Random chemical reaction or God given gift…..

e_rep

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 3, 1999
Messages
649
While “attempting debate” I was wondering if people out there think MDMA and its chemical relatives are just some random substances that trigger occurrences in the brain, or is the drug put here for a reason?
My thoughts would be that it is here for a reason. While some may say man through chemistry creates it, I say it was “discovered” by man through chemistry. Without going to much into my views,(I’d rather hear someone who disagrees then debate) what do you think?
PS: No offence to any atheists out there. Without me knowing whether atheists believe in higher power, not necessarily God or a God, we could just ask, do you think the drug holds spiritual significance?
 
i'm up for a little joust!!!!
the gauntlet has been thrown down
wink.gif

i believe that mdma was merely stumbled upon, not even "discovered through chemistry." merck was trying to synthesize another drug and mdma was produced by accident. they patented it out of policy, not even out of potential for use.
as for the whole spiritual "put here for a reason" i would like to hear how you would support that, but for now (in the spirit of internet flaming
smile.gif
) i'll just dismiss the whole notion out of hand as "comforting quasi-spiritual pablum for a species desperate for signs of a benevolent higher power".
round 2???????????????
------------------
And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started
/And to know the place for the first time.
-T.S. Eliot
"In the war on drugs, I'm a conscientious objector" -- brand-x
 
i believe that the desire to intoxicate ones self is a drive, right up there along with sex and hunger. our brains have several receptors that are there for substances (drugs) to be 'plugged' into, revealing altered states of consciousness. IMHO, these altered states are critical for the advancement of human thought, which in turn, are critical for the advancement of human kind in general.
i don't think i would go so far as to say that MDMA (or any other drug for that matter) was put here by a higher power. there are therapeutic drugs that can alter our emotions and thoughts. these were brought about not by accident, but by a thorough understanding of neurobiology. humans studied the brain, found receptors and developed substances that would produce the desired result.
i guess in summary, i agree that it is natural for our brains to have the ability to be altered, but the mere existence of substances that accomplish this does not necessarily prove that they were placed there by a higher power.
 
I don't think *any* drug has true spiritual significance; this goes for such religiously sanctioned drugs like peyote and fly agaric as well. However, I think psychedelic drugs can give one a different perspective on the world and themselves, for better or worse.
I doubt MDMA has a God-given place for a few other reasons. The drug is semi-synthetic,
which means that we have yet to find an MDMA tree in the forest. With cannabis and shrooms, at least one can say that they were here first. Of course, with those and other plants, one can counter that their hallucinogenic properties evolved to keep them from getting eaten in the first place. But I digress...
Second, there are other drugs out there with effects very similar to MDMA, and who's to say they won't find another compound in the future with identical effects? Can they all have spiritual significance, or not? Maybe
MDMA is just a limited "flavor" of something much bigger.
Third, it can't be denied that MDMA, like every other drug, manipulates your bodily chemistry, and through it your brain. There are other natural events that influence your biochemistry, like being in love, but they are internal, not administered. The MDMA experience exaggerates your emotions and sensations;
the experience is inherently a distortion of reality. It isn't "natural". If MDMA and other drugs are pathways to enlightenment, or have spiritual significance, then it effectively means that most humans are spiritually retarded barbarians, until we take these things and see the "real" picture,
a disturbing prospect. Fortunately, it's impossible to prove.
Finally, we can take the spiritual argument in exactly the opposite direction. What if MDMA is not a tool for enlightenment at all, but a tool for deception, a red herring meant to draw us off the beaten path. What if the drug was "put here" to mess with our minds, to show us an illusory path to enlightenment, while it frys our brains in meantime. The drug could be the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing--peace and love on the outside, but on the inside...
This concept isn't as far-fetched as it sounds, especially given the evidence that MDMA causes brain damage. The case for MDMA being a tool for destruction can be made even stronger than the case for enlightenment.
People quick to jump on MDMA as a pathway for spiritual growth often forget that.
However, I won't rule out the possibility that MDMA may indeed be here for our enlightenment. There's no proof that it isn't, philosophically speaking. However, I think a healthy "dose" of skepticism can keep us all a little more grounded.
 
