Recommended dose of Ketamine (S+) isomer?

[ninjapirateroberts]

I plan to try Ketamine for the first time, but I want to know the recommended starting dose. I've done some research, and many sources report "light index" between 10mg - 30mg and "common index" between 30mg - 75mg.

The thing is my Ketamine would be pure (S+) isomer of Ketamine and from what I have read, it is more potent than (R-) isomer and racemic (S+)-(R-) Ketamine. Many sources say that the (S+) isomer is about 3 or 4 times more potent (about 3 or 4 times greater affinity to NMDA receptor sites than (R-) isomer).

I remember reading some time ago that pure (S+) isomer is about twice as potent as a racemic Ketamine in particular (so 2:1 ratio). So since the light index of Katamine is about 10mg - 30mg (I believe this dose is for racemic since I think racemic Ketamine is used clinically), is it safer to take 10mg of (S+) Ketamine? It's my first time and I don't think I have taken any drug that has cross-tolerance with Ketamine (I only take benzos, methamphetamine, and methylphenidate but in therapeutic doses). I wouldn't not be taking benzos or stimulants until Ketamine offsets.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Ket hits almost instantly when snorted. This makes it easy to titrate to the desired effects, just start with 10mg and redose if needed or wanted.

Yeah, S-ketamine is said to be stronger than the racemate but I think it's less than 2x the potency. 10mg will be a threshold dosage anyways but these can be very nice, and it's good to start low.

Enjoy!

 

[G_Chem]

IMO if anything it’s more than 2x. Definitely at least 2x from my experience. As you said plumbus, it’s quick action makes finding the sweet spot rather easy.

They’re also very different in effects. Which makes an apples to apples comparison hard.

-GC

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

IMO if anything it’s more than 2x. Definitely at least 2x from my experience. As you said plumbus, it’s quick action makes finding the sweet spot rather easy.

They’re also very different in effects. Which makes an apples to apples comparison hard.

-GC

My main purpose would be sedation and help with depression and pain. At least that's what appealed to me, so I'd have to find the right doses for those purposes. I think it's also safe with my active stimulant use (much safer than taking antidepressants due to serotonin syndrome, or consistent benzo use) since I was diagnosed with ADHD and autism spectrum disorder last week so I would need stimulants my whole life.

 

[G_Chem]

My main purpose would be sedation and help with depression and pain. At least that's what appealed to me, so I'd have to find the right doses for those purposes. I think it's also safe with my active stimulant use (much safer than taking antidepressants due to serotonin syndrome, or consistent benzo use) since I was diagnosed with ADHD and autism spectrum disorder last week so I would need stimulants my whole life.

Well S-K is your best option for that. Racemic is much more stimulating, I find it hard to sleep after a bump. S-K and I’m out like a light. It also has a better depression lifting afterglow.

-GC

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Without tolerance I found 100 – 125mg of pure S isomer to get me where I would need 150 – 175mg of racemic of same purity. Snorted….

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

Okay I tried (S+) Ketamine today.
First time (morning), I snorted about 12mg and felt a little buzz after 5 minutes (but nothing substantial). So I took another bump of 15mg after 20 minutes, and now I could feel some sedation. I was decently sedated for about an hour (I felt buzzed, dizzy, felt like floating, and anxiety's gone). Effects worn off after about an hour.

Later in the evening, around 8 PM, I snorted a line of 20mg and felt nice sedation for about an hour. The peak and come-down were VERY smooth. Helps with sedation, acute depression and pain.

I guess ketamine definitely has promising potential if used in moderation. But is it safer when it comes to physical dependence compared to benzodiazepines? I primarily use benzodiazepines for (1) sedation and (2) when I'm having an anxiety or panic attack.

Do you guys think ketamine would be a better option (and safer with moderate use) for sedation than benzodiazepines? But benzos last longer, at least for 3-4 hours, and I use them for short-term (2-3 weeks at max) for stimulant-induced insomnia when I'm getting used to my ADHD medication (and infrequently if I have trouble sleeping).

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Might be if you are strong enough to keep the dose at 20mg max whole time using it. It’s “only” 210mg over 3 weeks and that’s less than many people use in a night. But is it worse or healthier or more beneficial to spread that dose over weeks or use it in a day but only few weeks is question far from answered, and probably at least partly depends on individual. I would rather use a lot but on rare occasion instead minuscule amounts daily, but that’s just my preference and honestly I never tried and don’t think I could even sustain using 20mg daily.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

Might be if you are strong enough to keep the dose at 20mg max whole time using it. It’s “only” 210mg over 3 weeks and that’s less than many people use in a night. But is it worse or healthier or more beneficial to spread that dose over weeks or use it in a day but only few weeks is question far from answered, and probably at least partly depends on individual. I would rather use a lot but on rare occasion instead minuscule amounts daily, but that’s just my preference and honestly I never tried and don’t think I could even sustain using 20mg daily.

