Terraforming

[elemenohpee]

Here's a quick introduction to terraforming and the ethics of terraforming. I'd like the discussion to be focused around the ethical implications, but if you have enough scientific knowledge to hold a well founded opinion on the technical feasibility of it, then feel free to post that too.

Basically, the question is, do you think its right or wrong to go messing around with other planets, especially considering how we've screwed this one up so badly? Is it our duty to do this, or is it an abomination unto god to screw with the "natural" environment of another planet? Would the prescence of alien (microbial) life forms weigh into the decision for you? Should we mine the place? Who will get to use the land? Who gets to live there, etc. etc.

On another note, what do you think the implications for humanity will be?

 

[kittyinthedark]

I don't have any ethical problem with it. I don't attach any sort of sacred notion to rocks and dirt, so I really don't care what happens to them. Pretty much we're gonna have to do it once this planet is too fucked up to live here anymore. Humans will always just keep consuming and destroying until we, too, are destroyed.

 

[Tr6ai0ls4]

Basically, the question is, do you think its right or wrong to go messing around with other planets, especially considering how we've screwed this one up so badly?

Considering that I don think that we "screwed this one up so badly". I wouldn't have a problem with us going elsewhere. I pretty much dont have a problem with any of the things you mentioned. I'm all for it. It would be kind of cool to go live on another planet for a while.

 

[Pegasus]

I think it is the next logical step.

About that article, it seems to be a little biased... Take this for example:

Fogg also devised definitions for candidate planets of varying degrees of human compatibility:

* Habitable Planet (HP): A world with an environment sufficiently similar to the Earth as to allow comfortable and free human habitation.
* Biocompatible Planet (BP): A planet possessing the necessary physical parameters for life to flourish on its surface. If initially lifeless, then such a world could host a biosphere of considerable complexity without the need for terraforming.
* Easily Terraformable Planet (ETP): A planet that might be rendered biocompatible, or possibly habitable, and maintained so by modest planetary engineering techniques and with the limited resources of a starship or robot precursor mission.

Fogg designates Mars as having been a biocompatible planet in its youth, but not being in any of these three categories in its present state, since it could only be terraformed with relatively greater difficulty.

Nevertheless, Mars is the most feasible local planet for terraforming. Mars Society founder Robert Zubrin has produced a plan for a Mars return mission called Mars Direct that would set up a permanent human presence on Mars and steer efforts towards eventual terraformation.

I wouldn't think of Mars to be the most likely celestial body to go after... Something like Europa seems more likely to me.

The easiest thing would be to find a habitable planet, of course.

 

[Pegasus]

Related reading (Planetary habitability).

 

[acausal]

I don't have any ethical issues with this... however, I think it's a little bit less of an issue right now than what's happening right here on earth.

kittyinthedark said we're going to need to do it eventually, as human nature is stated. we consume, we take up space. we consume.

but i believe that at the point of earth-today, we no longer have enough time to develop terraforming processes on other planets. we need to work on our own... stabilizing this environment.... .. unless we can figure out something on mars... but even then. i think that the earth is do for mass-extinction, sometimes.

sorry for my rant.

i'll look at the site you linked..

 

[Akoto]

If theres nothing on Mars to screw up any more then it already is, then whats the problem?

Like basicly, saying something is "screwed up" really means "screwed up for people/other life", but if theres no life there to begin with, who cares? Just so long as we dont blow it up and fuck up our orbit.

 

[elemenohpee]

Well what I meant was, the minute we go messing around with it, its not pure anymore, its been contaminated by human influence. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but some people might value a pristine place like that. I do find something appealing about it, but maybe its just for aesthetics. In any case, its not so important to me that I wouldn't want to develop it.

 

[Akoto]

I suppose it is concievable that people will have eventualy terraformed so many planets that we have a similar problem that we have now when the western explorers came over and just started cutting down trees cause they were in the way but not seeing the long term effects of this.

However, with a planet, it will be so completely separate from Earth that even if we made Mars totaly radioactive and bald barren to the core such that nothing could ever grow or prosper of even be of use there (assuming its mass doesnt change significantly) then we have nothing to worry about back home.

 

[Hatious]

I see no real ethical problems in attempting to alter a planet. I see many ethical problems with actually attempting to transfer human life to another planet.

I think it is unlikely that terraforming will ever be accomplished to the point where another planet can be used to harbor human life on any large scale. Technological knowledge is inadequate for this situation to be realized anytime soon. Although, I certainly think it should be explored as an option. I also think human nature would prevent the transfer of human life to another planet.

The physical conditions necessary to facilitate human on earth are so innately connected to the human mind that I fear what would happen psychologically to humans if life were ever transferred permanently.

 

[Akoto]

I also think human nature would prevent the transfer of human life to another planet.

The physical conditions necessary to facilitate human on earth are so innately connected to the human mind that I fear what would happen psychologically to humans if life were ever transferred permanently.

Thats obviously a very hard thing to prove one way or the other, but if you consider the amazing diversity of climates on just this planet (3 states of water, high mountains, low deserts, hot graslands, barren tundra, etc) and people have managed to addapt to all of thoes places quite well, and even before the invent of mondern technology such as heating coils and water filters.

Assuming all the nessesities were accounted for, I dont see any reason we couldnt one day have a city on Mars. Its really not much different from Earth in terms of material make up or even size.

 

[elemenohpee]

I also think human nature would prevent the transfer of human life to another planet.

The physical conditions necessary to facilitate human on earth are so innately connected to the human mind that I fear what would happen psychologically to humans if life were ever transferred permanently.

