The arguement of decrimalization of hard drugs causing larger problems is so ignorant

[pbuilder]

Let me make this clear, there should still be penalities for LARGE SCALE HIGH LEVEL dealing these drugs, but not for being a user, or small time dealing to afford your addiction, because in most cases if someone has started the downward spiral of addiction, criminal charges is not going to fix the underlying issue.

Alright, I have had some serious struggles with addiction, and I've always almost felt like it was a silent battle because of the stigmatization, which in turn would lead me to feeling so hopeless about my addictions that I would turn to other drugs (usually harder drugs) to try to cope with the negative consequences of my current addictions. This eventually lead me to opiates, and I'm sure many of you know how dark that path can be. I am currently 7 days clean from all drugs, and have gained so much persepective and hope just reading recovery forums, and how it is not as out of reach as an addict as so many people think. There isn't enough large scale public spread knowledge of solutions to problems like addiction, which are recovery programs, and knowledge that recovery is actually VERY possible, rather then throwing these people in jail (Which is an easy place to get narcotics, the irony)

Anyways, this arguement is pointed out in this russel brand video on addiction at 14:18 in this YouTube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJfUz6zdyM4
I recommend you watch the whole video, Russel Brand puts great insight into the issue of addiction.

He is definetely an inspiration to me as someone who knows I have addiction running in my family, and have struggled with addiction myself.

Anyways, I noticed this comment in the comment section of that video, and definetely agree with it:

"Their arguements about how the smaller crimes of drug possession for a user, lead to the larger crimes of large scale criminal enterprises is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard. If you are born with a predisposition to become an addict, say any family where even a single person in that family has become an addict or was an addict at some point, chances are that person that is born with that predisposition to become an addict, whether it is a gene that causes addiction or otherwise, basically don't get a chance to NOT be an addict if that makes sense? Because they will try that first legal beer, or shot of whisky, and the chasing of a high begins. I don't even think that alcohol should be legal. It should be decriminalized, but not legal. It is a huge gateway drug, and I can speak from experience that if I had more knowledge about the truth depths and dispair that addiction can lead a persons life into, I wouldn't have ever even had that first drink. Honestly, I think the legalization of alchohol in society may as well be consided a crime against humanity. It is the biggest gate way drug on the planet, and the number one killer in many countries, with the acception of tobacco. It should be DECRIMINALIZED, but not legalized, that is why prohibition on alcohol did not work in the early 20th century. Anyways, back to my point.

If hard drugs were decrimalized, and destigmatized and the proper knowledge and compassion was there for that percentage of society that has addiction that runs in there family, then a lot viewer people would become an addict. I never thought once about the legality of my drug use, I just wanted more drugs to cure my problem of not having enough drugs, and not having anything else to turn to as a coping mechanism. If there was a lot more funding spent in public and free programs for people struggling with addiction to turn too, then I guarentee you there would be a drop in crime caused by drug addiction. It is a FACT that studies have shown money put into harm reduction and coping programs for addicts has a durastic impact on the success rates of bringing an addict to recovery. Where as the money spent toward funding police narco agent programs for minor charges like possession barely makes a dent in the recovery of addicts.

If hard drugs were decrimalized, destimatized, and the proper knowledge was there for children to learn as they become adults, then they would never start in the first place, and thus these criminal empires would not be as profitable because I am certain that the number of addiction cases in society would drop. This in turn would lead to less drug related crime in source countries as well, because narcotics would not be as profitable if the demand for them is decreased by prevention in the first place. And prevention is not throwing people in jail."

So those are my thoughts, I'd appreciate anyone elses insite.

I put this in OD because it is the highest traffic sub-forum on here, and I think any drug user should read this and watch this.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

pbuilder, I, of course, agree with you

but this would have been better posted elsewhere

the OD staff will help you

hope your life is going well mate

 

[pbuilder]

pbuilder, I, of course, agree with you

but this would have been better posted elsewhere

the OD staff will help you

hope your life is going well mate

Thanks, I'm quickly tapering off loperamide now (Have only consumed 24mg since I woke up 8 hours ago, where as the first days I was consuming over 100mgs a day) which has helped with a lot of the physical symtoms, but the mental symptoms, not so much unfortunately. I do know that loperamide has stretched out the withdrawal duration as an opiate as well, but it made them much much more bareable then my experiences with cold turkey... But each day I am becoming more and more hopeful that I can stay sober and become a productive member of society, that can bring something positive to this world.

 

[when I dream]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Never heard the word "preprecations" though, I think you may have meant ramifications.

