Misc supplements for long term depression (possibly drug and MDMA induced)

[nosher1]

Hello,

I have been suffering from depression and anxiety for about 20 years (it came out when I went away to college and I had a mental breakdown). I have tried countless psychiatric drugs over the years from just about every drug class. Often, when I take a new drug, I get some kind of boost during the first few days or weeks where I feel much, much, better, but then I always relapse after a few days.

About 15 years ago, I experimented with MDMA a bit, but it didn't seem to affect me as much as other people, although I did enjoy it a lot. But the hangover was so terrible I did not take it often.

About 10 years ago, I tried the MAO inhibitor Parnate and it worked great for about a week or so, but I couldn't sustain the response, and I could not tolerate much higher doses due to side effects including dizziness. I added lithium to it to try to boost it, and I was doing OK, but not great. Then I switched to SAM-e and within 1 week, I was doing great, probably the best I have felt in my life.

I felt awesome for a few weeks, and the SAM-e started to fade a little, but I was still doing pretty well. So I thought to myself at the time, now that my brain is finally awake for the first time in my life, I should take MDMA because I will really be able to enjoy like the people I know who love it. Well, I lived to regret that decision because I had a very bad reaction to the MDMA - I didn't feel anything good at all and I got very sleepy and anxious. My friend who took it with me said he felt like the MDMA was good stuff, so I think the problem was me, not the drug. I woke up the next day with a horrible headache that lasted 3 days and I was extremely anxious. The SAM-e was no longer working and I went into the worst depression of my life. I have not found any significant relieve since then. If I go for a while without taking SAM-e and then I start taking it again, I feel good for a day or so and then I feel horrible.

Now, 10 years later, I still feel like crap 99% of the time. I am in a fairly constant anxious, foggy, anhedonic state with symptoms of chronic underarm sweating and heartburn.

I recently was reading about nootropics and I thought it would be worth a shot to help with my mood. I ready that DMAE was good for brain fog, in particular, and it is involved with methylation, like SAM-e is. I started DMAE 10 days ago, and I have definitely felt waves of feeling much better a times, along with waves of feeling weird and anxious in a creepy kind of way. I have been taking 6 x 351 mg DMAE bitartrate capsules per day (each capsule is 130 mg pure DMAE).

Can people out there recommend other supplements for chronic mood problems, especially related to a problem that was severely exacerbated by combining MDMA with SAM-e? I have been reading forums online and I am thinking about adding ALCAR/ALA along with maybe Piracetam with a choline source. Any advise or experiences would be deeply appreciated.

Thanks!
Norman

 

[sekio]

Try a healthy diet, excercise, and rewarding social or individual activities not involving drugs.

 

[nosher1]

I have tried exercise and I do eat healthy. I have a "rewarding" life in that I have friends and family that I love. The problem is that it feels like my brain is fried and it needs to be repaired somehow. I just don't feel joy or happiness at all, and I almost never enjoy anything. Once in a blue moon, at random, I will feel OK for an hour or so, but other than those rare times, I really don't enjoy anything. I don't drink alcohol often, but sometimes, if I drink a heavy amount (12 shots or so) I can feel happy for a short time (sometimes), but the hangover is absolutely horrible and I feel like crap for 2 to 3 days. I only drink maybe 4 or 5 times per year. I really think there is a supplement or combination of supplements that can "cure" me if I could just find it, which is why I made the post.

Thanks

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Have you tried an NMDA antagonist, like ketamine? Ketamine has been shown to have long-lasting anti-depressant effects, which extend generously beyond the acute effects.

I believe this should work well for you, as you have reported ethanol in a high dosage works temporarily (ethanol has an NMDA antagonist effect as well, although this is not the only major pharmacological effect of ethanol).

 

[sdf]

Of all the ones you listed, Acetyl-L-Carnitine is probably the cheapest one with the most reliable effects. High EPA Omega-3 supplements are also great both for depression and the brain fog if you take them for several weeks (but get the enteric coated ones if you have heartburn). You might also benefit from L-Tryptophan if you've caused some serotonin deficiency/excitotoxicity with the MDMA+SAME .. but don't waste your time or money on 5-HTP.

