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Religous Fundamentalists and Government

honEbee

honEbee

Bluelighter
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Jul 31, 2000
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I have a question for the religous fundamentalists (Christians) out there.

If you believe that God gave you free will to either follow or not follow his teachings, then how do you reconcile taking away that free will from others by imposing laws that are religous in nature?

Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution promote religious freedom. How can you support religion in our government when they seem to be at odds? I'm not saying that religion does not belong in the US. What I'm saying is that the two (government and religion) should be mutually exclusive. And religion should be a private/personal decision and not regulated if you are following the governmental laws of the US and the ideal that God gave everyone of us free will.

It just seems hypocritical to me. How can you support the basis of our Constitution AND try to impose religous laws at the same time?

The most important thing that God endowed us with (IMO) is free will. If you look at Adam and Eve he gave them free will to either eat or not eat from the Tree of Life. Of course they paid the consequences for whatever decision they made. But still...if God won't even take away that freedom from each person, how can you be so bold to?

And please let's not turn this into a "is religion real or fake" discussion. I'm asking for opinions from people that believe in Christianity. Not a dispute of the religion itself.
 
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Yeah I thought along these lines a while ago, and doesnt the bible say something like do what you wanna do as long as you follow the 12 commandments? But overall, in such large social groups, we require laws with consiquences that happen in this life. Or people would just be killing each other all the time, you know, like in revenge and feuds.
 
Well making laws doesn't impede on someones will at all, as you can see with the number of criminals in our society. People will certainly do what they want.

And what religious laws are imposed upon you exactly? I really don't see any religion in the government in my country (Australia), or see any need for change because we live in a multicultural society.

Could I get a bit more clarification in your post about imposing religious laws and such?
 
I suspect you may be leading into a gay marriage debate. But the problem is simply that most of us don't believe two people of the same sex getting married is marriage by our definition. Why are you trying to impose your definition of what marriage is upon us?

On the other hand, I really couldn't care less what laws we have or don't have, they are just to guide us, for in the end God judges us all. Also I believe that all of God's true laws are written into our hearts and we suffer when we disobey them.


Random Bible verses that may or may not have relevevance to you, take what you will ;)

Rom1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
 
It is funny how our own prejiduces get raised up to "its gods will" or some other grandure. At least kids throwing tantrums are honest about what they feel.
 
Lets' see...the religious laws imposed on me: Blue laws (businesses have to be closed on Sunday at a certain time because they want to allow for "the day of rest" as according to the bible), no marriage between gay people (no I don't want to turn this into a gay marriage debate), they are trying to stop abortion (and that is due to religious reasons), when you testify in court you have to swear on the "holy bible" that you are telling the truth (I don't know what that means for people that don't believe in it), a lot of old laws are still in place making sodomy (even between two consenting adults) illegal, and having an affair in many states is still against the law. And I'm sure there are many more it's just it would take me longer than I want to compile them.

My 8th grade Civics teacher told me "your rights end where another's begin". I've always viewed that as how to appropriately make laws. Therefore murder, stealing, raping, etc etc. would be wrong as they impose on another's rights. To me, the laws that protect you against them have nothing at all to do with religion. It's just basic rights issues.

I'm still curious to hear from a Christian (or any other religion) that believes we should include (their) religion in our laws. And how they can support that and the Constitution (freedom of religion and seperation of Church and State) at the same time.
 
Well i'm not sure about the blue laws here, but i think they are just out of respect for the overwhelming majority of christians in your country. But i agree, the government shouldn't tell people when to close their buisness.

Definition of marriage to most people in your country is different to yours, so that's pretty hard to change.

Swearing on the bible is optional in America.

Affairs: I think this is so much worse then stealing... so yeah. What are the penalties on this anyway?

Also I agree on your sodomy point, the government has no place telling concenting adults where to put there what in where.
 
In GA (and in many other states) can't buy alcohol on Sundays either.

To me. not only is this religious law, but Christain law... and even Jews don't agree on... since their Sabbath is on Saturday and all. :\
 
^^
I think that's the whole purpose of separation of church and state. So that no one religion is being promoted. Although obviously, the Christian religion is pushed on everyone thru laws and politics in the US. I think it makes for an oppression atmosphere for all other religions.

And to CS - I'm not sure what the penalities for adultery are. I'm sure it varies from state to state. And I don't even think it's been really used much to prosecute people (except in a very few cases - probably in divorce proceedings or something similiar).
 
Lets not forget that prostitution and drugs are still illegal in this country, which I'm sure have a certain level of religious ideology behind them.

When I talk to Christians that try to get up in politics with the abortion debate or whatever, I just casually remind them that when you get religion and government mixed together you get shit like the Taliban. Although, to be honest, I think the ultra social conservatives in this country secretly wish they had a government like the taliban, only christian.
 
Void, its the 10 commandments, NOT the 12 commandments. ;)

Personally, i dont think that our laws are at all mandated by religion, they are mandadted by us as a people. And as a people we are mostly a God (Christian) believing people and thus our laws reflect that. Having sunday off is a bad thing? YOu are offended that religious people are allowed to have a day to recognize their faith!? F you then is what i have to say. Quite being so selfish and TRY to respect others just like you wantr them to respect you.

