substances, drumming, and meter / rhythm perception (long, boring?)

[domino down]

hi everyone,

so, i'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum for this, but i figured i'd launch a post out here and see how it fares. this is my first post .

[insecurity note: i'm in the middle of writing this, and i think i'm using a lot of terminology that many people aren't familiar with... i'd be more than happy to elaborate.]

[insecurity note 2: i'm on a pretty... err... special amount of oxycodone and codeine right now, so i apologize for any incoherency!]




alrighty. i'm a drummer and a psychology major, and i've been doing some research on how we perceive rhythm and musical meter; as a moderately experienced drummer (nine years or so), i've had lessons with a number of drum teachers, and i've seen a number of ways people learn / teach drumming. my thing is this: i feel like there are more efficient ways of learning and teaching drums, and i think there has been little or no empirical research (drumming specific) in this field whatsoever (granted, it's a very specific field). so, i've been doing some thinking and some reading, in hopes of finding a better way, so to speak.

here are some of the things i've been thinking about. i could go on and on about this, but, for the sake of relevance, i'll be brief:

1) drummers / rhythmically experienced musicians perceive meter differently from non-drummers / rhythmically untrained participants. studies on meter perception are relatively new, so there isn't a whole library of information supporting this (but there is *some*; and i haven't come across any explicitly disconfirming). but, even on a non-scientific level, a drummer might pick out a rhythm as more salient than a melody, or might hear drums "louder" than any other instrument. also, with increased training, one is more able to comprehend complex rhythmic structures (polyrhythmic relationships, implied meter modulations, uncommon subdivisions).

1b) this said, what's actually happening with training? how is the brain / mind adjusting to perceive rhythm and meter more "richly"?

2) another thing i'm exploring are the problems we, as people learning to drum, face. i've pretty much divided them into two types of problems, and they affect us all, regardless of skill level (of course, to appropriate degrees):
- The problem of COGNITION: how we think about a rhythm before playing it
- The problem of COORDINATION: how we physically apply the rhythms
(i'm currently trying to design a study that tests how these problems might interact with each other; my hypothesis is that the cognition and coordination venues may confound each other when someone is trying to learn a rhythmic pattern; hence, by learning to think about and play a rhythm separately, you learn "better".

2b) in line, rhythm perception is as much a head thing as it is a body thing. this is kind of hard to describe, and even harder to do research on. what i'm trying to say is, you can feel / entrain to a rhythm in your head, or you can feel / entrain to it with your entire body. i'm not really talking about dancing here, but more a matter of making rhythm a kinesthetic process. um... what am i talking about... okay, one of the things i've been doing to learn, say, a five-against-two polyrhythm is walk at a fairly relaxed pace and count from one to five in evenly spaced increments, cycling every two strides. so, in my head, it's something like, [right-foot]+"1", "2", "3", [left-foot], "4", "5",[right-foot]+"1",....
(where the right food and "1" fall on the same beat, and the left foot falls directly in between "3" and "4")... my point is, by teaching my body how to feel the relationship, i've learned it better than i would have if i just practiced against a metronome on a drum pad (and, yes, there are confounds here, but i think i've bored enough people!)




and, now... if you're still with me... drugs:

all this said, i've been curious to see what kind of an effect various substances might have on... everything i just mentioned. having never explored hallucinogens outside of salvia (and marijuana, if you classify it as such), i'm not entirely sure what kind of an effect they might have on not only perceiving complex rhythms and meters, but engraining / learning them, being able to use them later. i imagine, given the right frame of mind, there might be something here, but i'm not sure what.

also - there are a number of substancees that impair coordination; but how about improve? or otherwise alter it? more specifically, does anybody know of anything that might "loosen up" limbs, make it so that, in trying to play a rhythm firmly cemented cognitively, muscle memory from other rhythms / techniques does not confound? what am i talking about? non-drummers often have a tough time, initially, with keeping simple 4/4 time, with the right hand playing four times throughout the measure, the right foot playing on the first note, and the left hand playing on the third note. try it. it seems like it would be simple, right? it's deceivingly tricky at first - but, after time, it becomes second nature. are there any substances that can either expedite this learning curve, or get rid of the inflexibility?


and so on, and so forth. i guess, by opening discussion here, i'm hoping to find some drug that just does amazing things in terms of learning how to drum... and i know it's rather unlikely that there's a "perfect drug" out there for these purposes, it couldn't hurt to ask, and it certainly couldn't hurt to think about.


so... any ideas? what are your experiences with drugs and rhythm, drumming, coordination, and so on? is this end worth pursuing? all thoughts / criticism welcome...

thanks for listening, guys.

 

[BilZ0r]

1b) Well more of your cortex will become allocated to to the task at hand. With simple co-ordination tasks this means more of the motorosensory cortex becomes resposnible for the muscles needed to do the action. Motor generation is still something that people argue about quite a lot, and it's a bit physiological for me to know the real answer.

