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Reincarnation and conciousness: Scientific perspective

Bucklecroft Rudy

Bucklecroft Rudy

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Is conciousness neurally generated or is the brain simply a receiver with the conciousness existing in an another dimension? The latter seems to be the case with nde which occur when the brain is completely dead (but before necrosis which suggests some residual activity). The problem is that we havent yet discovered how conciousness is generated. Merely saying that the brain generates it isnt enough. To be self aware. If the brain generated conciousness as a sum of the whole neural network then computers would be conscious however even the most advanced computers perform tasks by rote - they cannot generate true spontaneous thought or experience emotions.
If the brain is like a radio that is appearing to generate conciousness but in fact merely picking up a signal and making it audible then conciousness itself could well be extra-dimensional hence the need to have something to pick up the signal so to speak - meaning that reincarnation is highly highly likely. Whether you believe in the religious concepts attached to it is irrelvant. I speak of reincarnation outside of a religious context. Consciousness could easily exist as pure energy in a seperate dimension to our one. This intelligent energy is able to manifest in this corporeal world through the human body. For all we know humans may not have been conscious at first but merely automatons. Its impossible to disprove or prove but its entirely possible that theres a symbiotic relationship whereby humans receive an identity '(conciousness) and we receive a body but the merging of the two creates a new identity or sense of self - were locked in basically so mind and body become one cohesive unit with no discernible point at which one begins and the other ends.

I digressed there admittedly into fantasy but when it comes to the science of conciousness its impossible to be too fantastic since we know so little. I could raise the Eden story and how man became alive after the breath of God - that may have been what transformed man into thinking intelligent self aware man - divine energy if you will. What exactly makes a person feel? Saying its an illusion isnt satisfactory because it shows a lack of understanding of how complex human awareness is. Every physical process has a clear origin and function consciousness doesnt.

I seem to have been speculating alot and experimenting with pseudoscience but hey it makes for interesting lean talk. Im aware that quantum physics may one day provide the answer but im not convinced that something as simple as the sensation of warmth nay the perception of it can be explained away. Theres something incredible about the fact that we perceive the world in such an intimate and vivid fashion.
 
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I think the perspective that consciousness is "generated" or "received" by the brain is absurd. That would imply that consciousness is distinct from, and something OTHER than, your nervous system. I think that your consciousness IS simply the electrical impulses hopping across the neural synapses of your brain.
 
While there's nothing absurd about this idea, It's tough to get a scientific fix on it because you could always argue that we haven't come close to building computers complex enough to even resemble the brain, and that it IS simply the sum of its parts, yet parts that we don't fully understand yet making it seem more mysterious than it is. Or we could take the "radio" analogy, but what would be the hypothesis for that? There are no survival traits that would be determined by self-awareness? I suppose, but that's something that would need to be extensively tested against mere perceptiveness or knowledge gathering, storing, and transferring. It does raise interesting questions though, cool thread. If consciousness is simply the sum of the parts, that would require a lot more knowledge and hypothesis testing as well, so there's no reason to write off the idea like that.

I could argue, though, that our perceptions of things is simply the by-product of how they affect our survivability. So if we didn't perceive warmth as we did we'd not know when to get out of the cold or seek out places where our enzymes can operate at their optimal functionality. But it's that nagging "i think therefore I am" aspect of our lives that leaves me in wonder still. We know that we're alive, but is that merely a byproduct of the adaptable mental trait of logical thinking, or is there a deeper awareness there?
 
3 immediate thoughts:

neurons are our consciousnesses physical substrate, computation is independent of its physical substrate. i think we're complicated computers (because i believe that information processing is fundamental to physics, the universe is a giant computer, as part of the universe, we are therefore computers. the idea deserves an enitre thread, its had books written about it, so i doubt this quick outline makes sense), so our brains being made of neurons is a contingent rather than necessary fact. i don't think consciousness can be explained in terms of neurons, much like traffic jams can't be explained in terms of physical facts pertaining to car engines, emergence is key.

self awareness is subjective, one can argue that computers are in a sense self aware, they can do system checks etc. theres also an epistemic problem there, how would we know a computer is self aware? the concept may be too anthropocentric at the moment.

if were picking up signals from another dimension, what are they? i don't see how the analogy serves to solve any problems, how is it not just rewriting the mind/body problem?
 
