Benzos Questions for valium users, regarding tapers, especially large doses

[3dmusic]

Hello, I have some questions, please, for valium users, or other benzos/research benzos with half lives of around 200hrs
This post does not really apply to users of other benzodiazepines, due to the long time interval between cutting doses and showing of symptoms, particular to valium, and other, very-long-half-life benzos, I would really appreciate as many people's experiences as possible please.

People find it hard or impossible to believe, but every time I take a dose reduction in diazepam/valium, it takes 16-18 days for any symptoms to show up.
I've been addicted to diazepam before, but not at the huge dose I am on now, 70mg.
I used to be addicted to 15mg, ashton tapered until I could bare it no more at 3.5mg, then, started a daily cut, dissolving the benzo in milk and taking out a tiny amount with a syringe.
Symptoms faded as I did this, and I got to 0mg feeling no withdrawal symptoms.
Tapering the stepped way was just too painful for me in the end. I ended up taking opiates 2 - 3 times a week and did this for about five years. Ive started doing this again.
The opiate high is a bit too much for me, maybe just not my thing, but I take enough just to take the edge off, and often, as I am unwilling to up the opiate dose, some days the opiates I do take do nothing for me.
If I run out, its just a bad inconvenience as I don't get physical withdrawals, I've seen enough heroin users to know when someone is starting to cluck on opiates. (cluck, being the UK word for withdrawal)

Now, I am on 70mg valium, but on July 25th I cut my dose by 5mg, thinking that as I was on 75mg, thinking that 5mg would be no big deal, I was wrong.
I felt fine until about the 16th day, and the old familiar symptoms from my old benzo taper came back, diarrhoea, heightened anxiety, feeling pissed off about little things, vastly increaseed tearfulness etc.

1) I would like to know, please, from as many people as possible, especially those who have been on large doses, who have cut thier diazepam dose, how many days it takes between cutting their dose and feeling symptoms show?

2) It seemed to take longer for the symptoms to peak on the larger dose. Is this the case, or is dose quantity, and time before symptoms showing, not related?

I hope this question is in the right place, but, mods, feel free to move it if you feel it is not.

mnay thanks in advance

 

[speedballs_over]

a. The opioids are possibly having an effect we can't predict.

1. I started my current taper at 70-mg (crossover from clonazepam / clonazolam). I tend to feel my most recent drop around 8 days out, but my last drop from 24- to 22-mg/day I think it took about two weeks to really feel. Which... is right when I'll drop again! Frustrating I agree.

What are your symptoms? Mine are anxiety on waking (adrenal rushes), including "nap" anxiety if I take a nap. I get some rebound generalized anxiety, occasional sleep problems but strong medical indica strains of cannabis absolutely demolish most sleep problems. I also have transient, short episodes of tennitis (ringing in ear, high pitched sound like audio feedback) but it arrives and resolves quickly. I also have low energy and some mood swings, but those could be testosterone related, I have "low-T" from a long reliance on opioids, and I'm not currently using replacement therapy.

Check out Benzobuddies.org for others going through tapers, but be warned - most there are having serious problems and do not represent the vast majority of taper situations. I don't read it anymore b/c it just made me paranoid.

That you tapered before may cause this taper to be more difficult. I've tapered once previously, after a year at 4-mg/day clonazepam, that was 11 years ago. I went back on within a year, so I'm now tapering from a one year run (04-05), with a year off, then nine years of 3 - 4-mg/day clonazepam with the last year using 2-mg/day clonazolam on /off. I didn't take both benzos the same day that last year, it was either one or the other. So, this is a nine year dependency I'm trapering off.

I believe, but cannot prove that taking magnesium citrate 500-mg/day and a multivitamin (not magnesium oxide which is not well absorbed), has helped considerably.

2. I did have more withdrawal from 70- down to 50-mg than I do now, even with the cut being the same percentage of my dose, e.g. 50 to 45-mg vs. 22- to 20-mg, both 10% cuts, but for me the former was subjectively worse than the latter (most recent cut). So, yeah, I got that as well.

Hope that helps some. I'm doing an ashton taper at two week intervals. It's going 8.75/10 on a rating scale for discomfort, craving, etc... So, really not bad at all... yet. But I try not to worry about the next drop... I just do it, then forget about it until maybe eight, ten days later then I'll feel it slightly - the above symptoms.

Best.

 

[Mushwood]

Me, I got upto around 60mg diazepam daily, but also upto 8mg alprazolam which of course complicates it a little...


When I first went to the doc one time after I ran out he started me on 30mg diazepam. I'm not sure if he knew what alprazolam was or maybe he didn't hear me, or maybe he purposely gave me a dose nearly seven times less than what I'd been taking. I had already been withdrawing for a day or so tho so it was such a relief just to get the 30mg. Really that jump down to 30mg was relatively eventless, just massively depressing and anxiety inducing..