I think a single 20mg bump gives me a nice sedation state for about an hour. Not definitely not enough to put me to sleep (I take 2-3 25mg bumps, so I spread it throughout the day). I tried to sleep with a 25mg bump today and I felt so relaxed and trance-like state on the bed but I eventually became awake after an hour (when K wears off, I’m back to where I started). Short half-life is my only complaint.

 

[SpiralusSancti]

Well K is more known to cause insomnia rather than being a good sleep aid.

Tho, I know person who used K for sleep for years. Weed than I.M. dose of K followed with diazepam. With tr depression he found it beneficial but she’s one of lucky ones who doesn’t really experience some potentially horrible sides of K, last I heard at least it was still like that….

 

[G_Chem]

Okay I tried (S+) Ketamine today.
First time (morning), I snorted about 12mg and felt a little buzz after 5 minutes (but nothing substantial). So I took another bump of 15mg after 20 minutes, and now I could feel some sedation. I was decently sedated for about an hour (I felt buzzed, dizzy, felt like floating, and anxiety's gone). Effects worn off after about an hour.

Later in the evening, around 8 PM, I snorted a line of 20mg and felt nice sedation for about an hour. The peak and come-down were VERY smooth. Helps with sedation, acute depression and pain.

I guess ketamine definitely has promising potential if used in moderation. But is it safer when it comes to physical dependence compared to benzodiazepines? I primarily use benzodiazepines for (1) sedation and (2) when I'm having an anxiety or panic attack.

Do you guys think ketamine would be a better option (and safer with moderate use) for sedation than benzodiazepines? But benzos last longer, at least for 3-4 hours, and I use them for short-term (2-3 weeks at max) for stimulant-induced insomnia when I'm getting used to my ADHD medication (and infrequently if I have trouble sleeping).

Good question. While both are addictive. It’s my personal opinion based on years of experience with both that ketamine is less problematic long term. Benzodiazepines can wreck your GABA system permanently. From a couple months use (not even every day) I still feel my gaba system isn’t right years later.

-GC

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

Okay, tonight I snorted 35-40mg S-K, and I leaned over my chair (in therapy chair position), closed my eyes, and listened to a PsyChill (1 hour) music. Man, it was the most relaxing experience I've ever had!

It helps a lot with my acute depression and stress. After messing around with multiple doses, I guess I found a sweet spot: 35-40mg S-K with PsyChill/Psybient music (1-hour set). I just closed my eyes, and it was the most relaxing experience. I guess I will do K on the weekends or whenever I get much stressed out on the weekdays. The addition of PsyChill makes the self-therapy a perfect combo. I know it only lasts for an hour, but hey, I like it anyway. That was a nice trip!

 

[G_Chem]

Okay, tonight I snorted 35-40mg S-K, and I leaned over my chair (in therapy chair position), closed my eyes, and listened to a PsyChill (1 hour) music. Man, it was the most relaxing experience I've ever had!

It helps a lot with my acute depression and stress. After messing around with multiple doses, I guess I found a sweet spot: 35-40mg S-K with PsyChill/Psybient music (1-hour set). I just closed my eyes, and it was the most relaxing experience. I guess I will do K on the weekends or whenever I get much stressed out on the weekdays. The addition of PsyChill makes the self-therapy a perfect combo. I know it only lasts for an hour, but hey, I like it anyway. That was a nice trip!

Appreciate the follow up man

All I’ll say is be careful, it can be very easy to make exactly what you speak of a routine that’s hard to stop. I’m experiencing it right now and trying to break the cycle. For the past few years many weekends I’d use K for the antidepressant effects but it only lasts 3-5 days then I get a dip in mood that can make it easy to use next weekend. Etc..

This is why I recommend incorporating traditional psychedelics too for the neurogenesis. K matures neurons quickly but doesn’t induce neurogenesis, the psychedelics pick up the slack on the back end. That’s why the combo is such a powerful antidepressant. For me it’s usually K and DMT, sometimes K and LSD.