As people here mostly use drugs, i'm somewhat baffled that people think consciousness is anything more than a mechanical process. After all, a lot of you will have first hand experience of consciousness being wildly altered by purely chemical processes, ie. drugs interacting with receptors.

No doubt the mechanisms underlying consciousness are very, very complex, but I personally think that the neuroscience and discoveries we can make with that is a lot more interesting and in many ways more mysterious than attributing consciousness to something divine or alterdimensional.
 
nAON said:
As people here mostly use drugs, i'm somewhat baffled that people think consciousness is anything more than a mechanical process. After all, a lot of you will have first hand experience of consciousness being wildly altered by purely chemical processes, ie. drugs interacting with receptors.

No doubt the mechanisms underlying consciousness are very, very complex, but I personally think that the neuroscience and discoveries we can make with that is a lot more interesting and in many ways more mysterious than attributing consciousness to something divine or alterdimensional.
Click to expand...

Yes, but if you believe in immaterial or supernatural phenomena, and that consciousness itself is such a phenomenon, couldn't it be influenced or triggered by a material event? (Such as drug / receptor interaction?)


Really, though, I think that the immaterial / material dichotomy is totally useless, and I very much agree with the above post.
 
TheAppleCore said:
Yes, but if you believe in immaterial or supernatural phenomena, and that consciousness itself is such a phenomenon, couldn't it be influenced or triggered by a material event? (Such as drug / receptor interaction?)


Really, though, I think that the immaterial / material dichotomy is totally useless, and I very much agree with the above post.
Click to expand...


there is a trigger, and it seems, and i believe that the Spine/Vertebrae should mostly, besides the Frontal Vortex
be attributed to this "phenomena" - i can and will elaborate with references if anyone wants me to, happily.


the spine is in a sheathing, this sheathing is made up nearly entirely of gray-brain matter, our DNA/RNA strains are also accessible, and interact along the spinal column, which from the Sacrum, ends at the temporal lobe, generally speaking. once the flow of this "energy" is controlled, which comes by balancing ones chakras, and merkabha etc, practicing Yoga(by definition), and meditations, proper diet...this becomes available, as it is to all of us.

'kundalini energy' is the term used to describe this process -The Biology Of Kundalini- is a book available to read on-line, or purchased. Kundalini Energy, is what one should be aiming for here, not drugs or hedonism.


in our DNA, which we have 12 strands of, we are able to access and recall what we knew, with in 7 generations. languages, professions, memories, gender...this is an ancient practice, BTW, nothing newWave or fadMagicK.
ill be back ~

_________________________________________
((i have a blog here about 'past-life-regression' and my experiences/practices...for anyone sincerely interested)
 
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The one question science can never answer is why you are living the life you are, as the person you are, right now, as opposed to some other one, or none at all. Even if it were to be scientifically proven that your existence right now is entirely natural and predictable from the laws of physics, there would still be the possibility that this entire universe was put into motion so that you could live the conscious existence you presently enjoy. One might argue that this possibility is remote, but I say there's no way to gauge the likelihood of something like this.

As for reincarnation, I see it as very plausible. If the universe could organize itself in such a way as to have the first-person perspective it's having right now through you, why not again? It's assumed by some that the emergence of your sentient existence was a random one-time accident, never to be repeated. I say it's just as likely to be a very common and recurrent phenomenon, perhaps even common enough to qualify as a continuous property of the universe.