I will post on only one particular statement that Belisarius made, since the rest of his/her (sorry, I don't know your gender, nor does it really matter, I guess) argument parallels my own views.
I don't believe that anything is synthetic. Man is a product of nature, thereby anything created by man is still natural. Everything we create is only an altered form of something already present is nature(where else would we get the original materials?). Just because nature didn't form it that way on this planet does not exclude the phenomenon from occuring "naturally" elsewhere.
Think of it in this context: other than procreation, cows do little more than eat. As they consume vegetable matter and through the course of digestion, they produce methane and excrement, as well as mucus and other secretions.
Now, let's take a look at mankind. We must expand our view to see human society for what it is: a natural construct...nearly a communal organism made up of individuals. You can view plastics and styrofoam as either excreted or secreted material from our societal whole. To quote George Carlin (loosely), "maybe Earth wanted plastic, but didn't know how to make it. That's why it created us...to make plastic. We've helped to create a new paradigm: the Earth...plus plastic."
I know that many out there probably won't agree with this, but really it's just a matter of semantics. I just tend to view mankind as another animal (therefore "man-made" doesn't exclude natural) while many others view mankind as a separate entity from the other animals...
I'm gotta cut this argument short 'cause I gotta hungry grrlfriend and food ain't waiting any longer!
smile.gif

Talk to you guys soon...
 
MDMA was put on this Earth so grown men and women could still gnaw on binkys.
------------------
Brock
"My reality check bounced."
 
Yes, here we go.
brand-x, I need to know what religion you are. Do you believe in a higher power that created the heaven and the earth? Because if you do, your post insinuates that the creator was unaware of MDMA when this Geneses took place. As if God were sitting in heaven saying, “damn, I didn’t know that. Those humans are smarter than I thought”.
Barndog, I agree 100% with your last sentence of your first paragraph. It is a large part of the basis for my view. But in your second you question whether it would be placed here by a higher power. I think that if there is something that is crucial to our advancement then the possibility of it being here for a reason only increases. Is the fact that we breath oxygen and release CO2, and trees breath CO2 and release oxygen a random thing, or is it part of a natural order? An order that is critical to our existence, and possibly created by a higher power.
There are therapeutic drugs that can alter our emotions and thoughts. These were brought about not by accident, but by a thorough understanding of neurobiology. Humans studied the brain, found receptors and developed substances that would produce the desired result.
I’m sure somewhere along the way, trial and error came into play when discovering these things. And penicillin, one of the most if not the most widely used medicine, was found on accident. But all in all, I think the therapeutic drugs you speak of lack the magic of MDMA.
Belisarius, I'm working on it.
Brock, that was my second guess.
smile.gif
Well, looks like this conversations over. The truth is known. *shqueak**shqueak**shqueak*
(sounds of e_rep walking away sucking on a binky)
 
God gave us intellect and free will (not to be confused with free willy) to do with it what we want. Kinda sucks that both get us into the most trouble.
 
Very cool thread I must....I believe that God(I do believe in God...lol) gave us all of the necessary tools to further ourselves SPIRITUALLY. I also believe that is ALL important, to at least try, to be perfect spiritually. And by "perfect" I mean what ever YOU feel is perfect in Gods eyes. I also think reality is reality no matter which way you look at it. There is no distortion, only how you percieve reality. And if you percieve using E as non-reality maybe you should re-evaluate, cuz it is reality. There is no non-reality. Evyting is real in this life. Your perception may be a lil screwy, but, w/ out screwy perceptions where would music and art and the like be today. Just like somebody said in an earlier post we need these "off-the-wall" ways of thinking to further ourselves as a self conscious race of beings. E and dancing and feeling together w/ evyone is definitely spiritual. I think everyone will agree that E is very spiritual, and can in fact, improve your spiritual outlook on many things. He may not have "put MDMA in place" per say, but, he did give us the necessary tools to create it right? I mean, we ARE Gods workers right, sorta like co-creators. And just cuz it was stumbled upon doesn't mean it doesn't have any significance in the "whole picture". I don't care what any one says, E produces feelings/emotions/thoughts that are impossible to attain other than actually taking E. Maybe God said "whoa, whoa, whoa...WTF r they doing down there? Ok time for a little "fix"' Maybe he saw what we were becoming and said 'that's quite enuf'. We will never know....
Heres a lil story about our BIG friends: the Elephants.....true too. There were a herd of Elephants that would sometimes "raid" a small village in Africa somewhere (sorry about the vagueness). Well, these tribes people made there own alcohol by fermenting spit and fruits and stuff like that. One day one of the Elephants found this "jungle juice" and the herd got rocked...fucked up....drunk....whatever. From then on everytime the village was raided by the herd, the hut where the juice was stored got visited first. I guess I am trying to say that not only humans desire entoxication, but animals as well. And if drugs are evil and bad well not only humans will get a "talking to" about it.
And to add on to Brocks statement about God giving us free will and intellect, he has also decided to let that be, and He will NOT interfere in any way w/ our free will. That is for all the people who think there is no God cuz He lets all of this "bad" stuff happen to us and the planet. Only you can prevent forest fires, only you. lol God gives us strength and the power to change and evolve into what we will evolve into through our decisions we make evyday.
LATER!
PLUR!
stepper69
 
