Should suicide be considered an acceptable choice for any reason?

[psychedelicsoul]

Now... I'm not so much asking what you personally think of suicide, but how you percieve the moral status of one who does it? I guess a few questions can be asked that shows that it's pretty complex.
1. If someone commits suicide, and nobody is around to morn their loss, then is it still a tragedy? If so... Then you must believe his life has inherent value. If not, then his live has no value as there are no others to give his life value
2. Is suicide wrong because of how it harms loved ones? If so, then that means that the only reason the person has value and should continue on living is for the sake of those around them. What if the majority of people hated you, and would delight in your death? Would that make your suicide a just act of kindness?
3. If a person chooses to commit suicide, and you stop them, are you not infringing on their individuality? Are you not simply forcing your will onto them?
4. Shouldn't religious suicide be considered a just and proper form of free exercise. As long as the participants are adults?
5. Let's say a child is very unsociable, and by his own fault, doesn't get along with peers. He kills himself as a result. Are the kids responsible for shunning him? Should children be made to get along with one another, simply to avoid the possibility of suicide? If nobody likes a kid and doesn't wanna be their friend, is it really their fault?
6. Is it wrong to assist in suicide for petty reasons, or make money off it? If I ran a Futurama-style suicide booth, would that make me a bad person?
7. At what point is suicide unreasonable. Let's say a child is beat up and bullied all his life and grows up to move pastit. But lets say another child faces only a fraction of what the other kid did, but killed himself... Isn't that other kid weak?
If me calling you names will make you kill yourself, how are you not weak? Kids bully other kids by nature. Primates display bullying too... For all of you who think bullying is something abnormal that comes as a result of societal programming and environment, you're wrong. Bullying is natural behavior in humans or chimpanzee's.

Basically the most common reason people give to say suicide is wrong is that it hurts the ones closest to the victim.. but I don't know. Why should someone have to live for other peoples sake?

 

[Foreigner]

People should be free to terminate their lives if they want. It's my life and my choice.

However, a lot of attempted suicide survivors I've spoken with have said they're glad they didn't succeed, and the brush with near death reset their lives to be on a better path.

Most suicide laws were created to provide agency to people who are in severe distress. A lot of people who are suicidal just don't see potential solutions. It's been said, "Suicide isn't wanting to die, it's wanting more life but not being sure how to access it." I believe this to be true for a lot of people. Unfortunately the system has evolved to be a lot more punitive than it should be. I don't feel that most modern medical systems have anything to do with healing, but are just business models. A friend of mine was suicidal and when her roommate called an ambulance they handcuffed her to a hospital bed for 24 hours, without food or water, before finally drugging her and sending her to outpatient psychiatry. The system can be brutal.

Those who genuinely feel that it's their time to go, or have political / religious motivations, I guess that's their choice. Activists who commit suicide make the biggest statements.

As for bullying... I disagree with your assessment. Bullying and roughhousing exist in nature and among humans but not to the psychopathic degree we are seeing in modern societies. It's mostly a result of the industrial schooling model and the punitive systems of conformity enforced on children, combined with dysfunctional home lives, which result in violent bullying. Kids go to school to get an education, not to get the crap beaten out of them or be told they're worthless human beings every single day.

I survived bullying without killing myself, does that make me strong? I dunno... maybe not when I have so many emotional scars which have impacted my adulthood. It's not a rite of passage as you make it seem.

 

[-=SS=-]

OP.. if you're considering it because of the allusions to bullying or not feeling adequate socially.. don't. Get angry and fired up, but not at yourself!

If someone gets really old or develops a terminal illness and wants to end their life with dignity and to avert suffering or a slow decline in their condition, then I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with it anyway.. it's your life, if you can't have the freedom to end it then you don't really have any freedom at all. But so many people attempt suicide, and some succeed, over such minor things (which seem major to them).. those who survive the attempts often have a tale to tell about the whole thing. Lot's of people in america who shoot themselves in the face, end up horribly disfigured, and then continue to live afterwards..

If I make it to a really old age and run out of money because the government has fucked my generation in the arse and swiped all our pensions/savings, to hell with it! I'll spend my last cash to go out in a blaze of glory. If anyone stops me then I'll just slash my wrists and run around making a horrible mess for someone else to clean up :D

 

[psychedelicsoul]

OP.. if you're considering it because of the allusions to bullying or not feeling adequate socially.. don't. Get angry and fired up, but not at yourself!

If someone gets really old or develops a terminal illness and wants to end their life with dignity and to avert suffering or a slow decline in their condition, then I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with it anyway.. it's your life, if you can't have the freedom to end it then you don't really have any freedom at all. But so many people attempt suicide, and some succeed, over such minor things (which seem major to them).. those who survive the attempts often have a tale to tell about the whole thing. Lot's of people in america who shoot themselves in the face, end up horribly disfigured, and then continue to live afterwards..

