure will draw you closer into the physical world.

 

[murphythecat]

you are not a brain. you are much more big then that.
meditation will solve your life and helps you to find your inner truth

 

[Ninae]

Yes, but we are also a brain all the same. That kind of reductionist Buddhist outlook is very unnatural to for Westeners.

You are not the brain, you are not the body, you are not your thoughts and feelings, etc. But we still have to deal with those things and we are still all of that all the same. The Western approach to elevation of consciousness is more about uplifting and subliminating these things rather than getting rid of them. Christianity is about transformation through love, or something more active, rather than passive.

This works better for me as I don't enjoy reducing myself as much as possible. But both paths are equal, the passive path is more for the East only (Theosophy describes this in detail, I can't quite remember how).

 

[murphythecat]

Yes, but we are also a brain all the same. That kind of reductionist Buddhist outlook is very unnatural to for Westeners.

You are not the brain, you are not the body, you are not your thoughts and feelings, etc. But we still have to deal with those things and we are still all of that all the same. The Western approach to elevation of consciousness is more about uplifting and subliminating these things rather than getting rid of them. Christianity is about transformation through love, or something more active, rather than passive.

This works better for me as I don't enjoy reducing myself as much as possible. But both paths are equal, the passive path is more for the East only (Theosophy describes this in detail, I can't quite remember how).

your the reductionist ninae and buddhism is a practice that begins with love and mindfulness. what do you think one do with his minfulness all day? he makes sure he is in the right mind set which begins with indeed love, mindfulness, generosity and calm.

meditation and mindulness is the most active way to live. Mindfulness is the EXACT opposite of passivity. its living every moment mindfully, with all your attention and make sure that you live every moment with the right attention and motive.

and there no spiritual path without letting go of what you think you are.

 

[ForEverAfter]

I agree with her.
There is the inner self and the outer self.
Both have paths towards truth and love.
Neither are superior, IMO, but - personally - I prefer the outer path.

You've said that you want to be a monk.
How is that "active", as she defined it?
Isn't being a monk as "passive" as it gets?

Monks are, typically, sexually abstinent... and they live simple lives.
Monastery's are like live-in sensory deprivation tanks.

...

As far as the OP's question goes, here are my thoughts: the question needs to be redefined; drugs can't be lumped together... Like Ninae said, some drugs can help with your connection to the divine while others will obscure your ability to see beyond the limitations of this world.

 

[murphythecat]

because being mindful in every moment is the most active activity one could make in his life.
do you think monk simply sit down and do nothing? Mindfulness is a active process that allows one to grow, purify and awake oneself.

being mindful and learning to purify your mind is the most active and less lazy activity one can ever do in his life.

theres no self, but theres a inner truth.

 

[-=SS=-]

This has made me wonder something. Could mystical experience be a result of over-excited neurons? I cannot stand shaking and trembling and being over-stimulated, but I feel a sense of loss at the absence of (what feels like) overwhelming divinity.

The issue is within that sentence. 'Mystical experience' is kind of like dyslexia or autism.. it's a broad umbrella term used by lots of people to define experiences that may or may not be the same, similar, or completely different to those of other people claiming the same 'mystical experience'. Not only that but we really do not know the mechanics of these experiences.. in the brain, in the mind, beyond the mind, physiologically, subtle bodies, etc.. there's so many different factors at play!

If you read around on the subject of mystical experiences you'll see that there are definite levels of experience, culminating in the enlightenment experience (sahaja samahdi). Lot's of people experience cosmic consciousness but that's not the same thing.

Personally I think there's streams of information that we are not privy too under ordinary circumstances, about ourselves, the surrounding context, other dimensions. Sometimes you can throw a spanner in the works (excited neurons) and knock your point of observation off dead centre and catch a glimpse out of the corner of your (minds) eye of these other places on the spectrum, so to speak.

After experiencing things through meditation I can't ever go back to using psychedelics for 'mystical experiences' because it merely adds more confusion to the mix when what you want is to be able to do is distinguish what the actual fuck is going on!

 

[ForEverAfter]

Murphy,
Words mean different things in different contexts.
Ninae defined active/passive, by using it in a particular context.
You're changing that context in response, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense (to me).

do you think monk simply sit down and do nothing?

Of course not. I don't think monks are lazy, or that they're less mentally / spiritually active than other people.
They are, however, less physically active. They have reduced relationships with society. They have reduced sex lives.
Their focus is internal. They reduce certain elements of their life, in order to focus on what they think is important.
There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I respect their determination. I don't agree that it is the only path, however.

After experiencing things through meditation I can't ever go back to using psychedelics for 'mystical experiences' because it merely adds more confusion to the mix when what you want is to be able to do is distinguish what the actual fuck is going on!

