The Bar

[Dr. J]

No, not where you get drunk
From knowing others who have sat for the Bar, there is quite the application process. For those of you who have actually sat for the exam, what kind of questions are asked when you apply to sit for the exam? Also, how far back and how deep do they get into your past, and, what are situations that will immediately make you unable to sit?
More specifically, if one has been through a drug treatment program (which is supposedly confidential) or was placed into Emergency Protective Custody (again, supposedly confidential) will they find out about it? If the chances of them finding out are small, do you disclose anyway?
Thanks in advance...
Dr. J

 

[quale]

Well I don't know much about this issue but it was always my impression that the bar exam was not a security clearance, rather a test of your legal knowledge.
Ex-cons can be lawyers like anyone else no?

 

[Dr. J]

Not so...
I personally know someone who was denied a seat on the Bar exam because of a drug conviction. Moreover, many books I have read state that people who falsify information on resumes, etc., will be denied as well. That is to say, the Bar checks to see if you really were the president of club x at your university.
What I'm trying to do is get a better feel for the types of security and background questions asked from those who have gone through the process or have some knowledge about it.
[ 07 October 2002: Message edited by: Dr. J ]

 

[DrGonzoESQ]

It really depends on the state. The background checks are fairly intensive and yes you can be denied for drug treatment and other reasons. However, the only thing that will absolutely prevent you from being admitted is crimes of Moral Turpitude (theft crimes mainly) or for failing to disclose something on your application. Even if you are initially denied you can usually request a hearing where you can explain the circumstances. But, if you deliberately fail to disclose something and they find out, you'll never get in. Many people have sucess in the hearing process.
Good luck.

 

[hugh jorgen]

so if my only scrape with the law was shoplifting baseball cards from shopko when I was 14, I could be disallowed to take the bar?
is the backgroung check any more intrusive than the usual doj checks they do for military, fed jobs, etc.?

 

[DrGonzoESQ]

Shoplifting some baseball cards as a child isn't going to keep you out in most situations. The Bar is more concerned with adult behavior and they will take into account the amount of time since an offense and any steps toward rehabilitation(if warranted).
The background checks aren't any worse than any of the examples cited. Although some states do look into the finacial situation of applicants, including student loans and will deny entrance to applicants on that basis, the rational being that they are more likely, if in financial distress, to steal client money.

 

[matt1978]

Originally posted by Dr. J:
From knowing others who have sat for the Bar, there is quite the application process. For those of you who have actually sat for the exam, what kind of questions are asked when you apply to sit for the exam?
In my state, they asked about things like educational background, employment history, arrests, criminal charges and convictions, driving records, college/law school disciplinary records, mental health, and substance abuse. There was also a vague catch-all question that was something like, "Have you ever been involved in an incident where your integrity or character was challenged?"

Also, how far back and how deep do they get into your past, and, what are situations that will immediately make you unable to sit?
In my state, most of the questions asked for information back to age 18, except for the mental health questions, which went back to age 16.
What disqualifies someone from bar admission? In my state, a felony conviction means you're automatically out. However, I believe that most other states will consider felonies on a case-by-case basis.

More specifically, if one has been through a drug treatment program (which is supposedly confidential) or was placed into Emergency Protective Custody (again, supposedly confidential) will they find out about it? If the chances of them finding out are small, do you disclose anyway?

The bar examiners in my state say that going through treatment for substance abuse or mental health issues is seen as a sign of maturity.
As DrGonzo said, you don't want to get caught lying on your bar application. In most cases, I don't think they're really going to verify that you were vice-president of your college's basket-weaving club. But again, if they catch you lying, you're in trouble.

 

[miamistu]

I have recently sat for two bar exams (passed both New York and Florida). I am a lawyer in NY (where I live) and am still fighting to be admitted in Florida (where I am from).
In NY, the questions much less intrusive and unless u have actually been convicted of a felony, they will probably admit you without a hearing if you answer honestly. (Everyone gets a 15 minute interview which is a total joke. If you show up sober theyll admit you.)
The Florida Bar examiners are a bunch of pricks and ask you to disclose everything from traffic tickets that were dismissed (who even remembers that shit?) to your credit card debt. Its pretty fucking insane.

 

[matt1978]

Congrats, miamistu! I just passed the Indiana bar.
"Everyone gets a 15 minute interview which is a total joke. If you show up sober theyll admit you."
The Character and Fitness interview is part of our admission process, and from what I've heard, it can really vary. For one of my colleagues, it was a pleasant chat. For a friend of mine, it was like a hostile examination on the Rules of Professional Conduct... the interviewer was pretty nasty to her. And for me, it was a kinda weird conversation... the lawyer who did it was trying to drum into my head the idea that lawyers need to get involed in the political process to advance their clients' needs.
"The Florida Bar examiners are a bunch of pricks and ask you to disclose everything from traffic tickets that were dismissed (who even remembers that shit?) to your credit card debt."
In Indiana, I didn't have to disclose my credit card debt, although I did think I had to state whether I'd ever filed for bankruptcy. They did also ask for my driving records from every state in which I've had a license. And while one speeding ticket won't get you rejected, I have heard of people getting grilled over bad driving records.
In all, it wasn't a big deal (I've got a clean background)... it was mostly just a hassle to put together a timeline of every address I've ever had (both school and permanent addresses), plus every job I've ever had.
Comments on edit: if you have any aspirations of becoming a lawyer, and you've bounced around a lot like me (including college dorm/apartment addresses), start compiling that infomation now!
[ 24 October 2002: Message edited by: matt1978 ]