If I make it to a really old age and run out of money because the government has fucked my generation in the arse and swiped all our pensions/savings, to hell with it! I'll spend my last cash to go out in a blaze of glory. If anyone stops me then I'll just slash my wrists and run around making a horrible mess for someone else to clean up :D

True, but what should one do about someone who wants to commit suicide for a stupid reason.
Let's say they are crazy? Does that mean their thoughts aren't valid simply because they're mentally damaged?

Let's say someone swallows a bunch of pills to kill themselves for a petty, stupid reason... Then attempted to OD. Should paramedics, and Police forcibly take them to the hospital even if the person resists?

 

[nuttynutskin]

As for bullying... I disagree with your assessment. Bullying and roughhousing exist in nature and among humans but not to the psychopathic degree we are seeing in modern societies.

I agree... It used to be a scrap after school but now it's kids shooting up the school. I don't know exactly but I guess there's a few factors. Either way it's crazy.

 

[Nom de Plume]

Others before me have said better what I would say:

Every man has the right to risk his own life in order to preserve it. Has it ever been said that a man who throws himself out the window to escape from a fire is guilty of suicide?

—Rousseau

They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice, that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.

—Schopenhauer

 

[PerfectDisguise]

Others before me have said better what I would say:

Every man has the right to risk his own life in order to preserve it. Has it ever been said that a man who throws himself out the window to escape from a fire is guilty of suicide?

—Rousseau

They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice, that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person.

—Schopenhauer

Wow. I really like these quotes.

 

[snazzy_sn]

The latter quote kind of makes sense.

Suicide isn't selfish.
I don't really understand how that makes sense.
(I do but I don't, like maybe. people say this so casually though)


Not saying that suicide is right (or wrong), though.

 

[VMC75088over]

Ive been to the edge that was more than ten years ago. I'm glad I did not succeed with it I would have missed so many wonderful things. Life will get better things will improve I now know this. I have just lost a dear friend and family member of more than thirty years he could not see his way out but had so many good things to live for. Aside from being worth it you will make it through and be happy you did, Life hands us shit and sometimes we feel like it will never end and get better but it will. Ive seen first hand the devastation suicide causes on the other side to those who love you, I am struggling with it now as I write this. My own failed attempt should have worked but I woke up. It caused me to think and reset my life things were not all of a sudden wonderful I had to work at it but with a new perspective and a renewed will to live I made it. My life is good my children have grown into responsible adults right before my eyes, I would have missed that. My wife of thirty years is my best friend and we have grown together as best friends, I would have missed out on that. Too many good things to list here right now, along with some tough things it's not all roses but Ive learned that things pass and things get better, they always get better.

People, you are worth it and deserve to have a good life the way they/you choose to live it, as simple as they/you choose to live it. Please let time heal let us carry you if you feel you can't do it yourself lean on others and make it through.

God Bless you all

 

[Xorkoth]

^^ Great post.

I understand the rationale and allure of suicide... I have never quite been there but there was a period in 2013 for basically the whole year where I fantasized about it, I really wanted to die but I was unwilling to do it myself. I would wish that I'd have an accident or something, or think about how I would do it. Definitely the lowest period of my life. The main thing that always kept me from going there was that I knew how much pain it would cause to my loved ones. It would absolutely devastate my parents, my family, my friends... it would be just horrible for them. I knew a girl I went to high school with who killed herself. Her mother never recovered and killed herself like a year later. It really is a choice that does not exist in a vacuum... ultimately it's your life but the nature of humans is that we love, and we are powerfully connected to our loved ones

For what it's worth, I rebounded from that once I dealt with what was causing it and now I am the happiest I have ever been, life is amazing. Life is a rollercoaster and it's always going to go up and down. It's always possible to rebound from depression, it's not always easy but it's always worth the work.

 

[ForEverAfter]

It's always possible to rebound from depression, it's not always easy but it's always worth the work.

I love the contrast that my high moments have, thanks to the low moments.
Live is - perhaps - even more beautiful, when it has been ugly.

God Bless you all

Amen.

 

[Joker11789]

If people wish to die and are healthy perhaps they should receive some help first but if they're dead set on it I don't really care ...

Some people commit suicide day by day without realizing it with toxic habits and never changing it is prolonged suffering and if you have all your other goals fulfilled or never can achieve them or don't care to and maybe have no family ..what's the harm if you do it in a way that doesn't mentally scar anyone say a passerby .

I really do think making people live be you think they should is wrong and sick and could be semi imprisonment perhaps they believe suicide leads to something after? Also anyone terminally ill should be allowed to do it without any worries for their family,friends or interference and people that interfere are worse than anything .