I liked your post, but I disagree with this part.
Psychedelics can be "tamed" and used in a controlled manner, much like meditation. (IMO)

 

[murphythecat]

Meditation begins only when theres no thoughts in the mind, with a stilled and controlled mind absorb in the now. I doubt very much one individual would be able to trip or even want to trip and maintain a mind free of any confusion under the influence of the psychedelic trip. The very reason why one individual take a psychedelic is already not in the right state of purity conductive of any deep meditation as the individual is looking for a experience and is looking outward for happiness which is already a wrong view.

so no, psychedelic cannot be tamed and act like meditation.
meditation brings purity and insight. the very reason to meditate is to purify and gain insight into the nature of reality. Psychedelics can indeed brings insight into the nature of reality, but not much purity because the insight psychedelics brings must be use and developped in sober life. Also, even the insight coming from a psychedelic state isnt as clear as the insight in meditation. There's a lot of interpretation and some confusion can occur when trying to integrate psy insight into one own life.

how to bring purity to oneself in life? the only way is with mindfulness and love and you dont need psy to show you that, but you do need meditation to show you just how much you really have right now.

but again foreverafter, most of the time when you disagree, its based on not understanding the foundation of mindfulness and honestly key elements in buddhism practice.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Your opinions about psychedelics are based on limited assumptions.

I doubt very much one individual would be able to trip or even want to trip and maintain a mind free of any confusion under the influence of the psychedelic trip.

I can do it... and have done it, many times.

The very reason why one individual take a psychedelic is already not in the right state of purity conductive of any deep meditation as the individual is looking for a experience and is looking outward for happiness which is already a wrong view.

Here are the assumptions.
1. The user is looking for "an experience".
2. The user is looking for happiness.
3. The user is looking outward.

Numbers #2 and #3 are wrong.
I don't seek happiness and I don't indulge in external stimuli.
I don't understand #1. You're going to have to clarify that one.

...

It takes a long time to tame psychedelics. I've had thousands of trips.
How many trips have you had? What psychedelics have you consumed, at what doses?
I've experimented with low (threshold) doses and dozens of combinations.
I consumed hallucinogenic mushrooms every day for an entire year.

If you have less experience with psychedelics than I do, which I suspect is the case, then why do you presume to know so much about them?

but again foreverafter, most of the time when you disagree, its based on not understanding the foundation of mindfulness and honestly key elements in buddhism practice.

We're not talking about Buddhism.
We're talking about psychedelics.

The world doesn't revolve around Buddha.

 

[murphythecat]

foreverafter,
I suspect that you omit to use your logic and honesty when you talk and I cannot speak to someone whom I feel isn't using a right mindset to discuss such serious manner. I will not answer you anymore. sorry

 

[ForEverAfter]

Um, okay... I've been totally honest with you but if you don't want to discuss psychedelia with me, that's fine.
There's no need to apologize.

I doubt you're going to consider this, but maybe you should stop telling people that they're wrong and you're right all the time...

Like just now, you said that I don't have the "right" mindset...
I don't know what that means, but I take it you do have the right mindset?
Like how the path you're on (Buddhism) is the right path and the only right path, according to you...

 

[murphythecat]

Well, one could easily argue that what I am doing in this thread isnt very wholesome to begin with, so im not in the perfect mindset myself, but I feel that you omit, in many threads actually, simple logic and that you sometime lie to try to prove a point. I suspect also that you have a very limited knowledge of buddhism practice and the many themes and beliefs of buddhism which is a serious blockage in any serious discussion related to buddhism with you. If you are informed about buddhism and im wrong about your lack of understanding and knowledge, I simply believe that its not useful, for me or you, to talk to someone who doesnt share the same beliefs and value.

yes, I believe buddhism is the most clear, logic and helpful path to develop and find happiness within us and if you dont, I suggest you to ignore most of my post, and I will gladly try to do the same.

Um, okay... I've been totally honest with you but if you don't want to discuss psychedelia with me, that's fine.
There's no need to apologize.

I doubt you're going to consider this, but maybe you should stop telling people that they're wrong and you're right all the time...

Like just now, you said that I don't have the "right" mindset...
I don't know what that means, but I take it you do have the right mindset?
Like how the path you're on (Buddhism) is the right path and the only right path, according to you...

 

[ForEverAfter]

I don't lie, when I'm being serious.
I'm always honest, in other words, unless I'm joking.
What do you think I'm lying about in this particular thread?
(It's pretty low to call me a liar, because you disagree with me.)

I don't have a very limited knowledge of Buddhism.
On the contrary, I've investigated it thoroughly.
And, as I've said before, it is my favorite religion.
I just don't agree that it is THE answer.

You keep using this child-like argument that, "you just don't understand!" but you fail to explain what I don't understand: it seems to me that it is unfathomable to you that I disagree with aspects of Buddhism and consider it a religion, so you write me off as either a liar or ignorant; it seems like you're not comfortable, essentially, with your beliefs being challenged.

You pop up in all sorts of threads promoting Buddhism as the answer, and the only answer, to people's problems. You flat out tell people that they're wrong and that you're right... that you're on the right path and they're on the wrong path... Well, maybe you don't have everything figured out and other people have valid spiritual paths that aren't Buddhist? It is impossible for you to know that Buddhism is the only path... Nobody is saying that it isn't a valid path and nobody, except for you, is saying that their path is the only valid one.

