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Should suicide be considered an acceptable choice for any reason?

ForEverAfter said:
I don't see how anybody could possibly establish it as being true.
Are you intentionally asking an unanswerable question to make your opposition look foolish?
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Somehow I missed this post the first time around.

I feel that your attempt to characterize my requesting the OP to defend his views as some kind of trick is fairly detrimental to the prospect of generating worthwhile discussion.

I did not ask an unanswerable question, I asked the OP to provide an argument to give other people good reason(s) to think moral relativism was true. This is a philosophy forum. Philosophy is not making a series of unfounded claims, it is appealing to a logical argument in order to establish your claims, and that is all I asked the OP to do.
 
psychedelicsoul said:
Now... I'm not so much asking what you personally think of suicide, but how you percieve the moral status of one who does it? I guess a few questions can be asked that shows that it's pretty complex.
1. If someone commits suicide, and nobody is around to morn their loss, then is it still a tragedy? If so... Then you must believe his life has inherent value. If not, then his live has no value as there are no others to give his life value
2. Is suicide wrong because of how it harms loved ones? If so, then that means that the only reason the person has value and should continue on living is for the sake of those around them. What if the majority of people hated you, and would delight in your death? Would that make your suicide a just act of kindness?
3. If a person chooses to commit suicide, and you stop them, are you not infringing on their individuality? Are you not simply forcing your will onto them?
4. Shouldn't religious suicide be considered a just and proper form of free exercise. As long as the participants are adults?
5. Let's say a child is very unsociable, and by his own fault, doesn't get along with peers. He kills himself as a result. Are the kids responsible for shunning him? Should children be made to get along with one another, simply to avoid the possibility of suicide? If nobody likes a kid and doesn't wanna be their friend, is it really their fault?
6. Is it wrong to assist in suicide for petty reasons, or make money off it? If I ran a Futurama-style suicide booth, would that make me a bad person?
7. At what point is suicide unreasonable. Let's say a child is beat up and bullied all his life and grows up to move pastit. But lets say another child faces only a fraction of what the other kid did, but killed himself... Isn't that other kid weak?
If me calling you names will make you kill yourself, how are you not weak? Kids bully other kids by nature. Primates display bullying too... For all of you who think bullying is something abnormal that comes as a result of societal programming and environment, you're wrong. Bullying is natural behavior in humans or chimpanzee's.

Basically the most common reason people give to say suicide is wrong is that it hurts the ones closest to the victim.. but I don't know. Why should someone have to live for other peoples sake?
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I'm a big fan of Schopenhauer's writing on suicide. Here it is if you have an interest.

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/pessimism/chapter3.html

IMO we are all free within ourselves. To judge another's motives without getting into their skin so to speak is the height of folly and arrogance . So for me suicide is the absolute right of every individual and if there be such a thing as free will then suicide would be the ultimate expression of it. Saying to the universe, "you can't fire me, I quit".

I have every intention on leaving the world in this way. Personally I'll feel a little disappointed in myself otherwise.
 
For me personally, I have tried to talk four different people out of suicide. I failed twice, and they're dead now. I they wanted to die truly, they were going to make sure it happened. I have no right to keep a person from getting what they want, unless I know that there is a better way. I failed twice, they died and hurt their families, they were too blinded by impulse and failng antidepressants to understand who they were hurting.

But death is nature, and nature gets what it wants one way ir another. Mght even trigger some to speed up the process.

There may be nothing immoral about suicide when no one os affected, but perhaps the immorality is when a person who wants to die is kept alive.

I really believe that if a person wants to die, they will die. If a person fails to go through with suicide, they don't want to die. When they 100% want it, they get it. Sadly.

It hurts me to think about it, as it gets a bit personal. I think it is safe to say a few of us here have been suicidal, and maybe still are. Myself included. But I do not feel that I have any rigth to hurt anyone else, like my family. It is immoral to hurt others and not care, but it is also immoral to keep another person from doing what they want to do to bring them salvation.

Suicide/Prevention is a double edged sword, you've just gotta figure out which side is sharper.

And btw hi willow!
 
In most cases, the person who wants to commit suicide does so because their life is a constant suffering that they feel they cannot take any longer, or do not see any possible change in the future. Sure, their death would most likely hurt their close ones, but what about the opposite? Basically the "close ones" are forcing the person to live a life of suffering just so they can feel better themselves by having the person around. Tell me that isn't selfish.

If the suicide is planned and there's a high degree of certainty that it's the right choice for the person, then it's an acceptable choice and governments should provide euthanasia service.
 
Cosmic Trigger said:
IMO we are all free within ourselves. To judge another's motives without getting into their skin so to speak is the height of folly and arrogance . So for me suicide is the absolute right of every individual and if there be such a thing as free will then suicide would be the ultimate expression of it. Saying to the universe, "you can't fire me, I quit".

I have every intention on leaving the world in this way. Personally I'll feel a little disappointed in myself otherwise.
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When I was 15 I got in trouble. Trouble is relative, it was something that to most people here would seem silly, but I had strict parents and was on the sensitive side of the spectrum, so it seemed like my world was falling apart. I decided then and there that suicide was the only way out. I wrote a note, took a large dose of lorazepam (not even close to large enough, but I didn't know that, and didn't do my diligence to find out). Honestly it was a bit amateur hour when it came to the whole thing. I woke up the next day alive and concluded "never again." I did manage to slice up my arm real good after the failed attempt and didn't conceal that, so people would ask me what happened and I'd promptly lie. Leaving a doubt was all I could get away with then to share with others my pain.