-GC

 

[SpiralusSancti]

What about whole spectre of stuff supposedly lowering potential NMDA antagonists brain damage with stuff like a weed or certain psyche meds or even a bit of ethanol etc… Is there any new insight about that?
I know even damage from normal doses of PCP is disputed but supposedly if it occurs there are many ways to minimize or prevent it as they supposedly help in animal experiments when dosed with NMDA antagonists that realiably do cause brain damage.

And what about bladder? Is it still inconclusive how to best avoid damage? Do you think that side effect of K and relatives is mainly dose dependent and opting out for more potent stuff (preferably researched at least to extent) is a better idea for those prone to binging on K or doing it often?

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

Appreciate the follow up man

All I’ll say is be careful, it can be very easy to make exactly what you speak of a routine that’s hard to stop. I’m experiencing it right now and trying to break the cycle. For the past few years many weekends I’d use K for the antidepressant effects but it only lasts 3-5 days then I get a dip in mood that can make it easy to use next weekend. Etc..

This is why I recommend incorporating traditional psychedelics too for the neurogenesis. K matures neurons quickly but doesn’t induce neurogenesis, the psychedelics pick up the slack on the back end. That’s why the combo is such a powerful antidepressant. For me it’s usually K and DMT, sometimes K and LSD.

-GC

I've neither tried LSD nor DMT. But I really wanted to try LSD for years, but I couldn't find a reliable domestic vendor. (I could only find one vendor for mushrooms but no one for LSD). I'm planning to get some from the Netherlands. Will post on the LSD form when I finally get to try it.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

What about whole spectre of stuff supposedly lowering potential NMDA antagonists brain damage with stuff like a weed or certain psyche meds or even a bit of ethanol etc… Is there any new insight about that?
I know even damage from normal doses of PCP is disputed but supposedly if it occurs there are many ways to minimize or prevent it as they supposedly help in animal experiments when dosed with NMDA antagonists that realiably do cause brain damage.

And what about bladder? Is it still inconclusive how to best avoid damage? Do you think that side effect of K and relatives is mainly dose dependent and opting out for more potent stuff (preferably researched at least to extent) is a better idea for those prone to binging on K or doing it often?

I think abusing K in larger doses will fuck up one's bladder. I remember this thread: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/why-you-shouldnt-abuse-ketamine-nsfw-photos.895520/

 

[G_Chem]

I think abusing K in larger doses will fuck up one's bladder. I remember this thread: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/why-you-shouldnt-abuse-ketamine-nsfw-photos.895520/

I actually have experienced problems from very light use compared to most. When I use K it’s usually 10-20mg and usually only a single bump yet I’ve experienced K cramps, increased frequency and all the other symptoms.

I think there’s a genetic component to it that some of us just can’t handle it. I’ve also abused myself with other drugs too which could’ve had an effect on my system. Hard to fully say, but I notice after every use my bladder is hurting for awhile after. Usually increased frequency but a couple batches have given actual pain.

-GC

 

[SpiralusSancti]

I think abusing K in larger doses will fuck up one's bladder. I remember this thread: https://bluelight.org/xf/threads/why-you-shouldnt-abuse-ketamine-nsfw-photos.895520/

That’s for sure but what I’m wondering when I decide to get some NMDA antagonist if going for some more potent and/or longer lasting K relative and therefore using tens instead hundred milligrams per session or few milligrams instead tens of milligrams is a relatively certain way to prevent balder damage or I should be seriously worried if some potent arylciklohexylamines could do same damage with let’s say 1g over few months as much bigger amount of K.

Exactly one of reasons why MXE was created so that it keeps most/all/more of good sides that K has while requiring a significantly lower dose.

And as much as I like idea that more potent (less waste metabolites, usually less work for liver etc) means safer drugs in general (disregarding higher chance of OD if used stupidly), reality is that all the way from nanogram to multi gram range we find examples of very toxic/otherwise dangerous drugs and very safe/beneficial drugs and medicine. And sometimes even smilingly similar drugs, be it in action or design give vastly different results upon tweaking them to make them more/less potent by weight for whatever reason.

And in a RC world, with some substances we wont really find out what’s true. I like example of 2c-b that I hardly consider an RC; we can only broadly assume is it bk-2c-b (less potent than parent compound) or is 2c-b-fly (more potent than parent compound) safer/less safe/same as 2c-b. And further we go in either direction it’s even harder to speculate what’s safer/better as tiny variations can result in vastly more toxic/safer compound and in other cases big changes don’t really affect therapeutic index and other parameters of interest for people using substances in question.