How about the arrival of MDMA as a self-regulating Gaian feedback response to the insanity of the late 20th century?
Or how about MDMA as a lesson II to the Aquarian generations? It seems that LSD broke the mental mold as only acid can, and our culture has progressed/suffered accordingly. Everything is more trippy. Casually strolls MDMA in this vaccuum as a user-friendly, pro-social, violence-inhibiting love drug to give us some social cohesion, some direction.
Of course MDMA is a means, not an end, and if we are to make use out of the realizations and changes made. Maybe a new drug will become popular (perhaps Nexus, or 2 C-B) and give our culture a new detour.
In any case, MDMA holds pretty fun, easy lessons, and it really is a good building block on a social, personal, and spiritual level. It has a built-in mechanism for abuse prevention, is hardly lethaly toxic, and is a very good choice for first-timers. The social setting that an ecstasy-dominated party demands is a good one for other psychedelic explorations as well.
But in terms of depth of experience it eventually becomes shallow, and it's far from being an impossible challange to reach the same heights with a couple glasses of wine or a little g.
So, what will be the choices of the masses of users that hit this wall? Will they give it up for something else? Will they increase their dosages, hoping for that elusive high? Will they turn to spiritual traditions? WIll they turn their backs on the whole culture and revert back to yuppie cubicle automatons?
Time will tell.
 
oh, OH, OH, my turn again!!
thus begins round deux,
e-rep, my post wasn't insinuating that "god" was not aware of what humans had created. i was stating flat out that the scientists at merck were not trying to synthesize mdma, it occurred as a by-product of the synthesis of another compound and they simply patented it becuse it was company policy to do so.
this is a fact and anyone who doubts it can go to www.maps.org and read details of the interview with a merck representative who confirmed the story.
as for your question about my religious affiliation, i have none. i do believe in a "higher power" if you want to call it that, but i think that as a human being i am incapable of fully comprehending the magnitude of this power. basically, i guess you could say that i believe that "god" is the sum of existence. we can't understand "god" because there is so much of our universe that we have yet to explore. furthermore, even if we were to visit/explore/see every part of the universe and understand every single part, that enormous body of knowledge/enlightenment would simply be too massive for any one human to "know."
so, basically, i think "god" is all around us, but we will never get to the point where we can say we truly understand "god."
i think most people get so caught up in the pursuit of "god" through traditional methods that they miss the little pieces of "him/her/it" in their everyday lives.
so, back to what you were saying, the idea that "god" could be an entity which has consciousness in the human sense of the word (only magnified of course
smile.gif
) is something that i find a little simplistic. it's the fox kids version of spirituality tthat too many people rely upon to explain a universe that is too infinitely wondrous for our comprehension. and the idea that "god" would "place" mdma at our fingertips at a given time in order to guide humankind on a predetermined course sounds a whole lot like wishful thinking that i disagree with, but that benefits from being impossible to disprove.
let me know what you think.....round three???
------------------
And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started
/And to know the place for the first time.
-T.S. Eliot
"In the war on drugs, I'm a conscientious objector" -- brand-x
 
I must admit that this is a very interesting thread!
however, here are a few of my views.
It is my opinion, that people make entirely too much of the whole e expience. In my expierience it is a hollow, and empty high, that discuises itself as empathy, and friendlyness. But alot of people seem to think that it brings them closer with thier friends, and whatever "god" they bleieve in.
Unfortunately I am of the addage that this is (in a way) a dilusion. The feelings, and emotions braught on by XTC are in fact, just that. they are produced (largely) by a rush of seratonin (sp) through the brain. Now, it doesn't much matter to me if you believe in god, or buddah, or nothing at all, but the XTC expierence often feels very "spiritual".
XTC only serves to amplify feelings that already exist, conciously, or otherwise.
what I'm saying is, if you believe in some spiritual belief, if that enters at all into your rush, then it will serve to re-enforce these beliefs. Or, it can bring out some subconcious belief system, or thoughts.
I personaly don't believe in a "god" persay... and it's hard for me to say what I do believe in, because in so many ways, I don't know.
However, I don't think that when yer totaly fuct on e is either the time, or the place to start to think about it.
I understand that what you feel on E oftentimes feels very real. but at the same time, I think it is important to realize that oftentimes it is not.
In my opinion, I think that the yogi's of ancient India had it fairly correct when they said that the universie isn't governed by "cause and effect" but it in fact, not governed at all.
I personaly doubt that whatever forces have their effects on our reality, percieved or otherwise, (provided any of such forces exist) would have it in mind to "think" of EVERY possible chemical combination, and "determine" some sort of effect for each.
Further, the anphetamine family is HUGE.. it encompasses a HUGE number of stimulants, and various other drugs, and substances. Many of them having similar effects. To chose just ONE of them (or a small family of them like the MDMA line of them) and single them out as "god given" is absolutely ludicrist.
To justify e's existance by saying it was part of some grand "godly" scheme is to say that absolutely every tiny detail of our existance was pre-determined. I know this is a bit of a broad, sweeping generalization, but it is, in many ways, a logical concluson.
 
