Sub Taper Schedule: Anyone approve or disappove?

[john3434]

Been on massive amounts of opiates of all kinds for about a year and a half. Headed to the doctor tomorrow to lay it all on the table and get some help. I sick of living this way.

Anyway, she's my family practitioner and knows my situation and can write Subs. I've tried in the past doing this with her help but I kept the rest of my family in the dark about what I was doing and we all know how well that works out. This doctor is a good listener and knows that I know my pills. She'll basically let me lay out what I want to do and as long as she has no serious reservations about it, she will help me. Taking the family with me too so it's all out on the table.

So, the schedule I have planned to ask for is a short term taper. I don't want to be one of those that gets stuck on that shit for months and goes through hell to get off of them (no offense to those in that situation, I feel for you...I really do).

So here's the schedule (and I've tried this before and it worked just fine except for the part about not involving the family). :

**Will be about 60 hours into w/d when I start**
Day 1: 8mg
Day 2: 8mg
Day 3: 8mg
Day 4: 6mg
Day 5: 6mg
Day 6: 6mg
Day 7: 4mg
Day 8: 4mg
Day 9: 4mg
Day 10: 2mg
Day 11: 2mg
Day 12: 2mg
Day 13: 1mg
Day 14: 1mg
Day 15: 1mg

Any thoughts, concerns, ideas. Would really appreciate any help. Thanks!

 

[Jabberwocky]

This sounds great! You got a good head on your shoulders. From what others have told me, you might want to cut it down in similar increments to <1mg, but given the short period of time you'll be on it this might not really be necessary.

Sorry, don't have much experience (being successful at least) with sub (or any alternative opiate supplemented) detoxes (have lots of experience being unsuccessful with it though! ).

Best of luck though!

That's so fucking awesome you'll be bringing your family to the Dr's and, as you said, laying it on the table. That sounds like the best thing you could do (it was the best thing I could do; began the beginning of the end of my heroin use, even though I didn't go the sub/meth/medical detox route).

 

[john3434]

This sounds great! You got a good head on your shoulders. From what others have told me, you might want to cut it down in similar increments to <1mg, but given the short period of time you'll be on it this might not really be necessary.

Sorry, don't have much experience (being successful at least) with sub (or any alternative opiate supplemented) detoxes (have lots of experience being unsuccessful with it though! ).

Best of luck though!

That's so fucking awesome you'll be bringing your family to the Dr's and, as you said, laying it on the table. That sounds like the best thing you could do (it was the best thing I could do; began the beginning of the end of my heroin use, even though I didn't go the sub/meth/medical detox route).

Thanks for the support. It's much needed.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You deserve it buddy! This is some deep shit you're dealing with, and it sure seems like you've realized it. Take it easy, but keep up the good fight. There no reason you can't get this monkey off your back if you really try. And by being honest with your folks and Dr, it sounds like really try is exactly what you plan on doing. That takes guts. Go kick some ass!

 

[john3434]

You deserve it buddy! This is some deep shit you're dealing with, and it sure seems like you've realized it. Take it easy, but keep up the good fight. There no reason you can't get this monkey off your back if you really try. And by being honest with your folks and Dr, it sounds like really try is exactly what you plan on doing. That takes guts. Go kick some ass!

Well, the fam at this point is the wife. Hopefully she won't kick my ass mid doctor's apt. At least she knows what we're going in for.

 

[john3434]

Well, the fam at this point is the wife. Hopefully she won't kick my ass mid doctor's apt. At least she knows what we're going in for.

I'll update after appointment but if anyone has more comments or help bring em on.

 

[Bojangles69]

I don't like the taper tbo. If you're on 8mg sub dropping to 6mg is just a waste of time imo. And you can use that time for when you need it most when you get lower.

All I know about opiates is any opiate I've ever tapered off of I've always been able to start the taper by cutting the dose by exactly 50%. And its never rough at all wds are extremely minimal at that point.
I'd go straight from 8mg to 4mg. But when you get down to 4mg hang there for 5-6 days. You might think its similar but its not because you're staying at a lower dose for longer as opposed to staying at 6mg for a few days which you don't really need.

And I always find you want to slow the taper down towards the end. It shouldn't be linear at all, it should start steep, then gradually get more and more shallow like a plane landing on a runway.