I think there is also much to be said about the negative effects of the prohibition of drugs in and of itself. It skyrockets the price of the substance in question, turning at least some of its users into criminals/thieves in order to pay for the drug. It raises the crime rate because of simple capitalist economics; if there is demand for a product, legal or not, there will be someone out there who will sell it. The illegality of the drug trade removes any sort of legal fall back for disagreements and such between dealers so they resort to violence to get what they want.

I could go on for a long time with numerous other reasons but all these points have been made before so I'll stop lol

Awesome to hear that your battle against addiction is going well man, keep at it

 

[One Thousand Words]

The penalties exist to deter the smart members of society from becoming an addict. Laws do nothing to prevent the 10% of idiots who head down this road.

Sometimes you can't save every one

 

[when I dream]

The penalties exist to deter the smart members of society from becoming an addict. Laws do nothing to prevent the 10% of idiots who head down this road.

Sometimes you can't save every one

Wtf? Since when have we started calling addicts idiots on BL simply because we do what our brains are screaming at us to do?

No, you can't save everyone. But if addicts weren't treated like criminals we would be able to save a fuck load more than we do.

 

[pbuilder]

The penalties exist to deter the smart members of society from becoming an addict. Laws do nothing to prevent the 10% of idiots who head down this road.

Sometimes you can't save every one

You're so ignorant. Every life is valuable. Smart people become addicts all the time, in fact one of the most common causes of addiction is being smart enough that you over analyze everything and this in turn leads to constant worry and anxiety, which is when many people turn to drugs as a coping mechanism. Or having an above average IQ which may result in you having an introverted personality and becoming a social outcast, which creates feels of serious depression and loneliness. I bet you'd be surprised to find out how many people are secretly battling addiction in quiet. It could be your brother, mother, son, and it's assholes like you that keep these people from feeling they can talk to someone about there addiction. This is the number 1 step in recovery.

Ps. Go check statistics for countries that have decriminalised drugs and see how it corresponds with a massive drop in crime. I wonder why? Try re-reading my post, otherwise just please leave the thread. http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight

I wonder how many geniuses never got a chance to make the world a better place because addiction devoured them and they died from an overdose or other drug related issue.

Taking a broken member of society, and making them a productive member of society is the best possible thing for society. And the current solution of throw them in jail CLEARLY isn't working and needs to be reformed.

 

[when I dream]

you're so ignorant. Every life is valuable. Smart people become addicts all the time, in fact one of the most common causes of addiction is being smart enough that you over analyze everything and this in turn leads to constant worry and anxiety, which is when many people turn to drugs as a coping mechanism. I bet you'd be surprised to find out how many people are secretly battling addiction in quiet. It could be your brother, mother, son, and it's assholes like you that keep these people from feeling they can talk to someone about there addiction. This is the number 1 step in recovery.

Ps. Go check statistics for countries that have decriminalised drugs and how it corresponds with a massive drop in crime. I wonder why? Try re-reading my post, otherwise just please leave the thread. http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight

qft

 

[pbuilder]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Never heard the word "preprecations" though, I think you may have meant ramifications.

I think there is also much to be said about the negative effects of the prohibition of drugs in and of itself. It skyrockets the price of the substance in question, turning at least some of its users into criminals/thieves in order to pay for the drug. It raises the crime rate because of simple capitalist economics; if there is demand for a product, legal or not, there will be someone out there who will sell it. The illegality of the drug trade removes any sort of legal fall back for disagreements and such between dealers so they resort to violence to get what they want.

I could go on for a long time with numerous other reasons but all these points have been made before so I'll stop lol

Awesome to hear that your battle against addiction is going well man, keep at it

Sorry, I mean legality, I used the wrong word. Or I mighta meant repercussions. Or precautions, althought that wouldn't really fit. Sometimes I use words that I think I know the defintion of but in fact I'm a bit off haha!

Thanks for the positive response man, and I will keep at it, with every bit of strength I can muster up. I've lost the past 3 years to drug addiction, and I honestly couldn't admit it to myself, even when I turned to the needle I would some how rationalize the use. It's only just this past week I really had an epiphany that made me want with all my heart and brain to get clean.

I wonder how many geniuses never got a chance to make the world a better place because addiction devoured them and they died from an overdose or other drug related issue.

Taking a broken member of society, and making them a productive member of society is the best possible thing for society. And the current solution of throw them in jail CLEARLY isn't working and needs to be reformed.

 

[One Thousand Words]

Wtf? Since when have we started calling addicts idiots on BL simply because we do what our brains are screaming at us to do?

No, you can't save everyone. But if addicts weren't treated like criminals we would be able to save a fuck load more than we do.

So at 12 years old you were sitting in class and your brain was screaming "give me drugs!"?