Have you read:
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2003 Nov;999:313-21.
Neurobiology of rhythmic motor entrainment.
Molinari M, Leggio MG, De Martin M, Cerasa A, Thaut M.

I would imagine that classical hallucinogens would increase your belief in being able to pick out complex patterns.. i.e. in a psuedo random pattern, subjects may believe they can hear a pattern.

 

[domino down]

hi there,

that research sounds vaguely familiar, but i'm not sure if i've seen that particular study. i think i'll have to check that out when i get back to school. thanks for pointing that one out!

as far as hallucinogens and beliefs go, i'm sure you're right, and i'm sure belief plays an enormous role in that kind of listening / entraining. that's definitely something worth looking into... the effect of belief on attention. might they also alter how we attend / perceive? for instance, studies indicate that when we hear a polyrhythmic stimulus, we attend to either one part and ignore the other, or we combine the rhythms into one rhythm that we entrain to - is it possible for a hallucinogen to allow us to entrain to two or more rhythms / meters at the same time, to have multiple "clocks" running? i'd imagine not, but i know next to nothing about hallucinogens, so... that's why i'm asking, i guess

i wonder if hallucinogens might be able to expand perceptual thresholds. i'm pretty sure the floor for meter perception is physical, but i've spoken to a number of people who have learned to entrain to meters at incredibly slow tempos (i think the normal ceiling is 5-7 seconds, and some of the people i've spoken to claim to entrain at 9 or so... but i could be wrong about that).

just blabbering here.

anyway, thanks for the response, it's greatly appreciated!

 

[DexterMeth]

" wonder if hallucinogens might be able to expand perceptual thresholds"

This is one thing I am positive about.

 

[Vaya]

I am a drummer of six years now. I own congas, bongos, and a five piece Pearl custom series maple set, burnt amber laquer, and a pleasant mix of Paiste Signature Series and Zildjian A and Z Custom cymbals/hi-hats. DW Silver bass pedal.

I say this not to brag(even though I do love my drums... and alright, I might be braggin' to ya a lil ), but to show that I've had the ample supplies to test drug-induced drum playing in the past. All I can offer are my experiences:

Amphetamines/Cocaine:
More intense, louder and in fact only *slightly* enhanced perception of rhythm, since I always find myself speeding up the beat unintentionally.

Alcohol:
This one is a surprise, but I am actually more coordinated, and more abstract in my perception of rhythm and what I create when drunk (to a certain point that is, depends on how much I've had)

Marijuana and Opiates/Opioids:
Tend to increase my feel for the music, sometimes leads to greater precision and tightness, making for no elasticity in timing.

Dissasociatives:
No experience playing an instrument on these, but from my experiences with the likes of DXM and PCP, I'd imagine I'd play like a five year old

Excercise(I'd consider this a drug; it releases chemicals in your brain as your body works itself):
Much enhanced energy and feel for the music; optimal playing conditions.

I donno what you were looking for in your post, I could barely read the whole thing, but if thats the kind of stuff you were seeking, there ya have it soldier.
And if not, hey.... bathroom reading, right?
Peace.
Long live we Percussionists! b'd-um *tis*

 

[BilZ0r]

" wonder if hallucinogens might be able to expand perceptual thresholds"

This is one thing I am positive about.

This is one thing I am positive that doesn't happen, not to a meaningful extent.

 

[serpent]

i am a drum teacher by profession and have tested many different substances for their rythmic reaction.ketamine is by far the hardest to play on,but it can be learnt,almost like learning to drum again,you need to practise it a few times to train yourself to cope.2cb mixed with ketamine was fantastic for drumming,a freind of mine who is not a drummer managed to play djembes with me on these 2,keeping another friend entranced for hours.it was after this combo that i found i was able to play on just ket alone.mushrooms are fantastic,i always play during the first hour to bring myself up and get people dancing(i play congas and djembe to house music as well as traditional kit).when i used to play out at clubs,i used to take ecstacy and play.when drumming on acid,you can find yourself trapped in the same rythmn sometimes and its hard to break free from it.i think the 2c compounds are probably the best ones to play drums on for beginners,the other night we took 2ci and 2ct2 and once again had a magical drum session with my friend who id previously drummed with on 2cb and ket.i noticed that when playing congas in clubs without ecstacy,my arms and muscles would feel like they were seizing/stiffening up after a few hours,however when on ecstacy my arms would feel supple all night long and had no trouble with finger flicking,one of the first things to go when your muscles sieze up.alcohol causes me to go out of time on a kit and i lose definition.

