Health Robotic thinking

[red22]

I was just reading this text from an article written about LSD pioneer, Stanislav Grof:

For example, one of those clients was coming down from the session and felt really mad, really angry, and he had pain in his shoulder. And he said, “I feel if I could get through this pain, I would feel better. Could you put some pressure there?” So I put some pressure, but he said, “Not enough! More!” My own shoulder felt like it was breaking, but it still was not enough. Finally, he started screaming and growling and coughing and shaking. He went on like this for a while, maybe twenty minutes — and then he kind of relaxed and was in a great place.

The next time, a female patient was coming down and experiencing terrible nausea. She said, “I have really bad feelings here,” and pointed to her stomach, so I poked her a little with my hand. Her projectile vomiting missed me by a few inches, but soon she felt great. I saw that we can do things to get better integration of psychedelic sessions.

I started doing [integration] routinely. In several patients, this bodywork triggered fast breathing, kind of what's called psychotic breathing. They told me that the faster breathing took them back into the session. The drug had already worn off, but fast breathing suddenly brought them back, almost like they were in the middle of the session again. So I saw that faster breathing can somehow bring material out of the unconscious to consciousness.

Back in the Day with Stanislav Grof. Sam Stern, May 8, 2023, esalen.org

And I thought to myself, this is one of the main reasons psychedelics aren't accepted by mainstream medicine: people think bad behavior/symptoms = bad. While Grov views such symptoms as a fever (part of a healing process), dumb/ignorant scientists/doctors have simply recorded a lot of negative effects in the research and hospital setting over time and have created a pile of junk data that is used to support the belief that psychedelics are poisons.


Recent post of mine about the "purging" of ayahuasca and after that a relevant excerpt from Grof where he mentions what can be equated to the term, "side effects":

The vomiting isn't guaranteed.


It’s happen quite often actually. Personally, I have probably vomited only 2 times in my last 200 ceremonies, haven’t vomited nor felt nauseous for more than 100 ceremonies now. I felt much more nausea and vomited more often in my earlier days, so there might be a connection. Maybe you have purged out a lot of stuff that needs to get cleared by vomiting, I would not make a rule out of it though.

I never know what my next ceremony will be like, surprise seems to be the only constant

Bollomir, May 27, 2024, reddit


I have no idea why I don’t purge. I often feel like I might, but then I don’t. I clean out in other ways, certainly. My late husband was the same way. He must have drunk ayahuasca thousands of times and he never purged, not even once. He used to faint, though. I throw up when I have food poisoning or the stomach flu, so it isn’t like my body can’t do it. I find it completely mysterious.

Golden_Mandala, Jul 12, 2024, reddit


In addition, during the session, some people have cramps, shake, or feel pain in various parts of the body, usually those parts that need healing.

All these symptoms that may appear dreadful are in fact a blessing; they add depth to the experience. The emetic and cathartic properties of ayahuasca may be associated with an inner cleansing process by which participants can rid themselves of bad habits, negative emotions, traumas, and so on. Ayahuasca may indeed be a detoxifying agent. After a series of sessions, one woman found that her blood levels of mercury poisoning had decreased drastically. When the session is over, participants very often report that they feel purified. This adds to the next morning’s feeling of inner peace and clarity.

Inner Paths to Outer Space: Journeys to Alien Worlds through Psychedelics & Other Spiritual Technologies. Rick Strassman MD, Slawek Wojtowicz, Luis Eduardo Luna Ph.D, Ede Frecska. 2008. 5. The Varieties of the Ayahuasca Experience. Ayahuasca's Physicality (Luna)


Many emetics arent toxic. Just because something makes you puke doesnt mean its toxic. Emetics are usually used to treat toxic ingestions, not to cause toxic reactions themselves.

Tannins in the Ayahuasca can most certainly make you puke. But everyones body is different, so what dose makes one person puke wont necessarily cause another person to puke. But emetic reactions are not the only reason people puke on Ayahuasca - energy has a big part to do with it. I have seen Ayahuasca shamans make a patiant puke just from such intense energy work even though the patiant didnt take any plants themselves. I've also seen people feel fine for hours after drinking then suddenly puke way later when some big energy came up. If you get more experienced with Ayahuasca you quickly learn that while the physical brew might make people purge sometimes, a lot of purging happens from other reasons like emotions and energy that need to be released.

I have drank huge doses without nausea before and have also purged heavily from tiny doses when there was a lot of energy to release. If you try to understand Ayahuasca on only doses and physical chemical reactions you will never understand it, because there is so much more to it then that.

MapachoCura, Jul 13, 2024, reddit


Here is a relevant quote about mescaline:

Charles Savage was convinced—this the first real argument I had with him—that mescaline was an emetic. I said, “No, it's not an emetic. It's just that people get into things that make them sick. But if the experience is conducted right, that can be avoided and those things resolved without their throwing up.” Well, he didn't agree with me, but I don't think we ever had a person throw up, in all our foundation's work.

Higher Wisdom: Eminent Elders Explore the Continuing Impact of Psychedelics. Walsh R, Grob CS (editors). 2005. 3. Myron Stolaroff


This LSD study is also relevant. It says that out of 42 treatments, vomiting was only experienced 3 times:

Experimental physiological studies with lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD-25). Forrer GR, Goldner RD. AMA Arch Neurol Psychiatry. 1951 May;65(5):581-8. doi: 10.1001/archneurpsyc.1951.02320050038004.

See ‘Results’.