Were you addicted after your first hit?

Of course not. It takes a concerted effort to become an addict. Sure some people may be more genetically prone to suffer but that does not mean that legalising hard drugs will mean they will avoid using these drugs. They will still be an addict.

It's the selfish addict mind set that creates this unhealthy belief that free access to their drug of choice with no legal consequences will solve all their problems. It doesn't. Being a slave to opiates, legal or not is still slavery

 

[pbuilder]

So at 12 years old you were sitting in class and your brain was screaming "give me drugs!"?

Were you addicted after your first hit?

Of course not. It takes a concerted effort to become an addict. Sure some people may be more genetically prone to suffer but that does not mean that legalising hard drugs will mean they will avoid using these drugs. They will still be an addict.

It's the selfish addict mind set that creates this unhealthy belief that free access to their drug of choice with no legal consequences will solve all their problems. It doesn't. Being a slave to opiates, legal or not is still slavery

Clearly you are too stubborn to read the link I posted. What you have is called your opinion. Opinions can be wrong. Stats show what prohibition has done to society, and it is ALL BAD. Legalization is not the option of course either. Maybe you should do some research on decriminalization.

http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight

 

[Mycophile]

Even if legalizing all drugs meant MORE people used them I would still believe that they should be legalized.

The fact remains that one's body is one's own to do with as they please even if it means harming oneself so long as no one else is directly injured in the process.

All possible services to help an addict both physically and psychologically should be available to all addicts and so should all drugs (so long as they are of sound mind and 18 years of age) and in the end which path they choose to go down should be their own business.

 

[pbuilder]

Even if legalizing all drugs meant MORE people used them I would still believe that they should be legalized.

The fact remains that one's body is one's own to do with as they please even if it means harming oneself so long as no one else is directly injured in the process.

All possible services to help an addict both physically and psychologically should be available to all addicts and so should all drugs (so long as they are of sound mind and 18 years of age) and in the end which path they choose to go down should be their own business.

Legalization doesn't work. Alcohol is the most deadly and destructive drug on the planet statistically. And causes immense amounts of pain to addicts loved ones.

There needs to be some type of regulation on society to avoid us from becoming wild animals. This is just my opinion.

Check out this chart by the way, drugs definetely do cause harm to others. I don't want to turn this into a legalization vs decriminalization battle though, but stats show legalization would be a bad move. The only reason drugs would ever be legalized fully is because a corrupt guvernment wants to tax them and keep all the profits to themselves, reguardless of the effects on society, which is what is currently happening with alcohol.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm

My one acception is cannabis, and potentially some psychedelics.

 

[Runyamire]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OPs stance here. Alcohol may be legal, but alcoholics are still stigmatized, as are people with various mental/emotional disorders. It is the stigma and isolation which keeps us addicts trapped in the cycle. People with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or depression will not get better in jail; and neither do addicts.

Personally I would support full legalization of all substances (with age restrictions) but I know this a radical viewpoint. Decriminalization is the middle ground, it's a starting point of a shift that needs to happen in how society views psychoactive substances. Remove the guilt, fear, and shame; bring this hidden world out of the dark and many of the negative impacts start to fall away. There will still be problems, but they can be addressed in an honest and transparent way instead of sweeping them under the rug.

 

[sekio]

Other Drugs --> Drug Culture

 

[when I dream]

So at 12 years old you were sitting in class and your brain was screaming "give me drugs!"?

Were you addicted after your first hit?

Of course not. It takes a concerted effort to become an addict. Sure some people may be more genetically prone to suffer but that does not mean that legalising hard drugs will mean they will avoid using these drugs. They will still be an addict.

It's the selfish addict mind set that creates this unhealthy belief that free access to their drug of choice with no legal consequences will solve all their problems. It doesn't. Being a slave to opiates, legal or not is still slavery

First of all, drug addiction is medically considered a disease, one that you are born with. Whether you are using just determines whether or not you are in active addiction. Second, I never said legalization would solve all of my, or any addicts problems. I said it would make it much easier to get help for it. Third, if I want to be a slave to opioids (I'm not saying I do, but if I did) then that's my fucking choice. You don't have the right to tell me what I can and cannot put into my body.

 

[pbuilder]

I wholeheartedly agree with the OPs stance here. Alcohol may be legal, but alcoholics are still stigmatized, as are people with various mental/emotional disorders. It is the stigma and isolation which keeps us addicts trapped in the cycle. People with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or depression will not get better in jail; and neither do addicts.