Point is that period in my life has passed. I've since fucked up much worse than I did that day and it is really hard for me to understand how I would have been so willing to give up so easily back then. There was noting objective about my decision to end my life. The OP is a misanthrope BTW, so even though his arguements are sometimes well thought out, strip him of his arguements and I suspect there is a whole lot of hate towards everyone and everything in life. Sorry if that's ad hominem, but it's relevant toward his valuing of life. Nothing would make him happier than for some poor depressed bloke to take their own life (of their own free will that is) and he'd likely cheer you on.

You sound like you've already made up your mind Cosmic Trigger and honestly, speaking of folly and arrogance, that sounds like you got some of that going on yourself. Peoples minds change, they always have, and you are no exception. I hope you'll entertain the possibility that your mind may change, and when it does, I hope you won't have dug yourself in so deep as to conclude your mind changed incorrectly. Being suicidal is a part of the human condition, and it saddens me. The decision to go through with it is a freedom I value as well, so I don't presume to know if yours is actually one of the percentage of suicides that have merit on humanitarian grounds. That said, presuming you know now and forever what is right for you is cruel. I'd be suicidal too if suicide was the only just outcome I could envision for my life. You've rigged it so if you don't go through with suicide it'll be only because you are a failure. I hope you can stop torturing yourself that way. It's not worth romanticizing this stuff. Take care
 
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levelsBeyond said:
When I was 15 I got in trouble. Trouble is relative, it was something that to most people here would seem silly, but I had strict parents and was on the sensitive side of the spectrum, so it seemed like my world was falling apart. I decided then and there that suicide was the only way out. I wrote a note, took a large dose of lorazepam (not even close to large enough, but I didn't know that, and didn't do my diligence to find out). Honestly it was a bit amateur hour when it came to the whole thing. I woke up the next day alive and concluded "never again." I did manage to slice up my arm real good after the failed attempt and didn't conceal that, so people would ask me what happened and I'd promptly lie. Leaving a doubt was all I could get away with then to share with others my pain.

Point is that period in my life has passed. I've since fucked up much worse than I did that day and it is really hard for me to understand how I would have been so willing to give up so easily back then. There was noting objective about my decision to end my life. The OP is a misanthrope BTW, so even though his arguements are sometimes well thought out, strip him of his arguements and I suspect there is a whole lot of hate towards everyone and everything in life. Sorry if that's ad hominem, but it's relevant toward his valuing of life. Nothing would make him happier than for some poor depressed bloke to take their own life (of their own free will that is) and he'd likely cheer you on.

You sound like you've already made up your mind Cosmic Trigger and honestly, speaking of folly and arrogance, that sounds like you got some of that going on yourself. Peoples minds change, they always have, and you are no exception. I hope you'll entertain the possibility that your mind may change, and when it does, I hope you won't have dug yourself in so deep as to conclude your mind changed incorrectly. Being suicidal is a part of the human condition, and it saddens me. The decision to go through with it is a freedom I value as well, so I don't presume to know if yours is actually one of the percentage of suicides that have merit on humanitarian grounds. That said, presuming you know now and forever what is right for you is cruel. I'd be suicidal too if suicide was the only just outcome I could envision for my life. You've rigged it so if you don't go through with suicide it'll be only because you are a failure. I hope you can stop torturing yourself that way. It's not worth romanticizing this stuff. Take care
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Well my situation is not yours and that's why I feel it's the right of every individual to make their own choices. I'm old now, I've got a painful disease, the idea of slow death in a hospital is not my cup of tea. If it's yours that's your right and I have no issues with that. I never make up my mind outside of this moment. If I decide to change my perspective I'll certainly do that but as of this moment in time I have no issues with self deliverance if the need arises.

As to the OP I have no idea what he is inside and so cannot label him nor would I want to. I try to be careful about judgements of others when I don't know what goes on inside their personal experience of life and living. As to me having folly and arrogance here I really don't see it. I think my position is well balanced and thoughtful and I speak only for myself, let others do the same and try not to label anyone other than myself.
 
belligerent drunk said:
In most cases, the person who wants to commit suicide does so because their life is a constant suffering that they feel they cannot take any longer, or do not see any possible change in the future. Sure, their death would most likely hurt their close ones, but what about the opposite? Basically the "close ones" are forcing the person to live a life of suffering just so they can feel better themselves by having the person around. Tell me that isn't selfish.

If the suicide is planned and there's a high degree of certainty that it's the right choice for the person, then it's an acceptable choice and governments should provide euthanasia service.
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This is very well put and I fully agree with your position. I know for myself if I loved someone I would not want them to suffer so that I would not have to. Thanks for posting.
 
Apologize for going on a tirade cosmic trigger. You are entitled to your opinion and some of the things I said weren't specifically directed at you and may not apply to you. Wishing you well and hope you feel better. As for the OP, I didn't see you around then when he was posting. I'm not one to judge either, but after him posting 100s of threads about pedophilia, homophobia, racism, self-torture, harm increasing drug use, suicide and much more where his perspective never failed to take the most hateful stance marketed as philosophy and intellectual curiousity, it's more about acknowledging reality and his BL legacy.
 
Could be. I am pretty recent to BL after a very long absence. However I just responded to this post and not his history. I would rather do that than make it personal and also everyone has a point that is spot on at times even if others are not. Some people are in a lot of emotional pain and become angry. This is a fact of life and is likely true for all of us at one point or another. When I respond to a thread subject I keep in mind that I'm actually talking to a lot of people rather than just one or two so I try to just stick to the merits of what is being presented at that moment.

And no apology necessary friend.
 
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