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Bupe Suboxone effect on opiate tolerance and guidance

Chainer

Chainer

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
6,489
Location
United States
Hey all,

I take roughly 60-70mg of oxymorphone daily since early August until now, but I started at 10mg. I dose nasally, so this is quiet high. ANyway, I suffer from chronic pain, and am scripted much more than what I actually take, but I do take the oxymorphone intranasally because it is much more effective. I do not like how high (my tolerance) and dependent I have become on the Opanas, so I picked up some Subs. Note that I *DO* take these for an actual reason - chronic pain, and am managed by a pain clinic, neurologist, and many other doctors and specialists.

With my opiate habit being what it is, I'd like to lower it so 20-30mg will get me nodding again, because it takes a WHOLE lot of powder up my nose to get a nod now. I'm currently on 8mg sub and have minimal withdrawals but do have pretty damn bad cravings, considering my bottle is next to me (and my roommate blows a line every few hours), so I want to take slightly recreational amounts of sub.

My question is this: Will using 8-16mg suboxone for the next 3-5 days effect my opiate tolerance in any way? I know it binds to the same receptors so I imagine it will change, but I want to know if it will go UP or go DOWN.

Thanks
 
In the past when I would take a week off of shooting heroin by using suboxone, when I stopped taking the subs and went back to heroin I found that my tolerance was basically the same. Buperenorphine is a powerful substance, and can really screw up tolerances when taken. I suggest finding the lowest dose possible to keep you un sick. You have a pretty high tolerance to opiates, so I would not count on achieving any kind of recreational effects from suboxone.

It is only a partial agonist. In non tolerance individuals it has the potential to get them 'high', but it isn't even like a traditional opiate high. In tolerant individuals trying to get high on subs is futile at best.

So I wouldn't count on your tolerance going down if you are using 8mg of suboxone a day. That is a rather high dose. With subs, the "less is more" motto really does hold true. This is because at low doses (~1-2mg or less) more of it can be metabolized into norbuprenepherine, which is what would give you a 'high'. If you were able to keep your daily suboxone dose to 1-2mg a day, then you may have a better chance of having your tolerance to go down. And even so, 3-5 days is not a long time at all. Your tolerance has a better chance of getting lowered if you were to stay on suboxone for a while, and taper your dose down to sub mg doses. Tolerance is a bitch
 
I'd be surprised if you needed more than 4mg, probably only 2. You don't really get stronger mu agonism past these doses - just a longer blockade effect.

Either way, a week of total abstinence won't greatly affect your opioid tolerance for more than a day or 2 so substituting sub in that time will provide even LESS of a reduction.
 
ive found that taking one mg of sub, then a little bit of my usual opiate on top is the best way.

ill take the sub which will take away most of the wd, ill just be a little sweaty and not sleep well, so i wait it out usually til before bed then take a little heroin. for example normally in a day id do anywhere from .3 to .6, but with the sub id do .1 at most and be fine for about 24 more hours.

anyways after a few days like this ill stop taking sub and the next day my tolerance will be much lower, but it doesnt last for long im usually right back where i was within a couple days which is the eternal problem with opiates.
 
Thanks for the input thus far, great info in your post too, Broken.

Cane, I don't know why, but I did start by breaking an N8 sub into 2mg pieces (this was a bit hard but I have a good pill splitter). I tried staying low but it really didn't help much, cramps were reduced and the feeling of death faded, but 4-5mg is when my W/Ds really started to go away. I ended up taking more because of several triggers (watching my roomie blow lines), which turned off my cravings and got me a little "high".

I should have noted I am not trying to achieve an amazing high or even catch a nod off this stuff - I just wanted to feel "nice" - which 8mg did just fine (for ~4 hours).

I guess I will slow down the sub dosage if I can control myself. I was surprised I needed more than 2mg as well, as when I used subs in the past I only needed 1mg... I had a much smaller habit back then, though. Remember, I'm blowing 60-80mg oxyMORPHONE, not oxycodone, so it's a large tolerance.

I've heard people from either side say a 5 day sub break can really lower tolerance for a day or two - or that it will do very little.

To be clear: I am not expecting a long-term tolerance change, just a day or two after the 5 day break where I can catch a nice nod off a smaller dosage of oxymorphone (35mg instead of 60-80mg for a day or two).
 
chainer3k said:
Hey all,

I take roughly 60-70mg of oxymorphone daily since early August until now, but I started at 10mg. I dose nasally, so this is quiet high. ANyway, I suffer from chronic pain, and am scripted much more than what I actually take, but I do take the oxymorphone intranasally because it is much more effective. I do not like how high (my tolerance) and dependent I have become on the Opanas, so I picked up some Subs. Note that I *DO* take these for an actual reason - chronic pain, and am managed by a pain clinic, neurologist, and many other doctors and specialists.

With my opiate habit being what it is, I'd like to lower it so 20-30mg will get me nodding again, because it takes a WHOLE lot of powder up my nose to get a nod now. I'm currently on 8mg sub and have minimal withdrawals but do have pretty damn bad cravings, considering my bottle is next to me (and my roommate blows a line every few hours), so I want to take slightly recreational amounts of sub.

My question is this: Will using 8-16mg suboxone for the next 3-5 days effect my opiate tolerance in any way? I know it binds to the same receptors so I imagine it will change, but I want to know if it will go UP or go DOWN.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Personally I think anyone who switches to subs, increases their tolerance ten fold while on them. If you wait 3 days after a single dose or couple, your regular opiate tolerance would definitely be down. Dope is a way different high than suboxone.
 