If you want to try another MAOI, you might like Nardil more than Parnate... it's much easier to tolerate the higher doses. Also, selegiline or the EMSAM patches can help with cognitive symptoms and depression... plus it has some possible neuroprotective features as well (in addition to the ones all MAOIs have). Just don't mix either with SAME. And don't add L-Tryptophan either unless your doctor knows quite a bit about MAOI copharmacy.

 

[CaPoNe.]

Piracetam and acetyl-l-carnitine helped me out alot after abusing mdma and being mentally slow and depressed

 

[chitown rollin]

Sounds to me like it's not the MDMA at all. Honestly I would stop thinking about that because when I stopped rolling I found that thinking about the effects that MDMA had on me and my brain only made it worse, when I just ignored it and lived my everyday normal life everything was fine. 10 years is more than enough time to recover from only doing ecstasy a few times like you claim. My pill count must be nearing towards 500 and I'm only at a four an a half month break feeling A+.

 

[TheLostBoys]

Now, 10 years later, I still feel like crap 99% of the time. I am in a fairly constant anxious, foggy, anhedonic state with symptoms of chronic underarm sweating and heartburn.

Im really surprised you are feeling the effects after so long. I too felt effects like what you stated above but not more than 6 months.

It seems the MDMA you took screwed up your Serotonin levels. MDMA can cause severe depression & the symptoms you describe. I took a bad MDMA pill back in 1998 & my heart was beating fast for like a month. I went in for an EKG & all that stuff but there was nothing wrong with me, just severe anxiety it seemed. I never tried MDMA again since then & never will again in my life, no matter how good the stuff is.

Once you took the SAM-e & were feeling the best you ever felt, you should have never tried MDMA again. Like the one guy mentioned above, Omega-3 are good supplements.

I will ask a cousin of mine, hes a doctor & see if he knows anything about this & see if he knows anything that could be taken to replenish your brain & bring it back to where it was.

 

[TheLostBoys]

Sounds to me like it's not the MDMA at all. Honestly I would stop thinking about that because when I stopped rolling I found that thinking about the effects that MDMA had on me and my brain only made it worse, when I just ignored it and lived my everyday normal life everything was fine. 10 years is more than enough time to recover from only doing ecstasy a few times like you claim. My pill count must be nearing towards 500 and I'm only at a four an a half month break feeling A+.

Not everyones the same & each individual brain works differently. It does boggle my mind tho that he still feels this way after a 10 year hiatus from MDMA & hes hoping a concoction of supplements will cure him. I for one think the brain is a powerful mechanism that can cure itself if we ourselves put our minds to it.

 

[sdf]

Not everyones the same & each individual brain works differently

That's exactly right. It has much more to do with the state of your brain/how much free serotonin is swimming around/the density of serotonin receptors/etc. than how many times one rolls. I've had weird reactions with SAMe and certain psychedelics that make me think that the combination was probably the most damaging part.

But it's far from hopeless. There's a really good psychopharmacology book written by Dr. Steven Stahl in which he talks about all the reasons why SSRIs don't work the same way for everyone and what to do about that. (Particularly what to do when there's been dysfunction or depletion of serotonin.)

The most relevant of his suggestions: 5-HT1A partial agonists like Buspar or the antihypertensive drug pindolol can augment other serotonin promoting drugs when there's dysfunction.(see below for some relevant research)

From Wikipedia but well-cited:
About Buspar: Although not related to clinical indications, it is interesting that in experimental trials with rodents, buspirone has been shown to improve spatial learning and memory after traumatic brain injury (TBI). Such findings may have clinical relevance to TBI patients.

And about the 5-HT1A receptor (paraphrased): desensitization and increased postsynaptic activation has been shown to be a major mediator in the therapeutic benefits of serotonin precursors like L-tryptophan and 5-HTP [as well as prescription antidepressants of every class]. 5-HT1A activation likely plays a significant role in the positive effects of serotonin releasing agents like MDMA as well.