 

[Dr. J]

Matt...
You seem to be pretty well-versed here. You said that one of the admissions questions sought information for mental health as far back as 16. My parents had issues with me being gay and sent me to a shrink for a while back in my younger years, put me on zoloft, etc. Since medical/mental health records are private, how can they really find out? Understand my concern here is not necessarily trying to conceal something, but rather, I can't remember doctors names and dates that far back.
Thanks,
Dr. J

 

[matt1978]

Originally posted by Dr. J:
You seem to be pretty well-versed here. You said that one of the admissions questions sought information for mental health as far back as 16. My parents had issues with me being gay and sent me to a shrink for a while back in my younger years, put me on zoloft, etc. Since medical/mental health records are private, how can they really find out?
When I did my bar application, I had to sign a waiver that basically said they could talk to anybody they wanted about me, and that I waived my right to sue anyone based on what was said.
Now, on the mental health issues... the form said something like this. "We'll look over what you've told us, and if necessary, we'll follow-up with you and ask you to obtain medical records for our review." I don't want to say too much about my circumstances in this public forum, but I can say that I was not asked for any medical records, and the Character and Fitness interviewer never even brought up the issue of mental health.
As for stuff like being gay and mild depression (I assume the latter is why you were on Zoloft)? I wouldn't sweat it. They don't care whether you're gay or whether you might have suffered from depression (which I suspect is very common among lawyers). What they want to know is if you're schizophrenic, psychotic, or something like that.

Understand my concern here is not necessarily trying to conceal something, but rather, I can't remember doctors names and dates that far back.

I had some places on my bar application where I couldn't fully answer the question because I keep lousy records, couldn't remember, and didn't know whom to contact to get answers. In those situations, I just told them what I could and explained why I couldn't fully answer the question. And I guess that was acceptable to them, because I passed the Character and Fitness review.
Really, I get the impression that they don't dig very deeply in their background checks (at least in my state) unless there's something on your application that suggests further inquiry might be appropiate. But as some of us have said, don't lie on your bar application. That's asking for big trouble.
If it would make you feel any better, take a look at this:
http://www.ncbex.org/character/Standard01.pdf
That .pdf file is a "generic" bar application used by several states. We don't use it here in Indiana, but regardless of where you apply, it should give you an idea of what you face.
Best of luck in your career plans! From the tenor of your messages, I assume that you haven't yet started law school... if you want to email me privately ([email protected]) and ask me any questions about law school or the bar application process, don't hesitate to blast me an email.
[ 24 October 2002: Message edited by: matt1978 ]

 

[matt1978]

Originally posted by quale:
Well I don't know much about this issue but it was always my impression that the bar exam was not a security clearance, rather a test of your legal knowledge.
Ex-cons can be lawyers like anyone else no?
I think the responses in the other thread have pretty much spelled it out, but just to make it clear, there are several steps to becoming a lawyer.
1) You have to graduate from law school, and to get into law school, you generally need a college degree. (There are actually still a few states where you can get around this--for example, I think that in Maine you can apprentice with a lawyer for a few years instead of going to law school--but this is not a viable option for most people, and I generally don't recommend it.)
2) Most (all?) states require you to take something called the "Multistate Professional Responsibility Exam." It's like a mini-bar exam on legal ethics, and you actually can (and should) take it while still a law student.
3) You'll apply for the bar and undergo some sort of background check (which we've already discussed). I think in my state, it works like this: officially, a Character and Fitness committee decides whether to vote yes or no. But they're too busy to investigate each person, and so they enlist local lawyers to review the applications and conduct the interviews. According to my interviewer, if the interviewer recommends that you pass this portion, the committee automatically passes you. If the interviewer expresses doubts, you could be rejected by the committee, or they could ask you to come to Indianapolis for a hearing before the committee.
4) You'll take the actual "bar exam," which I think is two days in most states. Here in my state, the "bar exam" is really three different tests: the Multistate Performance Test, the Indiana Essay Examination, and the Multistate Bar Examination.
Oh, Wisconsin apparently has this deal where if you graduate from a Wisconsin law school and then want to apply for a Wisconsin law license, you can skip their bar exam. Nice, huh?
5) You spend a few months of torture waiting for your results. And if you pass, you'll be very happy, and assuming everything else (like your background check) went okay, you'll be sworn in and given a license to practice law.
[ 25 October 2002: Message edited by: matt1978 ]

 