Personally I would support full legalization of all substances (with age restrictions) but I know this a radical viewpoint. Decriminalization is the middle ground, it's a starting point of a shift that needs to happen in how society views psychoactive substances. Remove the guilt, fear, and shame; bring this hidden world out of the dark and many of the negative impacts start to fall away. There will still be problems, but they can be addressed in an honest and transparent way instead of sweeping them under the rug.

Mhmm. People have to look at the bigger picture. The problem is people who have never experienced addiction can't empathize with a persons who's struggled with addiction. This is why a lot of people just don't get it. "Just don't do drugs or you'll go to jail" does not work.

 

[Mycophile]

Legalization doesn't work. Alcohol is the most deadly and destructive drug on the planet statistically. And causes immense amounts of pain to addicts loved ones.

There needs to be some type of regulation on society to avoid us from becoming wild animals. This is just my opinion.

Check out this chart by the way, drugs definetely do cause harm to others. I don't want to turn this into a legalization vs decriminalization battle though, but stats show legalization would be a bad move. The only reason drugs would ever be legalized fully is because a corrupt guvernment wants to tax them and keep all the profits to themselves, reguardless of the effects on society, which is what is currently happening with alcohol.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm

My one acception is cannabis, and potentially some psychedelics.

Could you explain to me why you are for decriminalization over legalization and what the differences are between the two?


I mean, if all drugs were decriminalized then what would it end up meaning to me if I were a really serious addict (I'm not) and I decided I wanted to go out and buy a bunch of heroin, crack, "decriminalized booze", and other shit??

Would I be allowed if I am over the age of 18 to go purchase a moderate amount of any substance for my own personal usage and use it in my own home without driving?

If so, then maybe I could agree with you, but if in any way full grown adults are not allowed to go purchase significant quantities of any drug for personal usage then I'm going to have to be for full legalization.

 

[Mycophile]

And on an entirely different note, I am not quite sure how much I buy that graph in the link you provided for a couple reasons:

1) and most importantly: OF COURSE alcohol is going to be at the top of the list of most dangerous drugs because not only is it harmful to the user but it is the only one on the list that is legal so it is going to be the most widely used.

In the end, how much do we know about how it would compare to the other listed substances if they had the same legal status??


And also 2) Weed is considered to be more harmful than GHB, Ketamine, Benzos, Anabolic steroids, Butane, Ecstasy and a bunch of other clearly much more harmful substances on the list.


I don't know what their rationale is, but based on #1 I have to assume that because it is the 2nd most widely used it is a whole lot easier to attribute all kinds of petty crimes with Cannabis usage making it more "dangerous" than much lesser used drugs like GHB for example which are still probably much more harmful overall.

After all, they say one of the criteria for a substance being dangerous has to do with it's effect on crime, so clearly that must be why weed is considered more dangerous because it causes crime cause it's illegal.

If weed were legalized it would be at the bottom probably, but who knows how much more or less any of the others would be if their status were changed...and also the country, class, race and sex of people would probably play a role as well.

 

[GodandLove]

The penalties exist to deter the smart members of society from becoming an addict. Laws do nothing to prevent the 10% of idiots who head down this road.

Sometimes you can't save every one

That's the stupidest thing I've ever seen come from your screen name OTW.

"Deter smart members of society from becoming addicts"? That doesn't even make sense. If they were smart why would they need laws to deter them in the first place? Deeerrrrr duhhhhh

Use your brain OTW.

God, you can be so stupid sometimes.


Now, onto the actual topic of discussion.

Of course drugs should be decriminalized. This is a no brainier. And contrary to what our pal OTW thinks, the penalties actually exist to deter competition and to create a monopoly on the drug game. Laws have nothing to do with deterring drug use or drug manufacturing. Drugs are and forever will be a HIGH DEMAND commodity. Politicians and Big Pharma knows this. Hell, everyone knows this. Laws are in place to maximize profits on all fronts.

The last thing drug companies like Purdue Pharma wants is someone hombrewing Heroin in the basement. That would get in the way of it's profits, If everyone's homebrewing heroin how in the hell are they going to sell their patented oxycodone? The thing about heroin is, it's VERY VERY cheap and VERY VERY EASY to manufacture. If it were legal or decriminalized the price of street heroin would be about 6 dollars a gram. That's where the Government comes in though. With it's legislative powers it can criminalize heroin increasing it's value 100 fold. It being a "Hot product" allows criminals and drug lords whom are often controlled by the same various shadow bodies of Government that made it illegal in the first place to upmarket the price. While Big pharma is reaping maximum profits from the pharmaceutical game because drugs like heroin are illegal, big government is secretly reaping maximum profits from the illicit drug trade and because these substances are illegal they control and have direct influence on the profit margin.

And that's how you win an Opium war.