In this video, the guru says that psychedelics “don't have any side effects”, and this claim is remarkable as she also conveys that she isn't an advocate of psychedelics:

Technow Savvy Programs for Progress in Meditation: Are They Effective? (1:57). Anandmurti Gurumaa, YouTube, Jul 9, 2009


Video description of a video about ayahuasca purging:

Do you always have to vomit during Ayahuasca?. Maria Johanna, YouTube, Aug 15, 2019

When people think about Ayahuasca, they often think that purging is always part of the experience. But this is definitely not true! Not everyone has to vomit during their Ayahuasca experience. I would say that 50% of the participants have to purg, and the other half do not. Another thing is that purging in a Ceremony is not the same as when you’re ill. It’s a different experience. It helps you to release, to let go and to go deeper. A lot of people experience purging during a Ceremony even as comforting!

The healing medicines

Ayahuasca is an healing medicine. It’s not something you do for fun. It’s serious business. And for most people it’s a life-changing experience. When people want to do Ayahuasca for the first time, I recommend them to do 2 days in a row. That’s because many times the first Ceremony is all about cleaning up and also throwing up.

Cleaning to open up

There are several reasons why it can be that you have to vomit during an Ayahuasca Ceremony. It can be that your body has to be cleansed before you can open the portals that lead you deeper inside for the experience that you need. Your body is not used to go that deep. When you purg, you raise your frequency and you open up your consciousness and your true potential.

Surrender

It can also be the case that you have difficulties to surrender, that you want to be in control. The purging can help you to surrender. You throw up to surrender to the medicines. Sometimes people are fighting against the medicines, against thier journey, because they want to stay in control. They are fighting until they finally throw up and in so many cases people have after the vomiting they have the most wonderful experience they could ever imagine.

Healing work

But one of the most important reasons for purging during an Ayahuasca Ceremony is because you are doing healing work. We all are carrying trauma. Even if you’re not aware of it. There have been moments in your life, when you could not express the emotions that you were feeling at that moment. Ayahuasca can lead you back, into your past and let you re-experience these events. The emotions of these past experiences are still stuck in your body and by throwing up, you can heal this and let go of it forever. This could have to do with a trauma from the past, certain behavior or even addictions. It can also be the case that you have blockages in your system and therefore you can’t love yourself enough. And by releasing these blockages you can love yourself more.

Other ways of releasing

The energy can also choose another way to clean the body or release emotions. In that case it could be that you suddenly have to go to the toilet. It can also be that you sweat a lot during your experience or that strong breathing is helping you. In all cases these things occur to help you to clean and/or release.

Don’t be scared to throw up

I would really like to point out to you, that you don’t have to be scared to come to an Ayahuasca Ceremony because of the vomiting that could be part of your experience. Purging is just a moment. Many participants say it is such a relieve to purge during an Ayahuasca Ceremony. And they feel they can release something and they feel just wonderful. So, you don’t have to be scared for throwing up. And remember, it’s good to choose the path where you fear is, because when you go beyond your fear, is exactly the place where you set yourself free.

By and large, I have not been able to discover during the analyses of my data any distinct pharmacological effects of LSD in humans that would be constant and invariant and could therefore be considered drug specific. Thus, I consider LSD to be a powerful unspecific amplifier or catalyst of biochemical and physiological processes in the brain. It seems to create a situation of undifferentiated activation that facilitates the emergence of unconscious material from different levels of the personality. The richness as well as the unusual inter- and intraindividual variability of the LSD experience can thus be explained by the decisive participation of extrapharmacological factors, such as the personality of the subject and the structure of his unconscious, the personality of the therapist or sitter, and the set and the setting in all their complexity. The capacity of LSD and some other psychedelic drugs to exteriorize otherwise invisible phenomena and processes and make them the subject of scientific investigation gives these substances a unique potential as diagnostic instruments and as research tools for the exploration of the human mind. It does not seem inappropriate and exaggerated to compare their potential significance for psychiatry and psychology to that of the microscope for medicine or the telescope for astronomy.

Grof, Stanislav. 1975. Realms of the human unconscious: Observations from LSD research. New York: Viking Press. 1. General Introduction / Heuristic Value of LSD Research

 

[pupnik]

Although I sympathize with frustration felt in the face of "mainstream medical attitudes" I have a couple of problems with this post.
Among medical researchers there is a vast range of personalities and experimental investigations constantly underway, especially in Neurology, Neurophysics, Neuroanalysis, Theories of Cognition and still a lot of confusion reigns over the domain.
With fNMR and Bold Imaging we have begun to identify "networks" or at least brain areas that have sustained blood use over periods of time as little as 6 seconds.
From that body of experimentation, the only insights related to LSD and Psilocybin are that what is called the DMN shows less blood use, and various other regions show more blood use.

I have made many deductions from that, but am not part of the Scientific community proper.

Nevertheless the Medical community is actually ruled by the American Medical Association and the Insurance Underwriters who have the final say in what practices are insurable - basically what court claims they will defend against. Note the lengthy disclaimers for every drug sold in America and probably the world. These are legal documents required by Insurance companies that support these industries.

The decisions made in courts condition what are in those disclaimers, and what practices Doctors are allowed.

Clever or not, this is the lay of the land that our interest group faces.



Anyway, what has been found is that neurons exposed to psychedelics will display excitatory postsynaptic potential threshold changes that make them more responsive to lower action potentials . This supports the fact that a pulse sequence involving Cortical Neurons will fire for a longer sequence under the influence of psychedelics - (which I declare is what makes them show up on BOLD fNMR images - I.e. they are active for longer durations including feedback up to and over 6 seconds)

Excitatory postsynaptic potential - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annurev-physiol-042022-020923

as there is not too much theory integrating this information medically, a consensus upon meaning is yet to follow.