(If you read the article on the different types of 5-HT1A receptors found in the brain, it gives you a good sense of why full activation can also cause many undesirable effects whereas partial agonists may offer a better balance.)

 

[nosher1]

Thanks for all of the info. I tried Buspar many years ago both by itself and with Zoloft and it did not really help me and made me feel very dizzy/weak. I've been taking tryptophan every night for about the last year. Tryptophan is very mildly relaxing and does make me a little sleepy, but it completely wears off by morning and I don't feel any benefit from it during the day, as far as I can tell.

I stopped taking the DMAE yesterday because I think it was exacerbating my anxiety, or perhaps I was taking too much - 2.1 grams/day of bitartrate which equals 780 mg pure DMAE. I felt extremely wired. I started taking ALCAR with ALA yesterday and I did feel a little better within a couple of hours. Today I did notice some more energy and a little less anxiety, but I do not feel dramatically improved at this point. How long does it typically take for ALCAR to have a big impact on depression and anxiety? Right now, I am taking 1 gram ALCAR/day and 400 mg ALA/day.

In regards to what Captain.Heroin wrote, I have read about the benefits of Ketamine and I have scoured the Internet, trying to find a doctor who is prescribing low-dose Ketamine for depression, and I have not been able to find a single doctor who does it. There is a doctor who prescribes it for a one-tome psychedelic experience, but not for the long term management of depression. If anyone out there knows of a doctor who prescribes Ketamine for depression (preferably in the US since that is where I am) please let me know. I suppose I could buy it from a drug dealer on the black market, but I really don't know where to find it and I would be concerned regarding the dosage and purity. It's actually been incredibly frustrating that I can't get Ketamine prescribed to me since it would likely help me. I have a very close friend who is a psychiatrist and he said he can't help me in regards to Ketamine because if something happens to go wrong, he could lose his medical license, even if I sign a release/waiver.

Thanks,
Norman

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Thanks for all of the info. I tried Buspar many years ago both by itself and with Zoloft and it did not really help me and made me feel very dizzy/weak. I've been taking tryptophan every night for about the last year. Tryptophan is very mildly relaxing and does make me a little sleepy, but it completely wears off by morning and I don't feel any benefit from it during the day, as far as I can tell.

Zoloft itself can cause you to feel dizzy and weak, while on it and also if you are coming off of the medication, which can take a while until you feel back to normal. However if you tried the first drug before Zoloft you should be accurate in assuming that this substance had this effect on you.

I stopped taking the DMAE yesterday because I think it was exacerbating my anxiety, or perhaps I was taking too much - 2.1 grams/day of bitartrate which equals 780 mg pure DMAE. I felt extremely wired.

Probably too high of a dosage; do you have an accurate enough way to measure out this dosage? I have no experience with DMAE and wouldn't use it to be honest.

In regards to what Captain.Heroin wrote, I have read about the benefits of Ketamine and I have scoured the Internet, trying to find a doctor who is prescribing low-dose Ketamine for depression, and I have not been able to find a single doctor who does it. There is a doctor who prescribes it for a one-tome psychedelic experience, but not for the long term management of depression. If anyone out there knows of a doctor who prescribes Ketamine for depression (preferably in the US since that is where I am) please let me know. I suppose I could buy it from a drug dealer on the black market, but I really don't know where to find it and I would be concerned regarding the dosage and purity. It's actually been incredibly frustrating that I can't get Ketamine prescribed to me since it would likely help me. I have a very close friend who is a psychiatrist and he said he can't help me in regards to Ketamine because if something happens to go wrong, he could lose his medical license, even if I sign a release/waiver.

Thanks,
Norman

Norman, have you considered the one time experience? It can have a really long lasting effect, and if anything, the depression could return months down the line but should be overall less intense than before. Responsible usage of ketamine in this fashion is really beneficial while at the same time over-usage can be detrimental.

If you choose to go down this route, please be certain you aren't likely to want to repeat the experience many more times over.

I think it is amazing that a doctor was willing to let you try it once, and if you only want to do this sort of experience once per year, I doubt the doctor would for any reason be skeptical of this, since he is letting you try it in the first place.