And the laws that we have in regards to stealing, killing, etc are laws that nonreligious people have too, this isnt because of Christianity, its you trying to make it out to be that way.

None of the things you listed are in any way shape or form "bad" things that actually hurt you or anyone else...NOBODY is forcing to to worship ANY god at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop making it sound like you are being forced into a religion.

As far as should religion and gov mix goes, that is a bit more tricky. I believe in a speration of church and state, but NOT the the extent that liberals have tried taking it. There always should be a representation of the people, and if the people elect people who have their same views, and thus laws are passed representing those views, who are you to bitch about it? Just vote for someone else and hope they win! JUST like as a christian i have to deal with so many anti-God lawas such as abortion. It works both ways.
 
There always should be a representation of the people, and if the people elect people who have their same views, and thus laws are passed representing those views, who are you to bitch about it? Just vote for someone else and hope they win! JUST like as a christian i have to deal with so many anti-God lawas such as abortion. It works both ways.
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Wrong. You don't have to deal with abortion laws, unless someone is trying to make you have an abortion. Sure, you may experience some frustration that people would do something as ungodly as kill a fetus. But what about the frustration of not being able to visit your partner in the hospital because you aren't married? You see, even though an abortion may be bad, it isn't personally affecting YOU.

YOU think something is bad (abortion), and you want a law against it.

I think something is good (gay marriage), and you want a law against it.

You think that only your values matter. Which is fine and everything. Everyone does this to some degree. But don't act like it should "go both ways." That is bullshit. Neither side should be infringing upon the rights of others.
 
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SoHiAllTheTime said:

None of the things you listed are in any way shape or form "bad" things that actually hurt you or anyone else...NOBODY is forcing to to worship ANY god at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop making it sound like you are being forced into a religion.
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No it's not forcing me to worship, but it's forcing me to abide by rules that i may or may not believe in, based on a foundation that i may or may not believe in, as well as many others.

You might not be forced under a religion, but remnants of religious tyranny are still present in various governmental systems, not just the US.

Why should i not be allowed to purchase alcohol on Sunday? Or why shouldn't a woman not be allowed to abort when the debate is still WIDE open and will continue to be? Why should one couple be kept from marriage because another's beliefs (mostly founded in religion) say so? Why should my children be either forced or coerced to resite His name in Pledges and nationalistic songs? Why must out dollar bills, a symbol of a sin in the Bible anyways.. greed, be adorned with a slogan of special interest favortism? Why should court houses display favoritism with religious, racial, or gender displays?

What's so wrong with allowing people to be free, not favored, not damned.. so as long as their freedom does not impede on the freedom of others?

Why, other than selfishness and insecurity, does any group push for special interest and think they are higher and mightier than another?

Religious favoritism.. is basically the same mentality that backs Affirmative Action. It's the same as legislated racism in small doses as well.
 
SoHiAllTheTime said:
And the laws that we have in regards to stealing, killing, etc are laws that nonreligious people have too, this isnt because of Christianity, its you trying to make it out to be that way.
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SoHi - if you actually read what I wrote about this you would see that that was NOT what I said. I said those laws were regular laws that protected others rights and had no religious bent.

NOBODY is forcing to to worship ANY god at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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No but they are forcing me to live by their religion's rules by making laws based on their faith (that I don't agree with).

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It's obvious to me that you have a problem with me personally and simply cannot comment without attacks as in "F You!". And selfish? LOL! Yeahhhhh right. Selfish is wanting to impose your beliefs on others. Any religion can have any day off for worship that they like. I'm all for it. More power to them. But that's their personal choice. It shouldn't be a law. If you don't like me that's fine. But at least leave out the personal attacks. *I* do respect others. Obviously you don't.

I just simply wanted a well thought out response from someone that believed in Christianity. I was NOT attacking your religion (or anyone elses). I'm sure you'd be shocked to know that I believe in God, though not necessarily the same way you do. I actually think religion is a good thing (as long as it's kept a personal choice and does not impede on other's rights).

And in regards to your bit about choosing leaders that propose either Christian or non-Christian laws or rules, what does that mean about the separation of Church and State? NO laws are supposed to be religious in nature - it's part of our Constitution. And it's not because they want to outlaw religion and make it a bad thing. It's to protect other religions. Which is something I fully support. I wouldn't want to live in a hostile environment and not be able to worship in the way I want, which is what happens when you promote one religion over another.
 
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>>I have a question for the religous fundamentalists (Christians) out there.
>>

Perhaps you should post to a board with more of these. :)
seems like this thread is doing fine though.
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Y'know, i'd like to see someone argue against gay marriage by saying that a "union between a man and a woman" is analytic within the concept of "marriage" by virtue of the logical structure of the universe as such...like Frege would argue with sane examples. :) that would entertain me.

ebola
 
^^
why not make a post about it? We have some pretty good debaters here. I'd be interested to read the responses myself.

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BL is the only BB I have time for. Although I do read from a variety of online news sites. Plus I think it's tops. I swear we have some of the most intelligent, well thought out people you could ever hope to get in one place.
 
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