I'm not going to avoid your posts.
This is a public forum and I'm allowed to reply.

meditation will solve your life

You don't know how to "solve" everyone's life, dude.
You don't have everything figured out....
Buddhism is not the ultimate answer.

I'm glad that it is working for you, but you don't have to push it on everyone else and tell them that they need Jesus (oops, I mean Buddha) to be pure... You said, in another post, that rape victims (ideally) shouldn't suffer because suffering is unwholesome and it doesn't achieve anything... You also said that anybody who suffers is at fault.. Meditation cannot solve all the problems in the real world... Reducing (there's that word again) suffering, isn't always the best solution... Suffering is functional.. I really don't think you have everything figured out..

If everybody lived as monks, for example, there wouldn't be the level of medical science that there is today..
Many disabled people that I have cared for throughout my life would not live past their infancy..
That is not the ultimate solution to life's problems.. Call me a liar. Call me crazy.

I'm not singling you out. If there was a Christian fundamentalist posting stuff about needing Jesus to be pure, and Christianity being the only path, then I would object in a similar fashion... Nobody is telling you that Buddhism is "wrong".. It has it's place, like everything else... There needs to monks and there needs to be neurosurgeons... Why do you feel the need to consistently advertise your belief system as the only true path towards "purity"...? I mean, who are you trying to convince? Yourself?

...

Willow, I'm sorry to hear about your anxieties. I can definitely relate... I'm planning on replying to your PM, by the way, it just makes me anxious to reply to something so personal so I'm delaying it... The longer I delay it, the more anxious it makes me..

Anyway, I can relate to some extent.
Fully transcendental (non psychedelic) near death experiences often leave me rattled to the core.
I have seen so much of the other side and, perhaps, we shouldn't be looking behind the curtain.
I am learning to process the infinite / the eternal and integrate it into my life, but it is difficult at times.

Sometimes I regret seeing what I've seen, but - generally - I'm happy to take the good with the bad.
In other words: you're lucky, I think, to have that connection (difficult as it may be)... cause many people don't..

 

[swilow]

Some good replies thus far; when I'm more earthly I shall respond.

I'm planning on replying to your PM, by the way, it just makes me anxious to reply to something so personal so I'm delaying it... The longer I delay it, the more anxious it makes me..

No hurry or pressure. I get the same feeling man- no stress I more wanted to tell you stuff so it doesn't need to be reciprocated....

 

[Ninae]

because being mindful in every moment is the most active activity one could make in his life.
do you think monk simply sit down and do nothing? Mindfulness is a active process that allows one to grow, purify and awake oneself.

being mindful and learning to purify your mind is the most active and less lazy activity one can ever do in his life.

theres no self, but theres a inner truth.

Have you read any Theosophy?

As it was Theosophists who brought Buddhism from India in the 1800s and really introduced it to Western culture. It also explains how the spiritual initiations can be achieved through many faiths and applies the different religions to the different "rays". Like, Christianity is associated with the Love ray and Buddhism with the Wisdom ray, if I remember correctly.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that just one part of the world would be given the tools to achieve enlightenment by. Given that not long ago, or before the international media came along, people in different parts of the world would live completely separate lives. So it makes sense that there will have been people who have attained illumination within all traditions and you can find examples of mystics in all religions.

One of the main attractions of the faiths of the East (for people in the Western world) is also that they come from somewhere else. So they might seem more exotic and are something different to the form of spirituality that was imposed on you when you were too young to understand it, etc. So it's natural to find it more attractive and it's common to hear people say they have time for the eastern faiths as opposed to Christianity.

But, in the same way, someone born into a Buddhist society might feel the same way about that. Human beings are quite fickle when it comes to religious belief.

 

[murphythecat]

my interest in buddhism is not because it comes from far, but because it correlates all my psy experience, is intellectually and practically logical and the more I practice the more I see the truth in the teaching. Purity of mind is the only way to happiness and the path to purity of mind is clear and very precise.

 

[Ninae]

There is usually a sentimental reason for an attachment to a belief-system, even if it's unconscious. For instance, the attachment I have to Christianity mostly comes from being moved by the nature of Christ and also from being able to attain enough consciousness growth to find meaning in a spiritual tradition I wasn't able to accept before.

Also, the higher you come in consciousness development the easier it becomes to relate to different belief-systems. Those at the highest levels don't disagree that much. It's the internal processes that matter and not so much the external frames (and that goes for what religion you choose to devote yourself to too). If you read high-level mystics within different traditions they sound pretty much the same, even if they use different words for the same thing.

What do you think of Plotinus and Emationism? Or have you heard of it? I like the idea of creation being a series of successive emanations going out from one primary source and becoming increasingly less pure as they are removed from the source. In fact, it's the only way I can logically understand creation. You might call that source "God" or you can call it "Nothingness" but it's still the same thing.