As for consciousness and science, where I stand presently is that consciousness does not reduce. This is not to say that science has nothing to say about it. But it's too fundamental to reality as we know it to break down into any simpler terms or easy descriptions. I think we're a long way off from producing artificial consciousness, and farther still from ever proving beyond any doubt that we truly have produced sentient consciousness, as we know it, in non-animal form. Furthermore, I call into question the merits to the human condition (or to the existential situation of the sentient beings we'd create!) of even striving to do such a thing. It's a cool idea that makes for good fiction, but I fail to see how actually doing it ultimately helps us achieve what matters most to us.

Reading stories about people claiming to have lived another life, and going to their former home towns and recognizing people and things there is good lowbrow fun. I believe most of these stories aren't completely made up, that is, the incident of somebody making this claim and appearing to back it up really happened. But how many of these can be attributed to conartistry is anybody's guess. I could even see an adult putting a child up to something like this, depending on the time and the place we're talking about, so as to exploit people who thought they'd seen a miracle. I picture reincarnation or rebirth as being very different from just being born as a human being again in a distant town, temporally not long after your last life ended. I imagine the whole universe wadding up and being reformed over countless eons, with your new "I" being the end product of this whole new universe, and having a life-form that we humans would not recognize. But the time passes between these two sentient existences in a flash, because there's no "I" there to see it.

This is something I've had a sense of for a long time, but had a hard time coming up with the words to express it.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
I imagine the whole universe wadding up and being reformed over countless eons, with your new "I" being the end product of this whole new universe, and having a life-form that we humans would not recognize. But the time passes between these two sentient existences in a flash, because there's no "I" there to see it.

This is something I've had a sense of for a long time, but had a hard time coming up with the words to express it.
Click to expand...

Really interesting. Reminds me very closely of some thoughts I had on one particularly interesting DMT trip, which I've been meaning to write about for quite some time now.

Also has hints of egocentrism to it. Perhaps the entire universe is simply the mechanism for my own conscious awareness? Rather than consciousness being divided into a multitude of unique instances, and centered within every individual human being, it is a product of all human beings existing together as parts of an inseparable unity. That one and only consciousness just think it's centered in MY body. ;)

Which is a result of a function of my mind called the "ego", which is destroyed during psychedelic trips, and thus the illusion that TheAppleCore is the center of everything is shattered.
 
"kundalini" DMT
^link

is kundalini, the key to if only in part, our bodies DMT, THC, Morphine etc?

i and many people, are fortunate enough to know this as fact, and have access when needed/wanted.

just saying, you can too.
____________________________________
it is very common, everyone goes through it,
and to be having it occur/"awaken"
with out knowing is not pleasant.

__________________
Sublime86
14-06-2009, 14:02
Does sound like kundalini to me. You can have these kind of experiences without any drugs too. The 'pain' in your forehead is actually the stimulation of what is know as the '3rd eye' in the etheric sense or in the physical body this would be the pituitary and pineal glands (Pineal gland produces DMT ;-) - Check out Dr Straussmans work).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISMgQtkRvEs - this short vid will tell you about the pineal gland a little more and it importance in ancient cultures.


The old yogic traditions explain what you guys are experiencing as something like this....

The are 7 energy centers located vertically along the spine at intervals starting at the base of the spine. 'Kundalini' is the name that has been given to an 'energy' that rises like a snake apparently up the spine activating these chakras each in turn. Kundalini is actually the old Sanskrit word for serpant.

The chakras are said to be spinning wheels of energy and they are responsible for the oscilating sound you are hearing.

Kundalini is actually a sexual energy.. so it is likely you guys were feeling slightly aroused at the time this was happening. Although this isnt neccessary and physical signs of arousal isnt neccessary either.

This energy has been called many things in many different cultures. Many independent cultures has recorded it in their history... Hindus call is Pranna, Chinese call it Chi or Qi. Greeks, Ancient Egyptians and Aboriginies have all noted it.