One you have a history of treatment with a doctor over any substance, it can be easier to find another doctor who is willing to continue the treatment.

Overall - there are great suggestions in this thread that extend beyond NMDA receptor antagonists; and we also know that learning and memory is closely tied into the NMDA receptor. I just want to highly stress getting a healthy balance of a well planned and executed dietary regimen along with exercise, before going any pharmaceutical route. This is a really key and integral part to battling common neurological based problems in the United States, since as many as one in three adults don't get any exercise for a month or longer at a time. This has a detrimental effect on the way individuals feel about themselves in direct and indirect ways.

 

[nosher1]

Captain.Heroin, thanks for your post. I am touched that you and others have taken the time to try to help me.

It's fairly impractical for me to do this Ketamine experience because it requires me signing on for numerous talk sessions building up to the 1 Ketamine trip, and the doctor is not local to me, so it requires serious travel each time I would go. If I could just travel once and do the Ketamine trip, I would definitely do it. But I would have to make numerous visits over months first. I'm not optimistic about a 1 time high dose Ketamine trip helping me anyway because I have already tripped many times in the past, mostly on LSD, once on mushrooms, and once on LSD and MDMA combined (that was the most mind blowing experience of my life. I literally felt like I was an eternal being and I knew what it felt like to actually be dead and in heaven). Ketamine typically requires repeated administration to provide lasting anti-depressant effects, and the doctor says he does not offer repeated dosing and that it's just a 1 time experience for the trip itself.

I definitely feel like I have had several amazing psychedelic experiences and I feel that I fully understand what that all about. It transformed me from being an atheist into being a fairly spiritual person. The problem is that when I have tripped, at least a portion of the trip has typically been awesome, but the depression/anxiety always came back when I woke up the next day.

My first "trip" was when I took LSD in the midst of my original breakdown 20 years ago. The LSD was definitely bad stuff and I had a horrible time. Nobody I was with actually tripped and everyone felt pretty bad on it. I think it was that experience that possibly put me over the edge 20 years ago. Had it been good stuff, my life would probably be totally different right now. I haven't taken hallucinogens in quite a while - about 13 years.

It would really love to try low dose Ketamine treatment for depression, but I can't find anyone offering it. For now, I'll try the ALCAR/ALA combo and see how it goes. I've been taking it for a few days and I think I feel a little better. The 2nd day I had some extremely intense anxiety, much more than usual, but that pretty much passed. I'm taking 1 gram ALCAR / day along with 400 mg ALA. I also take magnesium and fish oil. Maybe I'll get lucky with this combo.

Thanks!
Norman

 

[nosher1]

Which form of phenylalanine for depression, L or DL?

Hello everyone,

For my long term, treatment resistant depression/ahedonia/anxiety, I started taking ALCAR about 2 weeks ago, 1 gram per day, along with 400 mg ALA. That has helped a bit and gave me some energy, but the anhedonia and anxiety were still very much present.

About 48 hours ago, I took 500 mg L-phenylalanine, and took another 500 mg dose a few hours later. I definitely felt it somewhat stimulating all evening, but otherwise my mood was not much better. The next day, I took a 1 gram dose L-phenylalanine in the morning, and by early evening, I was actually feeling MUCH better and found myself thinking that I may have actually found the cure for my chronic mood problems that go back 20 years. This morning when I woke up, I still felt much improved from my normal, depressed self, and I took a 1 gram dose of L-phenylalanine. I'll probably take another 1 gram dose this afternoon.

I started doing more research on the web, and I see some health experts recommending L-phenylalanine while others recommend DL-phenylalanine (racemic mixture) for depression/anxiety. I would very much appreciate feedback regarding experiences of other people and any resources that could help me decide with form of phenylalanine is better for my mood problems. Also, I would really love to get some recommendations regarding the right dosage.

From what I understand, D-phenylalanine is not naturally occurring and is man-made/synthetic, so that makes me a little nervous in terms of safety. But I would still take that form if it was more likely to help me in the long run. I don't suffer from any significant chronic pain, which I have read the D form works particularly well for.