In line with what Akoto said, one of the primary drives of all life, not just human, is the desire to branch out and gain access to new resources. What specifically about human nature do you see preventing the spread to other planets/solar systems/galaxies?

 

[qwedsa]

Well what I meant was, the minute we go messing around with it, its not pure anymore, its been contaminated by human influence. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but some people might value a pristine place like that. I do find something appealing about it, but maybe its just for aesthetics. In any case, its not so important to me that I wouldn't want to develop it.

"that giant round rock is so pretty, we should never touch it" that doesnt make any sense to me...

 

[Zero the hero]

Well what I meant was, the minute we go messing around with it, its not pure anymore, its been contaminated by human influence.

Who gives a fuck, we'll do what we have to to survive and thrive, only the strong survive, the rest perish...

 

[elemenohpee]

"that giant round rock is so pretty, we should never touch it" that doesnt make any sense to me...

Think about the forces involved in the creation of that planet, the force it carries as it orbits the sun. There's just something majestic about it, its a humbling experience to think about it. Like I said, I don't think this should get in the way of us colonizing, say, Mars. But I do think it would be nice to keep someplaces natural, kind of like a planentary state park.

Who gives a fuck, we'll do what we have to to survive and thrive, only the strong survive, the rest perish...

If a bacterium could construct a cogent argument, this is the one it would use...

 

[Hatious]

Thats obviously a very hard thing to prove one way or the other, but if you consider the amazing diversity of climates on just this planet (3 states of water, high mountains, low deserts, hot graslands, barren tundra, etc) and people have managed to addapt to all of thoes places quite well, and even before the invent of mondern technology such as heating coils and water filters.

Assuming all the nessesities were accounted for, I dont see any reason we couldnt one day have a city on Mars. Its really not much different from Earth in terms of material make up or even size.

All of those places, those different climates and locations all have a single common denominator. Earth. By Earth, I not only mean the physical world in which we live but also the mental and cognitive capacity innately within ourselves. Our cognitive state is ultimately determined by our physical state (whatever that may actually be). Our physical state is the sort of basis that provides for our mental state.

Variations in gravity are/is a major obstacle. Since gravity is poorly understood, it will be hard to fully account for the uncertainties in how gravity will interact with the human body in its physical state; and, therefore how gravity will determine the state of physical growth in human beings and consequently our state of mental capacity.

The human body is very resilient. It is adaptable. There is a great amount flux in what the human body can withstand. However, taking the human body outside of the environment in which it is created i.e. what is responsible for the physical and mental state of the human being, presents a number of problems.

These problems may not be immediate. They could take decades, perhaps hundreds of years to develop.

In line with what Akoto said, one of the primary drives of all life, not just human, is the desire to branch out and gain access to new resources. What specifically about human nature do you see preventing the spread to other planets/solar systems/galaxies?

I agree to an extent. I believe that humans are likely to exploit resources rather than to tame (so to speak) foreign environments.

The problem with extending human life, to separate planets or planetary systems, involves a level of human communication and organization. It is very difficult for us to organize and effectively communicate ideas within our own borders. To actually organize an effective movement of the collective human population would require an effort never seen in human events. No human population has been able to mass an amount of influence relative to the size of the population it intends to control in order to make something like this happen. In other words… convincing the majority humans to engage in the transfer of human life is unprecedented this situation. It will prove much more difficult than even the most problematic situations that plague human existence.

 

[elemenohpee]

You raise a very good point about the physiological aspects. The human mind is flexible enough to adapt, but it seems the human body has been hardwired and fined tuned to the exact specifications of earth. I seem to remember reading somewhere about how gravity is important for the developing fetus to orient itself or something. Anyways, point taken. Maybe the scope of the discussion could be widened to address any problems we may encounter while traveling to/living on other planets?

 

[Pegasus]

The human body is very resilient. It is adaptable. There is a great amount flux in what the human body can withstand. However, taking the human body outside of the environment in which it is created i.e. what is responsible for the physical and mental state of the human being, presents a number of problems.

These problems may not be immediate. They could take decades, perhaps hundreds of years to develop.

I disagree that the problem may take hundreds of years to develop. I believe the problem would come out quickly if there was one (what kind of problems do you forsee?), and in 100 years, we would be well on the way to adapting to the new environment.

I believe that humans would be able to make a transition like this, although it may be a slow, gradual process.

 

[Pegasus]

To actually organize an effective movement of the collective human population would require an effort never seen in human events. No human population has been able to mass an amount of influence relative to the size of the population it intends to control in order to make something like this happen. In other words… convincing the majority humans to engage in the transfer of human life is unprecedented this situation. It will prove much more difficult than even the most problematic situations that plague human existence.

Unprecedented times, these are! I'm optimistic; maybe wrongfully so, but being pessimistic isn't going to get us anywhere. (Not that you are being pessimistic; I'm speaking generally)

 

[Pegasus]

You raise a very good point about the physiological aspects. The human mind is flexible enough to adapt, but it seems the human body has been hardwired and fined tuned to the exact specifications of earth. I seem to remember reading somewhere about how gravity is important for the developing fetus to orient itself or something. Anyways, point taken. Maybe the scope of the discussion could be widened to address any problems we may encounter while traveling to/living on other planets?

I think there are a whole slew of problems that we would face in transferring onto another planet... We would probably have to emulate earth-like conditions for starters, and slowly adapt the humans to the alien planet's conditions. Who knows what technology, genetic engineering, etc that will eventually be employed to get people to thrive on the new planets, but I certainley think the first goal would be to recreate earth-like conditions on the new planet.