Stimulants Supplements and Length of Tolerance Break

[PsychonautRyan]

So I'm planning a two-to-three week tolerance break from Adderall, counting 18 mg. of Concerta as being roughly equal to Adderall XR 10 mg., my daily dose of amphetamines was 20 to 30 milligrams per day, but I've tapered down to 10 or 15 mg. daily, and I was off today, and between sleeping 15 hours and eating a lot, I didn't feel all that shitty

Anyway, when I first tried Adderall in March, I took 20 mg. an hour before work, and I had that rush of euphoria, confidence, being motivated to clean everything, involuntary jaw-grinding, hyper-focus/tunnel-vision concentration, and just feeling really awesome, it lasted in excess of eight hours and I wasn't able to sleep until 3 or 4 am. Even after a tolerance break that was three or four weeks long, when I took 20 mg. again, I only had a mild mood lift, feeling happier, sociable and charming/clever, but without that driven, overwhelming "rushing" feeling from the first time.

Short of taking 30 to 40 mg at once, and continually increasing the dosage, would I have to take an even longer tolerance break or would supplementation help? Or should I just settle that the first high is gone forever ?

Here's a list of supplements that I'm going to take:
L-Tyrosine
DXM
Magnesium
Omega-3 fish oil
St. John's wort
Ginkgo biloba
Vitamin B-100 complex

Aside from DXM and magnesium, the other supplements are known to naturally increase dopamine production, does that increase receptor upregulation as well?

 

[PsychonautRyan]

Anyone?

 

[morphonorconic]

5-htp.

Dopamine and norepinephrine aren't the only [major] neurotransmitters involved that are depleted from amphetamine use. Serotonin is critical for balance and well being. Although supplements like l-tyrosine and 5-htp can help a great deal, the process of restoring normal brain function is extremely complex, and cannot be done by simply boosting specific monoamine concentrations with supplements.

I wouldn't mess with the St. John's Wort, but everything else will be beneficial. But above all else you should eat well, get some exercise, and sleep. These things will have more of a positive impact than anything else.

 

[mrflowers00]

no high on any drug will ever be as strong, enjoyable, and euphoric as the first high was no matter how long of a tolerance break you take sorry but chasing that first high is how people become addicted

 

[Tryptamino]

NMDA antagonists don't reduce your tolerance, they prevent the development of tolerance, and it only works if you take the NMDA antagonists (DXM, magnesium, in your case) with the other drugs (adderall and concerta in your case). Also I'd go easy on the l-tyrosine.

 

[PsychonautRyan]

But it's been observed that prolonged use of NMDA antagonists, such as ketamine or DXM, eventually causes upregulation of dopamine, so in addition to preventing tolerance, wouldn't it reverse the accumulation of tolerance?

 

[morphonorconic]

^Theoretically yes. But you should probably lower your expectations. Taking dextromethorphan daily for a few weeks, regardless of the dose, will not have any significant impact. DXM is a weak NMDA antagonist anyway, but even using ketamine the same way would likely fail to produce any noteworthy effect in terms of tolerance reversal. Also consider that all the time and effort you shovel into this recovery project will be negated the moment you take a single dose of amphetamine. And I don't mean to sound cynical. It's just that we've all either tried or watched others attempt to take "breaks" to lower tolerance from whatever drug, and the results are at best marginal and fleeting; generally they end in frustration and dissatisfaction, and are an overall disappointment, albeit one that is good for you.

Also, Bigfan makes a good point. l-tyrosine can have a tremendous and positive impact on how you feel (mood, motivation, etc) while taking a break from regular stimulant use. But DO NOT over do it. Taking tyrosine, which rapidly converts to levodopa, the immediate precursor to dopamine and subsequently epinephrine/norepinephrine, is basically tampering with your sanity. Levodopa has many unpleasant side effects, and dopamine/norepinephrine deficit from stimulant use is of course undesirable, but is also a normal phenomenon and one that corrects itself rather easily. But too much dopamine can result in serious adverse effects, primarily psychosis-like symptoms, so use it sparingly. When one tablet makes you feel "okay," resist the urge to feel "better" by taking another, because it has the potential to make things very uncomfortable... to make you feel "worse."

 

[Moredopamine]

Even with a few weeks off you might take the first dose and feel some of the effects you felt the first time, but on the second, third day etc you'll notice the positive effects decreasing even faster than when you originally started using.

Amphetamine tolerance is next to impossible to get down to your original levels, no matter how many fancy supplements you throw at the problem.

And even if you manage to get something resembling your first high back after months off and taking $100s of dollar of supplements, is it really worth it? Why spend so much effort trying to get back an 8 hour high? The cost benefit analysis is abysmal. It's not about whether getting your first high back is possible - it's about asking yourself if it's even worth it.

Obviously the best way to cheat this problem is to take a higher dose/different ROA/stronger stimulant, but that will come at the cost of 1) more side effects and 2) an eventual downward spiral into a nasty speed addiction... all for an 8 hour high.

But it's been observed that prolonged use of NMDA antagonists, such as ketamine or DXM, eventually causes upregulation of dopamine, so in addition to preventing tolerance, wouldn't it reverse the accumulation of tolerance?

Don't get too fixated on reading studies about how chemical X induces modulation of neurotransmitter system Y with prolonged use and how that can theoretically enhance or restore the effects of drugs Z. All that theoretical neurobabble is interesting and all, but until some scientific agency approves a drug specifically for amphetamine tolerance reduction (which they probably won't), I wouldn't waste my money.