Also, I've tried jumping off sub at 1mg and the wds were horrible. If you plan on jumping off at 1mg you're basically going cold turkey imo. Would the wds be less than if you jump off at 4mg? Of course. But 1mg of sub is a lot stronger than most people understand. Lets not forget its about 40times the strength of morphine so thats like jumping off 40mg of morphine hypothetically speaking.

What I would do would be like this:
Day 1 - 8mg
Day 2 - 4mg
Day 3 - 4mg
Day 4 - 4mg
Day 5 - 4mg
Day 6 - 4mg
Day 7 - 3mg
Day 8 - 3mg
Day 9 - 3mg
Day 10 - 2mg
Day 11 - 2mg
Day 12 - 2mg
Day 13 - 2mg
Day 14 - 1mg
Day 15 - 1mg
Day 16 - 1mg
Day 17 - 1mg
Day 18 - 1mg
Day 19 - .75mg
Day 20 - .75mg
Day 21 - .75mg
Day 22 - .5mg
Day 23 - .5mg
Day 24 - .5mg
Day 25 - .4mg
Day 26 - .4mg
Day 27 - .4mg
Day 28 - .3mg
Day 29 - .3mg
Day 30 - .3mg

Then drop to .25mg and STAY there for 14 days.
This is one of the most important things with any opiate. If you just get down to .25mg and stop, you're still going to be withdrawing from higher doses only a week ago. It takes your body in reality
1-2 weeks to adjust to every drop you make. So if you drop to .25mg on day 31, you're body is still feeling the wds from .5mg - .75mg.
Thats why if you stay at .25mg for 2 weeks, you'll finish wding from those higher doses, and when you jump off you will only be wding from the .25mg dose.

At .25mg there are virtually no wds at all for most people. I've spoken to a lot of people over in OD who got down to .25, stayed there 1-2 days, then jumped off and couldn't deal with the wds.
Then I've spoken to a few other people who got low and stayed low for a couple weeks, and when they stopped they had no wds at all. Although tapering rarely gets rid of PAWs. When I tapered off sub I stayed at .25mg for 2 weeks. I stopped and felt great. Then by week 3 I got slammed with a nasty case of paws and relapsed after day 23.

But in terms of exhausting the physical wds start the taper fast, then slow it down as much as you can towards the end. Also, think about this. When doctors taper you off of ssris (which have much much less severe wds than opiates) the standard taper time is 4 weeks. And even at that point most people still feel somewhat uncomfortable coming off. Although when I came off Lex at 4 weeks I felt good for the most part.
Opiates require wayyyyy longer for the body to adjust to not having anymore. And by way longer I mean 2-3 months of tapering before the body really stablizes. Although you can taper in 15 days, thats still a really fast taper and its begging for wds. Your wds will likely be about half of what they would have been if you just stopped at day 1, but for decent habits like 8mg, that still = horrible fucking wds.

I don't know what your goal is. If its to taper fast just to lessen wds a bit then your plan is solid.
If its to try avoiding like 90% of wds then its not happening in that time frame. That doesn't even consider the ridiculously long half life of suboxone which is just going to take that much longer for your body to adjust to every lowered dose.

You said you did "this" before. I'm not sure if you mean the taper but I don't know anyone who's stopped at 1mg of sub and felt anything but horrible. If you're different and your body can handle wds and you know that, then by all means stick to your plan. Just don't forget that because one taper worked last time doesn't means its going to work this time. I hope it goes good, I hope you feel alright, but something tells me when you get half way through the taper (or earlier) you're going to realize its not going how you planned.

So I'll be checking in just to be proved wrong. =]
G/luck!!

 

[Bojangles69]

Ah fuck just forget everything I wrote. I'll leave it up there though just for reference for people whos habit was SUBOXONE.

I missed the fact that you are switching to suboxone just for the taper. So if your body is addicted to shorter acting opiates, then yes you can get away with a slightly faster taper.
I still think the tapers fast and you're going to be uncomfortable, but you'll be able to guage as you progress just my listening to your body.

For anyone trying to get off a sub habit, the taper I wrote would be ideal. Other people will actually taper off sub for 3-6 months long and if you have the will power I say the longer the better with any opiate.