I'm not knocking your tolerance man, but 80mg opana is roughly equal to 160mg of the old OC. When I got on subs I could easily IV 300-400mg of oxy in a day, and after 4-5 days of taking 8mg a day I cut down to 2mg twice a day. And then I tried out 1mg 3 times a day and I was fine. Now I take ~0.5mg 3 times a day and it holds me, plus a nice little euphoria for 10-20 minutes (I IV it). I think your cravings are more mental than anything, and those are the hardest to kick. I know bupe affects everyone differently, but I know personally it doesn't take away my desire to shoot dope.

Try taking small amounts 2-3 times a day, and if you feel like you need more, do more. Try and take as little as possible as opposed to taking a lot once a day
 
God dammit I just typed up a fucking novel, and when I pressed reply I got the good ole' CANNOT LOAD PAGE and my text got made go bye-bye.. Wahh

Anyways, if you just want to be able to get proper fucked on a lower dose for a couple of days, then do the following. I would suggest for 4 or 5 days to take as little sub as possible, just so you can function. A little sickness will make it that much better. You could try and reduce you dose a bit and do like a little 5 day taper, like they do in detox facilities. Then after that don't take anything for like 36 hours (or longer if you can stand it). After that, dosing your Opana should get you nicely high on a lower dose. Now remember your tolerance will shoot back up after just a day or two.
 
Thanks a lot for following up on this so quickly guys. Broken, I appreciate your input and will be following your advice after tomorrow. An issue is that I do have a lot of chronic pain, so I will guess I will have to find some other option to medicate that... perhaps large dosages of valium for my jaw and gabapentin for neuropain.

comatoserct, I wasn't trying to say I have the largest habit in the world and I in no way meant to imply that, but on the flip side, to me, 160mg of the old OC formulation is a decent sized habit. High enough that most kids I know that hit that mark without their own script or insane bank roll start to switch to H. Anyway, I know 4mg really got all my W/Ds out, physical that is, of course the rest is mental. The added 6mg really took away that mental craving, too.

In either case, I will be trying 3mg tomorrow and see if I can function enough to go to class and take a test, otherwise I may take a bit more. Thank you again everyone.
 
Cool, man. Good luck. If you find that later in the day you really aren't feeling good at all, it is fine to take another 1mg or so just for a booster. There is really no right or wrong answer, everyone is different. There is no shame in taking a little extra. I have been on methadone for like 15 months or something like that, 75mg per day. Today I finally started my taper, down to 70mg. Gonna drop another five next week. Opiate addiction is a bitch, haha. It's a long hard road but you just gotta stick with it, and get through it.

You'll be fine, and you'll most definitely enjoy that first line of Opana after your little 'vacation'
 
chainer3k said:
Thanks for the input thus far, great info in your post too, Broken.

Cane, I don't know why, but I did start by breaking an N8 sub into 2mg pieces (this was a bit hard but I have a good pill splitter). I tried staying low but it really didn't help much, cramps were reduced and the feeling of death faded, but 4-5mg is when my W/Ds really started to go away. I ended up taking more because of several triggers (watching my roomie blow lines), which turned off my cravings and got me a little "high".

I should have noted I am not trying to achieve an amazing high or even catch a nod off this stuff - I just wanted to feel "nice" - which 8mg did just fine (for ~4 hours).

I guess I will slow down the sub dosage if I can control myself. I was surprised I needed more than 2mg as well, as when I used subs in the past I only needed 1mg... I had a much smaller habit back then, though. Remember, I'm blowing 60-80mg oxyMORPHONE, not oxycodone, so it's a large tolerance.

I've heard people from either side say a 5 day sub break can really lower tolerance for a day or two - or that it will do very little.

To be clear: I am not expecting a long-term tolerance change, just a day or two after the 5 day break where I can catch a nice nod off a smaller dosage of oxymorphone (35mg instead of 60-80mg for a day or two).
Click to expand...

I have talked to someone with extensive opiate experience, and they have always pointed out to me that everyone they know who have tried many opiates have all been able to agree upon that Opana is one of the hardest opiates to transition off of.

I am not surprised you are at 8mg of Suboxone, because Opana tends to be more potent than heroin. This is likely why you are at 8mg per day, even though you started at 2mg intervals.
 
Sorry, kinda off topic.

That is true, Opana can seem more potent than heroin. I am sure the withdrawals are fucking horrible, and it is difficult to transition off of. But as far as being the hardest, I am not sure about that. I think methadone is the hardest, at high doses, mainly because the half life is so long and you have to go stop taking it and wait for 5 or more days before starting sub. I suppose Opana may be more acutely intense, it is just that the duration of methadone w/d is fucking brutal and horrible.
 
i keep hearing this at 1-2mg your body metabolizes Norbuprenorphine higher euphoria for a bit on these boards.. etc etc...

so bupe isnt a full agonist but its active metabolite is?

where is the actually data or research on this? and at those doses?


but i dont understand ........ about the metabolite
 
At the ORL1 receptor, norBUP was a full agonist with low potency, while BUP was a potent partial agonist. In the writhing test, BUP and norBUP both suppressed writhing in an efficacious and dose-dependent manner, giving A(50) values of 0.067 and 0.21 mg/kg, s.c., respectively. These results highlight the similarities and differences between BUP and norBUP, each of which may influence the unique pharmacological profile of BUP.
http://www.opioids.com/norbuprenorphine/index.html
 
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