 

[morphonorconic]

^Exactly. This.

That first dose will be exceptional, but the next and every additional dose after that will be just like it was before stopping.

All the money and the time and the hassle... All that sacrificial effort in the search to reclaim the elusive first high which will never be found...

 

[PsychonautRyan]

I agree with that, you can't constantly chase the high in conjunction with using it to improve ADHD symptoms at school and work, without becoming dependent, and ending up even more strung-out in the long run. Though I've heard that taking even longer breaks (a few to several months), anecdotally will be as close as possible to resetting tolerance, or that it probably takes years to completely reverse the adaptation from your reward pathways, it's not really feasible seeing as how I can't abstain from it for ADHD symptoms.

However, if I'm taking the XR form five days a week for school, take weekends off, and reserve the instant-release form, at higher dosages for the speed rush, say once every two to three weeks, for something constructive, such as a long-ass, busy shift at work or pulling an all-nighter to cram for a difficult test, and just use it for those necessary purposes a few weeks apart, I'm not really chasing the high, there's probably no tolerance build-up, so otherwise it's safe to use it on that basis?

 

[Youngling]

Sounds like you're chasing the euphoria from my perspective.

 

[morphonorconic]

I agree with that, you can't constantly chase the high in conjunction with using it to improve ADHD symptoms at school and work, without becoming dependent, and ending up even more strung-out in the long run. Though I've heard that taking even longer breaks (a few to several months), anecdotally will be as close as possible to resetting tolerance, or that it probably takes years to completely reverse the adaptation from your reward pathways, it's not really feasible seeing as how I can't abstain from it for ADHD symptoms.

However, if I'm taking the XR form five days a week for school, take weekends off, and reserve the instant-release form, at higher dosages for the speed rush, say once every two to three weeks, for something constructive, such as a long-ass, busy shift at work or pulling an all-nighter to cram for a difficult test, and just use it for those necessary purposes a few weeks apart, I'm not really chasing the high, there's probably no tolerance build-up, so otherwise it's safe to use it on that basis?

Yes, it takes about 9-16 months with zero use for stimulant tolerance to reset, and for the mesolimbic pathway to resume normal function. However, even after all that time, using amp would result in extremely rapid tolerance 'response' in which your system would essentially remember, to put it crudely, and adjust. Basically, instead of it being like the first time all over again, complete with: Reasonable doses, a consequence-conscience-free love affair, and a lengthy honeymoon period- it would be like.. another time, complete with: Excessive use, shame, and waking up wondering how such a thing could happen overnight... But seriously, if you were to resume regular or especially habitual use, you'd discover your tolerance will be right back to where you left it in a staggeringly brief amount of time.

I can only speculate as to how well your method will work, but despite the best efforts to counteract the physiological adjustment to a drug, there is no way to circumvent the accumulation of tolerance. But I am certain that with amp, taking supratherapeutic doses is counterproductive, regardless of how infrequent, and will not have any kind of positive impact in the context of establishing a system which seeks to attenuate and prevent tolerance. Though it is however unlikely that occasional indiscriminate use will have a negative impact on your work-week dose's ability to alleviate your ADHD symptoms.

 

[PsychonautRyan]

Sounds like you're chasing the euphoria from my perspective.

Yeah, I guess I still am, but I'm going to be conservative and sparingly use on a recreational basis, as well as being more health-conscious during come-down and break periods, more so than I was before, so I'm balancing it out.

Anyway, if you develop a tolerance to Adderall, even if it develops much more slowly for therapeutic ADHD treatment than recreational (ab)use, does it's improvements on ADHD symptoms fade away as well or not? If so, doesn't that mean that kids and teens on the meds for years are just on stimulant maintenance (sustaining the same dose to alleviate withdrawals)?

What's the optimal dose of l-tyrosine is ideal anyway for dopamine replenishment, but not for any negative symptoms? I can't seem to find a solid dosage range.

Also, morphonorconic, can you cite the 9-16 months figure for stimulant tolerance to reset?

 

[morphonorconic]

^No- that is anecdotal; I meant to say that, and to specify that the figure is a general timeframe, based on my experience recovering from prolonged daily high-dose cocaine abuse, as well as what I have seen in other's recovering from stimulant addiction.

 

[Ksa]

I recently found out (a week ago) that taking nicotine in amphetamine breaks actually increases the amphetamine tolerance by a factor of 2-5 and causes a mountain of problems when the amphetamine break is over and you decide to resume treatment. Symptoms of Central Nervous System Vasculitis where strongly observed within the first 2 weeks of resuming the amphetamine and stopping nicotine. I assume it is because the brain cells irritated by the nicotine are unable to cope with the vasoconstriction, and the expansion/contraction causes damage to the walls which can explain the CNSV symptoms. Attempting to counter the effects with codeine or other painkiller can miraculously result in serotonin syndrome despite all odds of it to happen, which furthens the nerve damage even more. It takes 3-4 weeks of nicotine break for these terrible and dangerous effects to subside.

Most of the damage seems to occur when the cells expand as the amphetamine wears off. Face tingles, brain buzzing, abnormally strong smells, numbness, frontal lobe epilepsy were all observed and were exponentially worstned by an increase in amphetamine dose. Do not ever combine nicotine with Adderall or another amphetamine. Taking amphetamines less than 3 weeks after quitting nicotine is a waste of medication and is a threat to your life in higher doses.