 

[john3434]

I don't like the taper tbo. If you're on 8mg sub dropping to 6mg is just a waste of time imo. And you can use that time for when you need it most when you get lower.

All I know about opiates is any opiate I've ever tapered off of I've always been able to start the taper by cutting the dose by exactly 50%. And its never rough at all wds are extremely minimal at that point.
I'd go straight from 8mg to 4mg. But when you get down to 4mg hang there for 5-6 days. You might think its similar but its not because you're staying at a lower dose for longer as opposed to staying at 6mg for a few days which you don't really need.

And I always find you want to slow the taper down towards the end. It shouldn't be linear at all, it should start steep, then gradually get more and more shallow like a plane landing on a runway.

Also, I've tried jumping off sub at 1mg and the wds were horrible. If you plan on jumping off at 1mg you're basically going cold turkey imo. Would the wds be less than if you jump off at 4mg? Of course. But 1mg of sub is a lot stronger than most people understand. Lets not forget its about 40times the strength of morphine so thats like jumping off 40mg of morphine hypothetically speaking.

What I would do would be like this:
Day 1 - 8mg
Day 2 - 4mg
Day 3 - 4mg
Day 4 - 4mg
Day 5 - 4mg
Day 6 - 4mg
Day 7 - 3mg
Day 8 - 3mg
Day 9 - 3mg
Day 10 - 2mg
Day 11 - 2mg
Day 12 - 2mg
Day 13 - 2mg
Day 14 - 1mg
Day 15 - 1mg
Day 16 - 1mg
Day 17 - 1mg
Day 18 - 1mg
Day 19 - .75mg
Day 20 - .75mg
Day 21 - .75mg
Day 22 - .5mg
Day 23 - .5mg
Day 24 - .5mg
Day 25 - .4mg
Day 26 - .4mg
Day 27 - .4mg
Day 28 - .3mg
Day 29 - .3mg
Day 30 - .3mg

Then drop to .25mg and STAY there for 14 days.
This is one of the most important things with any opiate. If you just get down to .25mg and stop, you're still going to be withdrawing from higher doses only a week ago. It takes your body in reality
1-2 weeks to adjust to every drop you make. So if you drop to .25mg on day 31, you're body is still feeling the wds from .5mg - .75mg.
Thats why if you stay at .25mg for 2 weeks, you'll finish wding from those higher doses, and when you jump off you will only be wding from the .25mg dose.

At .25mg there are virtually no wds at all for most people. I've spoken to a lot of people over in OD who got down to .25, stayed there 1-2 days, then jumped off and couldn't deal with the wds.
Then I've spoken to a few other people who got low and stayed low for a couple weeks, and when they stopped they had no wds at all. Although tapering rarely gets rid of PAWs. When I tapered off sub I stayed at .25mg for 2 weeks. I stopped and felt great. Then by week 3 I got slammed with a nasty case of paws and relapsed after day 23.

But in terms of exhausting the physical wds start the taper fast, then slow it down as much as you can towards the end. Also, think about this. When doctors taper you off of ssris (which have much much less severe wds than opiates) the standard taper time is 4 weeks. And even at that point most people still feel somewhat uncomfortable coming off. Although when I came off Lex at 4 weeks I felt good for the most part.
Opiates require wayyyyy longer for the body to adjust to not having anymore. And by way longer I mean 2-3 months of tapering before the body really stablizes. Although you can taper in 15 days, thats still a really fast taper and its begging for wds. Your wds will likely be about half of what they would have been if you just stopped at day 1, but for decent habits like 8mg, that still = horrible fucking wds.

I don't know what your goal is. If its to taper fast just to lessen wds a bit then your plan is solid.
If its to try avoiding like 90% of wds then its not happening in that time frame. That doesn't even consider the ridiculously long half life of suboxone which is just going to take that much longer for your body to adjust to every lowered dose.

You said you did "this" before. I'm not sure if you mean the taper but I don't know anyone who's stopped at 1mg of sub and felt anything but horrible. If you're different and your body can handle wds and you know that, then by all means stick to your plan. Just don't forget that because one taper worked last time doesn't means its going to work this time. I hope it goes good, I hope you feel alright, but something tells me when you get half way through the taper (or earlier) you're going to realize its not going how you planned.