what about round three????
have we forgotten this thread???
where is e-rep?????
*raises clenched fists to sky charleton heston style*
there is no goooddddd!!!!!!!
------------------
And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started
/And to know the place for the first time.
-T.S. Eliot
"In the war on drugs, I'm a conscientious objector" -- brand-x
 
Ding Ding Ding. Round 3 in a fight built on speculation. We could be here for a while. J
Brand-x, thank you for the challenge and forgive my tardiness. I must say, when I started posting on the net, my energy ran wild and I couldn’t wait to respond to such a debate. But as time has told, I have to gather up the impetus to do so. (impetus, best clutch song)
Well, when I had first started doing E, I went though one hell of a time. A time that I almost didn’t make it through, and I have the scars to prove it. I was one of the people who didn’t “know”. I thought everything I saw on TV was right and all my parents taught me was golden. I had used Acid and pot like crazy, but they only left me with questions still. Then I took E. Within a few months period, everything I had learned was conflicting with everything I was learning for myself. I went through a terrific depression with led me to having myself committed. I can’t get that far into detail cause it would take all night, but in that time, at age 21-22 I was ready to put on a robe and speak the word of the lord, whom I felt was talking directly to me. Don’t worry, I’m not crazy like I was then. But one of the things that bewildered me was this. I had decided that I was going to read the Bible. Not letting some priest guide my view, I would gain my own interpretation. So with all these revelations the drug was bringing me, and I was fully aware the drug was causing this, I read.
Genesis III, King James version, the Holy Bible.
3:1
Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
3:2
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Wait a minute. A substance that a human can digest, and it will make you wise? A thing to outline in your head what is good and what is evil?
3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
3:7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Their eyes were opened. Have you ever look at your eyes in the mirror while under the influence? Quite opened I assure you.
3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
3:9
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
3:10
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
3:11
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Now they didn’t die as God had said, not in the conventional manner. But who they were before, dead is the word. Just as Neo in the Matrix, you can’t go back once you “know”.
3:12
And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
3:13
And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
3:14
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Side note. Whenever having a debate with a women over what sex is superior (which I do believe it’s equal, not by face value, but between the lines), I find out if they believe in the Bible, and if they do, I hit them with the “and he shall rule over thee”. hehehe
3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Once again, you can never go back.
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;
Ignorance is bliss, right? I don’t believe that last phase is punishment for what he has done, but more so result of the action.
and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ok. Shall return to the ground? Was he high that he needs to return to the ground?
3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
3:21
Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
From what I hear, aging is a symptom of a gene in our cells. If that symptom could be cured(if that’s what you want to call it) we would not age, and the tree of life could be a scientific aspect. As a knowledge of good and evil could come in a seretonin rush. (speculation, I know)
3:23
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
As per Terrence Mckenna(sp?), the flaming sword is a dessert. I’ve have no further knowledge of his beliefs.
Now all in all, I don’t expect anyone to agree with what I’m saying, though some do. I realize it is “crazy”. And of course before something is crazy, normal would have to be defined. I am just sharing thoughts that I have had in the past, and explaining my view.
More to come, e_rep.
And thanks all for responding.
------------------
Forever is in the visuals.
 