 

[Mettray]

I compose more complex rhythms on MDMA, and play tough parts more easily. Overall, however, I make more mistakes since my mind wanders. But learning/writing a polyrhythmic/etc beat is made 10 times easier by taking MDMA. For me.


love
mettray

 

[human]

I've been drumming for about 7.5 years now. I've taken a few psychedelics, but the only one that I've ever really played drums on is mushrooms. There is certainly a shift, things get a lot more experimental and a little out there, I'll make rhythms that end up being kind of long and wandering (but still rhythmic all the same). Drumming on mushrooms is amazing though. One of my favorite things to do is play rhythms that I commonly play while under the influence of mushrooms and see if I notice anythnig different. When I start to play a rhythm I'm used to I'll listen closely to see where any accents would be best placed or....just overall focus on the subtleties (spelling?) rather than the rhythm as a whole. But in all this change of playing and the shift in perspective that comes with shrooms I often find myself a little bored or stuck in the same rhythm. Overall it's definately a worthwhile practice, beacuse even if you don't take anything from the experience, you still have the experience itself.

Cannabis makes my playing—no, let me rephrase. Cannabis makes me attempt to play in a more even, exact manner. Whether or not this manner actually comes through depends on...who knows what. The day, how I feel at that time...whatever. A lot of times when I play drums on cannabis I find myself applying melody to my rhythms, if only in my head. The one problem I have with drumming on cannabis is sometimes I'll have problems making things connect nicely. I'll just get a feeling like "eh don't wanna play this anymore" and start playing something else.

Alcohol in moderation is an excellent facilitator of overall fluidity and just getting you to fuckin relax. Not in rhythms, but in overall playing...things come to your fingertips.... I notice that with alcohol I can get impulsive which is good or bad. It can lead to me tripping myself up but as long as I don't get too jumpy it's usually not a problem.

Just my experiences.

 

[ayjay]

Fascinating thread

First up, I would point you towards the work of Reinhard Flatischler: http://www.taketina.com/engl/main_n.htm

This is a method for developing rhythm skills through meditation and focussing on breath, heartbeat etc. Sounds like what you are talking about...

Personally - I've been playing bass for 20 years (and yet still so mediocre!! ). I find that I really need to intellectualise rhythms at first to work them out, but then I need to play them lots to actually "get" them. For instance, I can count any old time signature, but unless there are 3,4,5,6 or 7 pulses to each bar, I'm going to get lost playing eventually 'cos I haven't internalised those beats. But I definitely started with the counting (intellectual) approach.

As far as drug-related effects on playing - it's hard to be sure without recording what you do & listening back later. Obviously, you need to be able to relax in order to play well, but if you take too much "relaxant" then your playing will go to shit. As far as actually learning new ideas - totally straight works best for me - I can concentrate better.

An aside - I appreciate the point about picking up slow tempos being more difficult - but I've experienced the opposite too! I tried for several years (*gasp*) to explain a 16th feel 3-3-3-3-2-2 beat (about 130bpm) to a friend and he just couldn't get it, even though he could play me the same rhythm at 80bpm. Every time we tried it at 130bpm he played 4-2-4-2-2-2.

Oh yeah - Alexander technique helps me loosen up best

 

[panicthedigital]

I'm a wannabe drummer (paly bass and guitar), and I just have to say how cool this thread is. The same concept should be applied to playing music in general. You drummers should write Danny Carey of Tool and ask him, I'm sure he has plenty of experience.

Also, based on reports I have read on erowid, Acorus calamus aka Sweet Flag might be a drug to try. It is cheap as hell to buy online, and is supposed to improve motor function. Just thought you might like to try it.

 

[Jhon]

Interesting, I hadn't seen this thread before now but last night I was out for a walk and began practicing the layering of different rhythms with my walking rate as Domino Down mentioned. Mainly I was attempting to find out how many different rhythms I could have going simultaneously and three seemed to be the limit though I imagine this could be easily increased with practise.

Thinking about the way the brain interprets the timing of rhythms I had the idea that there must be arrays of neurons that fire sympathetically with one another which would give us the basic "tick rate" to compare with any external regular stimulus such as a drum beat or the movement of legs etc.

There is a drug which I imagine could improve the sense of rhythm in a drummer, at least from an external perspective if not from that of the drummer himself, and that would be ketamine. In my experiences (at least with juggling), ketamine seems to allow the body to more easily align itself with a regular pattern such as dancing, juggling and probably drumming as well, because it seems like it's dissociating the part of the brain which deals with these regular rhythms from the conscious part, which normally interferes. (Imagine juggling and watching TV at the same time, for example).

So rather than really improving one's sense of rhythm it appears to me as if ketamine leaves this alone and just prevents normal thoughts from interfering with it.

Edit: I can't spell Rhythm

 

[yaesutom]

I would think a low-medium dose of 'huasca/oral DMT would help with "fluidity", coordination, timing, and multitasking pretty well.

Since this is one of the more rare taken psychedelics i guess you would have to have experience with it to know what i'm talking about.

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