[Dr. J]

matt...
pehaps sliding a bit off topic here, but...I have always wondered about wisconsin. Many states will recognize someone coming into their state with a license from another. So, if one were given a license in Wisconsin, would that then be recognized in, say, Washington state, thus creating a sneaky little loophole where one need not ever sit for the bar? I tend to think not, as I remember a friend of mine having to actually apply for the new state's license. Maybe this would be a check on such an evasion. Suddenly Madison is looking mighty appealing
Just food for thought....
Dr. J

 

[matt1978]

Originally posted by Dr. J:
pehaps sliding a bit off topic here, but...I have always wondered about wisconsin. Many states will recognize someone coming into their state with a license from another. So, if one were given a license in Wisconsin, would that then be recognized in, say, Washington state, thus creating a sneaky little loophole where one need not ever sit for the bar?
Reciprocity rules vary from state to state, but I've noticed that they often have two things in common:
1) You have to have practiced law in another state for a significant amount of time, such as five years.
2) You have to be moving a law practice from the "old" state to the "new" state.
So, no, you probably won't be able to attend law school in Wisconsin, get admitted via the "diploma privilege," and then run off to the state of your choice for admission on motion there. :-(
I must confess that while taking the Indiana bar exam, I wondered whether Milwaukee would be a nice place to live and work.
Seriously... the bar exam is no fun. But I survived it, and while looking at the most recent pass list, I saw some names that made me think, "He/she actually passed?" Supposedly the states with the tough bar exams are New York and California. And I think California's pass rate is artificially low because CA is home to a bunch of unaccredited law schools that will admit anyone.
[ 28 October 2002: Message edited by: matt1978 ]

 

[dr.watson]

the one thing you can guarantee will prevent you from admission is failing to disclose something. Shoplifting will not make you ineligible. Not telling them about it will. They may or may not be able to pull your juvenile records, but if they do, and you didn't tell them...you are done. Ohter states will also find out why you were not admitted in the original state. If you have been convicted of a felony (at least in FL, which is one of the toughest states ethically)you CAn still be admitted, after you have had your civil rights restored (it's not automatic here)and after full disclosure to the bar. I know someone who got caught dealing weed in college and had no trouble getting admitted to FL bar after disclosing this. He didn't even require a hearing, just the explanation in the box provided. I have another friend who got denied admission because he mistakenly forgot to disclose a paid speeding ticket. Moral: DO NOT LIE! They might not find out, but you have to sign a form with your app that allows them access to all school records, credit reports, everyhting.

 

[dr.watson]

oh yeah-also for Wisconsin-if you get over a 145 on the MBE in any state you can automatically get admitted to practice in WI.

 

[matt1978]

Originally posted by dr.watson:
They may or may not be able to pull your juvenile records, but if they do, and you didn't tell them...you are done.
Agreed. It's important to note that even if you get something "expunged" from your criminal record (be it juvenile or otherwise), you might still have to disclose it when applying for the bar. A good rule of thumb: when in doubt, disclose it.
[ 31 October 2002: Message edited by: matt1978 ]

 

[DrGonzoESQ]

Just to chime in and agree with the above, DO NOT LIE OR FAIL TO DISCLOSE, if you lie currently about your past that's very telling about your integrety.
I had a colorfull past, nothing too serious, just drinking and raising hell in college and I got admitted no problem. I just disclosed everything, and by way of explanation I just wrote something about youthfull indescretion and growing up. Never heard another word. But, if I'd lied and they found out, I'd have never been admitted.

 

[matt1978]

Originally posted by dr.watson:
oh yeah-also for Wisconsin-if you get over a 145 on the MBE in any state you can automatically get admitted to practice in WI.
I've heard that in Michigan, they grade your Multistate Bar Exam (MBE) first, and if your MBE score is high enough, they'll pass you and not even look at your essays.
A tip for aspiring lawyers out there: when you take the bar exam, you'll want to rock the MBE, because you can make up on the MBE for poor performance on the essay portion. And as previously discussed, there are states where a high enough MBE score by itself can get you a "pass" on the bar exam. You'll need to prepare for the MBE, because it may be the hardest multiple choice test you'll ever take. It has 200 questions, and I've heard nobody has ever scored higher than 190 or so.
In my state, the MBE is 50% of your final score. 20% is the Multistate Performance Test (MPT), which is two made-up work assignments that a new lawyer might be asked to do. 30% is the Indiana Essay Exam (six essays).
I thought the MPT was no big deal--they say "don't get overconfident just because you've clerked in a law office," but if you've done that, and can work quickly and budget your time (and time management is crucial on your exams in law school), I wouldn't worry about the MPT too much. My two assignments were: 1) drafting a persuasive memo; and 2) drafting a will (with a brief explanation of why I chose to handle a problem a certain way).
The MPT and the MBE may be the reasons that I passed the bar, because I'm positive that I bombed two of my six state essays.
[ 31 October 2002: Message edited by: matt1978 ]

 

[DrGonzoESQ]

Just for the law students and lawyers reading this.....My MPT was to write an Memorandum of the Common Law Rule Against Perpetuities as it related to the statutes of fictional state "X". Relate the analysis to a client problem and provide relevant advice, with a brief explanation of the pro's and cons of followin the advice.
I'm LUCKY I did so well on the MBE and essays!!!!
LOL