So I'll be checking in just to be proved wrong. =]
G/luck!!

Thanks for that advice and I can definitely work with it. Only issue is this doc won't go over the 2 week line. I can take it on myself with what she gives me but I'm adimate about doing that. Going against doc's orders is when I start getting myself into trouble.

 

[Bojangles69]

Thats crazy that a doctor would limit the time you have to get off a drug that your body is physically dependent on. I would tell my doctor shes crazy and my bodies not going to adjust any quicker just because her magic # is 2 weeks. But I'm suspecting to some degree that she wants you to be in pain as when I went to detox they would tell me "the more you hurt now, the less likely you will forget it".

So obviously do what she says. What I would do though (IF shes just prescribing the sub and expecting you to take it on your own time) is save the sub and plug it so it lasts 4 times as long. If she only wants to prescribe you 2 weeks worth by mouth to limit you, you can get about 6-8 weeks with the same amount of sub by plugging. It would allow you to delay the taper and do it under your own discretion.
However, like you said thats going against the doctors orders. I personally wouldn't give 2 shits as I'd just find another/better doctor if it was that big a deal, but you know whats best in your situation so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Be sure to keep us updated too man I love seeing when people finish their tapers and wind up making it. Carl was the last one I saw do it on here and before that theres been a lot. So tapering IS absolutely effective despite the popular opinion of people who like to believe all addicts are uncontrollable compulsive lunatics who can't control a single thing they do. Thats absolutely not true. Some addicts actually get off on having no discipline or self control just as much as the high, it helps validate their entire addiction. Other addicts like me practice self control and resent compulsiveness. So its really up to the addicts individual personality regarding whether they succeed, not just the fact that they are an addict.

Good luck!

 

[john3434]

Thats crazy that a doctor would limit the time you have to get off a drug that your body is physically dependent on. I would tell my doctor shes crazy and my bodies not going to adjust any quicker just because her magic # is 2 weeks. But I'm suspecting to some degree that she wants you to be in pain as when I went to detox they would tell me "the more you hurt now, the less likely you will forget it".

So obviously do what she says. What I would do though (IF shes just prescribing the sub and expecting you to take it on your own time) is save the sub and plug it so it lasts 4 times as long. If she only wants to prescribe you 2 weeks worth by mouth to limit you, you can get about 6-8 weeks with the same amount of sub by plugging. It would allow you to delay the taper and do it under your own discretion.
However, like you said thats going against the doctors orders. I personally wouldn't give 2 shits as I'd just find another/better doctor if it was that big a deal, but you know whats best in your situation so I'm just throwing out random thoughts here.

Be sure to keep us updated too man I love seeing when people finish their tapers and wind up making it. Carl was the last one I saw do it on here and before that theres been a lot. So tapering IS absolutely effective despite the popular opinion of people who like to believe all addicts are uncontrollable compulsive lunatics who can't control a single thing they do. Thats absolutely not true. Some addicts actually get off on having no discipline or self control just as much as the high, it helps validate their entire addiction. Other addicts like me practice self control and resent compulsiveness. So its really up to the addicts individual personality regarding whether they succeed, not just the fact that they are an addict.

Good luck!

Thanks man. I'll keep updated. Part of the reason she'll only do a few weeks is she's not on of those typical Sub doctors that charge you out the ass, wont charge insurance, and want to see you 3 days in a row in the beginning and then at least once a week after, charging you $100 and up per visit. Don't know if it's that way it is elsewhere, but here that's usually how it goes. It's almost criminal.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Wise words bo

 

[john3434]

UPDATE:

Successfully on day 2 of taper. After reading over everyone's advice on this thread I typed out a specific taper schedule and took it to my doctor with fingers crossed that she would agree to it and go over the two week limit. Amazingly enough, she said OK. She was very reluctant though. There's no way she would have pushed to 3 weeks. She also took mercy on me and only charged $40 for the appointment and will not be charging me for any of the follow ups.