Swilow: the heat that is held in your stomach actually sounds like Yang Chi (there are 2 different kinds according to Taoist thought Ying Chi and Yang Chi - this is actually where the Yin/Yang symbol comes from)... is this area it is coming from about four fingers below your Navel? If it is then this is the 'dan tien' and is basically a storage place for Chi. It is strange that you have lots of it already there. Generally people build it up over years and years of meditation...... like this man - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkBKXhOzcvc&

I would be careful if I were you though... if this force/energy from you stomach chakra really is yang chi, and it is hot like you say. I have read that it is dangerous to bring it up to you brain and leave it there. So make sure you always bring the energy back to you dan tien when your done.

Its wicked you guys are awakening this part of yourselves. I have only had an experience like this once... and I wasnt high. I have been chasing it again ever since. Thats why I know all this stuff now....

I havnt tried most of the psychedelics you guys are talking about.. only mushies and salvia.. I'm not into anything too dangerous or anything like that. Fill me in on these other things plz.. what is 2c?


btw... first post, so hi all :)


Peace x
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trying to awaken for some-sort of recreational value, or with out a certified 'Kundalini Yoga Instructor', is not a good idea.

PAX
 
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In order to produce consciousness we would need to construct a vehicle which followed the underlying principle(s) that make up the instructions for the universe. If that was achieved & we could interface with it I think a consciousness may surface through the doorway we have provided for it.
I find it strange to think people believe that consciousness is simply a result or neuron activity - that's the processor.
We are machines yet we have consciousness. I'd wager all things - at least natural things - are conscious, however the presumption that they would be able to interface that consciousness with ours is ridiculous. It's fairly obvious a lizard is conscious yet how much do we know about how a lizard feels ? Not much & that's because we can't relate to it as well as we can say a mammal.
Consciousness is about being aware of how you feel sensing your own essence - that does not implicitly require that other natual forms need to in some way emulate our form of consciouness in order to prove themselves worthy of the title "conscious".
 
Bucklecroft Rudy said:
If the brain is like a radio ...

...reincarnation is highly highly likely.
Click to expand...

i dont get how you come up with that,
if we are receiving consciousness then we arent consciousness we are our bodies
so reincarnation makes no sense if our brain is only the receiver
if you cant broadcast yourself into someone else then you cant become someone else
and if you are consciousness then you are everybody and everything all at once but can only experience yourself subjectively by being only 1 person at a time living one moment at a time


if i play the big E string on my guitar the small E string will vibrate because they share a harmonic resonance, it aint called reincarnation but i think that the principle is similar
if you are in tune with something chances are that you are gonna vibrate or feel the vibe of that thing more than if you wouldnt be in tune with it
so if you are a E string of whatever size and die, your resonance might have being picked up by a smaller E string, not because it is you but because both of you where tuned in a similar way and what made you vibrate makes someone else vibrate in a similar fashion, and if your resonance comes from consciousness then someone else resonance might seem to come from you but really it comes from consciousness itself
and if you see yourself as consciousness then it is you, but then so is everything else




consciousness is the tip of the iceberg, most of the iceberg is under water, thats the unconscious and the ocean is the collective unconscious, the bridge between conscious and unconscious is the subconscious, thats the waving water line
(the iceberg and the ocean are made up of water)

imo we are conscious because of our ability to self reflect, which is to say we can recognize ourself in the mirror because what we see in the mirror is a replica of what we can create in our own mind
so that you can see your inner reflection from your mind (inner light reflection)
and the outer reflection from your body (light reflection)
you connect the two as being 1, as being you

light comes from energy, we gather energy in our body to fire up those neurons
memories and imagination are a light show within ourself
we came from water, water slows down light, we retain the light within ourself, we make time slow down with our minds, enough so that we can recognize ourself in the mirror
we record memories and we keep it in because of that ability to slow down light