Now with all that said about choice I would hate to find someone I knew killed themselves , pleas don't just give up if anyone's thinking about that please realize at any moment you can change things or things can happen to just change everything in a great way .

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah I'm not saying I think it's not a person's right to do, I just think it probably isn't the right choice except in cases where there is a terminal illness... or maybe you know you're about to be brutally killed or something and you could save yourself the agony. And I primarily think this because of the pain it causes to loved ones, a permanent and horrible scar. So in that sense what you're saying is, I know that will happen but I'm still deciding to do it. I can see how it would be interpreted as selfish because of this, even though I don't know if it is. Ultimately the reason I never fully went there when I was that depressed is because I felt like it would be selfish of me, because of the pain it would cause. And I'm certainly glad I didn't because I wouldn't have gotten to experience the greatness of when I recovered from that period of time.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

Isn't everyone a little bit of a hypocrite?

You know... as much as I type here about suicide and how it's a pure example of individuality and ones own free will, I must admit something...

If my best friend tried to kill himself, I'd call 911. And if a stranger did it, I'd call 911 simply for the glory of being called a hero. I know that's a very, very, selfish way to think, but if I called 911 and saved a person, people might look at me as a hero. So I would just do it to bask in the glory.

Now, that goes against my ideology. I say you shouldn't interfere in suicide because it's free will. However, I would miss my friend if he died, so I would take my own selfish desire to see him live, and force it onto him.
What does that make me?
It makes me a selfish hypocrite. I would let somebody else commit suicide if there was no way I'd get any credit or fame in it for me. However, I would selfishly force my will onto a friend if he tried to kill him self. There's no other way to put it. If I called 911 on my friend if he tried to take his own life, that would make me selfish and hypocritical.

But you know what else it would make me? Human. I'm not some robot who can act 100% on my personal beliefs without any empathy, or emotions.
Humans are weak creatures. Because of my petty, and selfish emotions, I cannot live 100% by my philosophy. That makes me a hypocrite. Maybe being a hypocrite isn't THAT bad. Because even if you break your own rules sometimes, it doesn't mean you don't actually believe in your own sense of right and wrong.
Even though I would call 911 to save his life, I still would accept that my actions were selfish. It's just the way humans are. Emotions tend to cloud our integrity.

 

[swilow]

I merged your threads.

 

[ForEverAfter]

The thing about absolute free will is: exercising your will impedes another's ability to exercise their own; you cannot be absolutely free unless you live in a void. (You say it's selfish to stop somebody from killing themselves, because they should be free to do so... but you should also be free to stop them.)

There's nothing selfish about wanting to save your friend.
And there's nothing selfish about not saving a stranger.

The world is over-populated.
We need to adopt this multiple-personality system, where we care and we don't care at the same time.
Our values differ, depending on the situation.

We need our friends to live.
We don't need strangers.

Is that selfish, because of the word "need"?
I don't think so. It's just survival.
And, I suppose survival is selfish?
If so, everything is selfish.
And selfish means nothing.

You have a tendency, PS, to overthink things until they make less sense than they did to begin with.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

The thing about absolute free will is: exercising your will impedes another's ability to exercise their own; you cannot be absolutely free unless you live in a void. (You say it's selfish to stop somebody from killing themselves, because they should be free to do so... but you should also be free to stop them.)

There's nothing selfish about wanting to save your friend.
And there's nothing selfish about not saving a stranger.

The world is over-populated.
We need to adopt this multiple-personality system, where we care and we don't care at the same time.
Our values differ, depending on the situation.

We need our friends to live.
We don't need strangers.

Is that selfish, because of the word "need"?
I don't think so. It's just survival.
And, I suppose survival is selfish?
If so, everything is selfish.
And selfish means nothing.

You have a tendency, PS, to overthink things until they make less sense than they did to begin with.

Do we need our friends? Wouldn't friendship count as a "want" not a "need"

 

[ForEverAfter]

Yes; No.

 

[Xorkoth]

Humans evolved to be cooperative, social creatures. It's hard-wired in our brains to love our friends and family, and it's a deep need of ours. It may be there are some people who truly don't need other people, just because there is variance in the human species as in any species, but I'm not convinced that people who feel that way aren't just reacting to deep pain and using it as a self-defense mechanism. And anyway the majority of people, myself included, truly do need friends. I wouldn't be able to be happy without people to love and share things with.

 

[kvsouth69]

I believe there are times when it is absolutely acceptable--when you know 100% you are going to die and want to avoid the suffering (ex POW, disease). Some people are so mentally ill they do not realize their act until it is too late. And I do NOT believe suicides go to hell. I believe that whatever made you decide suicide in life (except for health reasons, or POW stuff), you are still going to go throught the mental and emotional agony until you can get beyond it. So, no matter what, it still is NEVER a good choice.