So here's my official taper:

Day 1: 8mg
Day 2: 6mg
Day 3: 6mg
Day 4: 6mg
Day 5: 4mg
Day 6: 4mg
Day 7: 4mg
Day 8: 2mg
Day 9: 2mg
Day 10: 2mg
Day 11: 1mg
Day 12: 1mg
Day 13: 1mg
Day 14: .5mg
Day 15: .5mg
Day 16: .5mg
Day 17: .25mg
Day 18: .25mg
Day 19: .25mg

So far, so good. One thing strange I've noticed though that I haven't seen mentioned before about the Subs (maybe I just missed it).....after a decent size meal, like the one I just ate, I get hit with a massive nod fit. Doesn't happen any other time, but every time I eat it slams me. No euphoria, just a nod comparable to the first time I IV'd dilaudid. Anyone else had this experience?

Anyway, I go back to doc Tuesday for next prescription. Will be starting the 4mg dose that day and switching to Subutex instead of the Suboxone (Subs cause me to have pitting edema after 4-5 days because of the naloxone).

 

[john3434]

Anyone got an answer on the nodding after a large meal question?

 

[Jabberwocky]

What kind of stuff are you eating or has it been more or less random (high fat, carb, whatever)?

Are you using the subs are prescribed (sublingually)?

oh, and kick ass avatar john!

 

[john3434]

What kind of stuff are you eating or has it been more or less random (high fat, carb, whatever)?

Are you using the subs are prescribed (sublingually)?

oh, and kick ass avatar john!

Thanks on the avatar compliment. One of my favorites for the last 12 or so years.

As for the meals, they've been all over the map. Pizza, salads, bagel, a smoothie.

As for how I'm taking it, I am taking it as prescribed (SL).

 

[Jabberwocky]

dito, love uncle tupelo too...

Anyways, I am not really sure what to say. Personally, when I started taking suboxone (the first time; sl; moderate tolerance to H; not prescribed), it made me nod like nothing else. I know others who have experienced this. However, as time wore on and I used it more and more, abusing it, intranasal, taking much more than origenally (from 2mg to more like 4-8mg at a time), the drug took on a speedier approach.

So, my intuition tells me it's not so much the food, but just your body getting used to it? (???) Maybe try taking it before a meal or just not in close proximity to eating? (???) Sorry if you already said you tried this, sort of rushing and tiiiiiiiiiiiired...

I guess I can imply from what you wrote ^^^^ that you have taken subs from more than 4-5 days? Just wanted to clarify.

Sorry, but I also forget, do you have much previous experience with suboxone?

Oh, and the first 7-14 (one to two weeks) I used subs I got real lethargic, noddy, but, as you mentioned you are experiencing, with relatively little euphoria compared to even week full agonist opiates (i.e. codeine). So, again, I would just think it's just your body getting used to it.

Lastly, whats up with the naloxone?!?!!? What is this pitting edema you speak of?

Once again, best of luck!!!

 

[muvolution]

The only thing I would say is I've always found it easier in the long run to drop faster at first, as fast as you can comfortably, if your goal is to ultimately get off.

 

[john3434]

dito, love uncle tupelo too...

Anyways, I am not really sure what to say. Personally, when I started taking suboxone (the first time; sl; moderate tolerance to H; not prescribed), it made me nod like nothing else. I know others who have experienced this. However, as time wore on and I used it more and more, abusing it, intranasal, taking much more than origenally (from 2mg to more like 4-8mg at a time), the drug took on a speedier approach.

So, my intuition tells me it's not so much the food, but just your body getting used to it? (???) Maybe try taking it before a meal or just not in close proximity to eating? (???) Sorry if you already said you tried this, sort of rushing and tiiiiiiiiiiiired...

I guess I can imply from what you wrote ^^^^ that you have taken subs from more than 4-5 days? Just wanted to clarify.

Sorry, but I also forget, do you have much previous experience with suboxone?

Oh, and the first 7-14 (one to two weeks) I used subs I got real lethargic, noddy, but, as you mentioned you are experiencing, with relatively little euphoria compared to even week full agonist opiates (i.e. codeine). So, again, I would just think it's just your body getting used to it.

Lastly, whats up with the naloxone?!?!!? What is this pitting edema you speak of?

Once again, best of luck!!!

Pitting edema in layman's terms is when your ankles and feet swell with fluid. Naloxone is known to cause this in some people and the last two times I took Subs it happened after 3 or 4 days. I'm on day 4 right now and strangely enough no signs of the edema so I don't know what's up with that.