PaRaDoX,
It is my opinion, that people make entirely too much of the whole e expience. In my expierience it is a hollow, and empty high, that discuises itself as empathy, and friendlyness. But alot of people seem to think that it brings them closer with thier friends, and whatever "god" they bleieve in.
See, this is where I disagree. There is no disguise here. It is a proven fact that E gives users a higher sense of empathy and it does, straight out, make you happier(depending on setting and such). The reason I feel it is not hollow and empty, is that I do realize that it is not how I normally feel and where it brings me is not the place where people live. But the thing is, once you go there, you know it's there. Before hand, I was never so open minded as I am now, and I was never so friendly. So you got this person, who is a good person, but doesn't open up that much. All his freinds say, come on loosen up, yadayadayada, but you can't make someone do this. Then they take a pill. In an instant when it hits, they are loosened up. They realize that they can be that friendly. They can be that open minded. This may have never had happened without it. Of course the effects wair off and you return to your normal self, with only the experience as a memory. And in that memory, you hold a piece of what could be.
 
E-rep:
I must say, that was a bit harsh of me... and it's not ENTIRELY what I meant...
I know that for me, I feel the same way that you do. I bring something back with me...
I must admit, I have changed my bitter little tune as of late.
there are just so many people who go out and do e, and that's it. They get fucked up, and it's wonderful... the end.
it seemed to me that these people were in the majority, until I "got to know" some more people off of the board....
I made this post when I was fairly new to you all, (I think?) and I have since been, almost, re-born to the whole rave scene/e experience. I am pretty old skool in my local scene... I had become biter, and jaded about everything.
but the vast majority of that post still holds... well... maybe SOME of it anywyas...
------------------
"Like a shooting star,
Accross the midnight sky!"
-BANG!
PaRaDoX -and PLUR for all!
 
well, believe it or not i don't have much to say.
i know, i know it's a first
smile.gif

well, maybe i'll just say one thing. i think the bible is a great book. every once in a while someone will come up with a verse or two from the bible that just blows my mind. since i didn't grow up in a religious environment i'll always have to come home and check it out to make sure that they aren't just making it up. every single time i do i end up reading more than i had planned to. the bible is just so rich, there's so much stuff to think about.
it kind of makes me think of those zen buddhist riddles that are designed to occupy your mind in such a way that you proceed down the path to enlightenment on your own. if you ask me that is what the bible is for; something to make you ask the right questions so that you can start finding the answers in your own experience. no answers, just questions.
maybe i'm stirring up a hornets nest here (and in a post where i said i didn't have much to say
smile.gif
), but i think the bible and other religious texts just hold some good questions, not really the answers to those questions. any lasting faith that is not born of ignorance comes from using these religious texts as an initial step on the proverbial journey of a thousand miles.
well, i'm finished
smile.gif

ps. i think my signature kinda fits in with what i was saying
------------------
And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started
/And to know the place for the first time.
-T.S. Eliot
"In the war on drugs, I'm a conscientious objector" -- brand-x
 
e-rep
well, believe it or not, I happen to be realy up on the east indian yogis, and the chineese buddists...
The realy interesting thing about those "questions" (I can't rememer what they are called...) is actualy meditating on them, and (after a LONG time) comming up with an answer that makes so little sence, but at the same time has to be absolutely correct... and as such leads you to other questions, that you had never even concidered before.
I do agree with you, that religous text provide questions which one must answer for themselves, but so many of the followers of said religions have, in fact forgotten this. And assume that what this book actualy contains is the ANSWERS. This generates problems...
and to swing this back onto the topic at hand, I think that this question (the thread) is one that everyone must answer for themselves. It's at the heart of the entire experience, the heart of your very existance. To ask such a simple question "did god create e?" or "did god create e for us to use inthis way?" in fact raises so many millions of other integral philosophical questions.
This not only raises the topic of belief systems, but it in fact starts to peel off the layers of the person who choses to answer the question. this question does so much more than just answer a (relatively) simple problem.
I think that every question that can be asked, on any subject, or topic, in a way, can be, and is one of those "buddist questions". Reality, or at least our perception of it, has many layers... so many people refuse to look below the surface. or even, to concider anything other than the question directly posed to them...
take for example:
"can you go to the store and buy a quart of milk?"
(no, I'm not high)
sure it sounds a little silly... but... can you? realy? and exactly what is a quart? and milk? what do you mean by that? my reality, as described by the language I speak defines these things. On a deeper level, a simple question like this can raise the question "Do I even realy exist" but further to that... does it even matter weather or not you exist? you PERCEIVE that you exist, therefore it is so... which makes the question completely irrelevant...
I have no idea where I am headed with this... and I guess it doesn't realy matter. or does it?
------------------
"Like a shooting star,
Accross the midnight sky!"
-BANG!
PaRaDoX -and PLUR for all!
 
PaRaDoX(and everybody), thanks for taking the time to give educated and thought out posts. This shit does take time and energy.
And oh, hehe, you responded to brand-x, not e_rep. Milk anyone?
smile.gif
 
Top