Also, I was wondering if the ALCAR and ALA have a synergistic effect with phenylalanine or if the mood benefits I am getting right now are mainly just from the phenylalanine. I'm curious if I would be just as well off taking phenylalanine alone.

Right now, I'm just really terrified that the benefits I'm getting now are soon going to wear off. That has happened to me in the past with several other supplements/medications where I get a mood boost early on, but then it fades quickly.

Thanks!
Norman

 

[SunThatShines]

Supplements to help with depression from MDMA,Amphetamine, and Alcohol depression:

1. Gabapentin. (It's in the protocal for the expensive drug treatment for meth and heroin addicts.) I use it just to keep my mood stable, and it works like a charm. Should be easy to get a prescription for it sense it is not a scheduled substance.

2. 5-HTP. (It seems to work, but at the same time, it will not help severe depression IMO.)

3. Protein shakes (Yes, thats what I said! Protein shakes are full of amino acids along with other vitamins and nutrients.)

4. Omega 3 (Tuna, Fish Oil capsules.. They actually do help with focus, and getting rid of that brain "fog", and they also help with erection )

5. Multi Vitamin (Obviously your body needs these vitamins to function properly.)

 

[Lazyscience]

really nosher1, theres absolutely no reason to believe that the mdma was the cause of the depression/anxiety.

 

[nosher1]

Feeling better on Phenylalanine!

Hello,

I tried taking ALCAR (1 gram/day) plus ALA (400 mg/day) and it did not provide relief from my depression/anxiety/anhedonia and I think it probably made me feel worse, so I quit taking them.

Then, I started taking L-Phenylalanine and I started feeling much better! I started at 1 gram per day for a few days and I have worked my way up to 4 grams per day (2 grams on an empty stomach, twice per day). I have been taking it for a total of 3 weeks and my mood is not perfect but MUCH improved, and I feel like I am still improving. I am very pleased because I tried L-Tyrosine in the past and that made me feel better for maybe a day or two and then stopped working. The Phenylalanine is working WAY better than Tyrosine, I'm guessing due to the fact that Phenylalanine crosses the blood brain barrier more readily.

I have a couple of questions I was hoping I could get help with:

1. Is L-Phenylalanine the best form of Phenylalanine for mood? I asked a doctor experienced with supplements and she said that the L form is best for depression/anxiety/anhedonia and she only recommends the DL form if someone has chronic pain. Since I don't have chronic pain, she recommended the L form. Does anyone have experience or advice regarding using the L versus DL form for treating mood problems? Also, what dosages work best?

2. I am experiencing severe sexual dysfunction on L-Phenylalanine, which was totally unexpected. I am experiencing both impotence and anorgasmia (numbness). I would say the severity is close to what I have experienced on SSRIs such as Prozac, which I think is very strange since Phenylalanine supposedly does not directly act on serotonin. When I search online I am unable to find any discussion whatsoever of Phenylalanine causing sexual dysfunction. Has anyone heard of or experienced this? Am I a freak of nature? I am 100% certain that my sexual probglems are being caused by Phenylalanine. It's the only change I have made. I am not going to quit, though, because my mood is better. I am going to wait it out and hope the sexual issues will get better over time.

Thanks!
Norman

 

[bben]

curcumin (bcm 95 forumula) and N-acetycyteine where the only things that helped my mdma induced depression....

 

[nosher1]

I recently bought a bottle of curcumin that contains BCM-95 which is a patented curcumin formulation. The capsules are 400 mg each. Does anyone have advice on how many capsules I should take per day for my situation of depression that was made much worse by MDMA many years ago? Also, how long does it take for curcumin to start working? Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I recently bought a bottle of curcumin that contains BCM-95 which is a patented curcumin formulation. The capsules are 400 mg each. Does anyone have advice on how many capsules I should take per day for my situation of depression that was made much worse by MDMA many years ago? Also, how long does it take for curcumin to start working? Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

I have no idea. However, I would suggest that you focus on exercising often, this should help as well!

Good luck!