consciousness come from that mirror effect imo
we self reflect our reflection into itself
its like how you end up with some kind of weird aura around you when you are in the middle of 2 mirror, and it seems like that reflection into itself has no end but if you move away from the mirrors your infinite reflection doesnt stay there, the mirrors gets empty
consciousness i think is just a weird feeling, a side effect from thinking in a loop
it aint inside ourself more then it is outside ourself
you need the outside to create the inside
and you need the inside to create the outside
so that consciousness is the bridge between the you inside of yourself (the mind)
and the you outside yourself (the body)
what connects your mind to your body is consciousness
your mind is a abstraction of your body the same way that your reflection in the mirror is a abstraction of you, because what you see is your body but what you also see is yourself, the you inside of you, and thats a abstraction, a abstraction of your body, its the concept of the self

and inside the self you can create a water mirrors where contrary to a normal mirror the light is slowed down so that the loop effect stays on even if you go away
your memories stays even if you look away
but if dying breaks those mirrors i dont see how reincarnation could happen

and to go back to the iceberg if death is turning ice back into water then we are all one as the ocean, but we cant see the ocean from the outside unless we pop our head out as the tip of the iceberg, which isolates us from the whole while still being part of it (on a more unconscious level)
does that means that we receive consciousness from the outside ? in some way it does because the tip of the iceberg is outside, but the only reason why its outside is because of the body popping it out, so the body generates the situation, the condition for it to happen
water is H2O while air is O2
ice floats because of the behavioral change between oxygen and hydrogen as temperatures drops (more hydrogen bonds)
so vapor goes up, ice goes up, liquid water goes down
its weird, water is weird, and humans are weird :)
so not only your body but the nature of what your body is made up generates the right condition for it to happen

so the iceberg is a metaphor but so is your body from the perspective of your mind
there is no real physical division between your body and your mind or between your mind and consciousness or between conscious, subconscious and unconscious
its all one and the same
but we create division for the sake of being able to create a language around it
 
Great insights here consciousness is distinct from the brain I believe simply because the neuronal gestalt shouldn't equal conciousness. The connections in the brain should only produce a machine. However that machine will never actually be conscious. I would describe consciousness as being an observer of one's own thoughts. The brain itself produces/receives thoughts but our consciousness allows us to be aware of those thoughts. Its magical really once you really think about it. I reckon it'll take centuries for us to unravel the mystery of the brain.
 
^

i feel the same way, that among numerous distinct separate 'vehicles' that make us up, the Brain/Mind is distinctly different from Consciousness, and these both are separate from the Ego.


but to Consciousness, Mind is a carrier/medium. this is what begins to define a 'conscious mind', not a driving mechanism. seems ones Soul Urges, Talents and unique abilities, Personality, The Soul or Spirit is expressed through our conscious-self, and our soul will register a Synestry/Harmonize with others, as ninjaDan pointed out. our intellect/Mind could careless about synergy besides to full-fill any ego-drive, as a survival mechanism.

.....
why have an awareness of this?

to relate as an individual to your own divine-source of being, is to be yourself and fullfill the souls-urges allowing the mind and intellect, latent talents and abilities to be realized, that really cant be in a conducive manner any other way.

yes many of us are fortunate enough to have talents and passions we are able to utilize and express, but, there is more.



<3
;)
 
Why are we all so certain that conciousness isn't machinelike? Especially when we're not even sure what consciousness is, or even whether it is at all?

"I think the perspective that consciousness is "generated" or "received" by the brain is absurd. That would imply that consciousness is distinct from, and something OTHER than, your nervous system. I think that your consciousness IS simply the electrical impulses hopping across the neural synapses of your brain. "

Well, in some sense imagining worlds of data or simulated universes to be represented by bits in computer memory is also absurd if the only perspective you have is the bits themselves or the rough architecture of the representational system as well.
But they are the same thing, at different levels of description.
And a human brain is orders of magnitude more complicated than modern computers.

I'll leave the rest of this analogy up to y'all :)

chinup: I think you're on the right track! Strange loops be all up in this bitch.
This sentence is false.
 
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