So then I was put on a taper which went down by 2mg every 4 weeks, so it took like 60 weeks. The only real symptoms I had were anxiety and depression, but it did really suck being dragged out for so long ..felt like my life was on hold. I didn't notice any change when I dropped the 2mg.


Of course me being a fuck up, I got right to the end of the taper then relapsed getting back to similar amounts quickly. Things got bad and luckily for me I was able to go into a rehab program..


Started on 160mg Librium but was quickly switched to diazepam, and went to zero in under 6 weeks... the taper scared me, the dose would basically half every four days or something, so it was like 160mg Librium for four days then 80mg diaz, then 40 etc.It wasn't pleasant - lots of anxiety, insomnia, some visual disturbances, feeling unreal, spasams in my back - but I was ok... and it worked! ...obviouslyit really helped having someone else controlling the dose, being kept busy and being somewhere safe...


I've tried tapering other times myself with diazepam, I would be able to get down to about 20mg reatively easily, but then lower than that and I would get really bad, like going absolutely insane, horrible delusions, borderline psychotic, seisures and all the rest. Probably coz I taper far to quick like 10mg every few days ...but I really wouldn't feel that much when dropping down a dose until I got to abot 20mg.

 

[3dmusic]

a. The opioids are possibly having an effect we can't predict.

1. I started my current taper at 70-mg (crossover from clonazepam / clonazolam). I tend to feel my most recent drop around 8 days out, but my last drop from 24- to 22-mg/day I think it took about two weeks to really feel. Which... is right when I'll drop again! Frustrating I agree.

What are your symptoms? Mine are anxiety on waking (adrenal rushes), including "nap" anxiety if I take a nap. I get some rebound generalized anxiety, occasional sleep problems but strong medical indica strains of cannabis absolutely demolish most sleep problems. I also have transient, short episodes of tennitis (ringing in ear, high pitched sound like audio feedback) but it arrives and resolves quickly. I also have low energy and some mood swings, but those could be testosterone related, I have "low-T" from a long reliance on opioids, and I'm not currently using replacement therapy.

Check out Benzobuddies.org for others going through tapers, but be warned - most there are having serious problems and do not represent the vast majority of taper situations. I don't read it anymore b/c it just made me paranoid.

That you tapered before may cause this taper to be more difficult. I've tapered once previously, after a year at 4-mg/day clonazepam, that was 11 years ago. I went back on within a year, so I'm now tapering from a one year run (04-05), with a year off, then nine years of 3 - 4-mg/day clonazepam with the last year using 2-mg/day clonazolam on /off. I didn't take both benzos the same day that last year, it was either one or the other. So, this is a nine year dependency I'm trapering off.

I believe, but cannot prove that taking magnesium citrate 500-mg/day and a multivitamin (not magnesium oxide which is not well absorbed), has helped considerably.

2. I did have more withdrawal from 70- down to 50-mg than I do now, even with the cut being the same percentage of my dose, e.g. 50 to 45-mg vs. 22- to 20-mg, both 10% cuts, but for me the former was subjectively worse than the latter (most recent cut). So, yeah, I got that as well.

Hope that helps some. I'm doing an ashton taper at two week intervals. It's going 8.75/10 on a rating scale for discomfort, craving, etc... So, really not bad at all... yet. But I try not to worry about the next drop... I just do it, then forget about it until maybe eight, ten days later then I'll feel it slightly - the above symptoms.

Best.

Thank you for your post.
My symptoms are constant diarrhoea as I am tapering pregabalin but have done that really slow, down from 600mg at xmas to 150mg today.
I have got anxiety, but I am not sure if that is pre existing anxiety. I tapered offf trazodone and seroquel in 2014 as they did no good for my anxiety and depression and I was on them about 5 years.
I know what you mean about 'nap' anxiety from my last taper, i would take a nap and wake up with loads of irrational worries.
I am a woman and did not know that low testosterone could be caused by opoids.
I agree about benzobuddies making people paranoid, but I already have really bad diarrhoea, and I am at 70mgs, considering going back upto 75mgs to see if that resolves the problem, as it's only been three weeks since I cut from 75mg to 70mg.
Magnesium citrate makes me go to the loo more, but magnesium malate works fine to get me back off to sleep.
I really apppreciate you sharing your experience with me.
thank you

 

[3dmusic]

Me, I got upto around 60mg diazepam daily, but also upto 8mg alprazolam which of course complicates it a little...


When I first went to the doc one time after I ran out he started me on 30mg diazepam. I'm not sure if he knew what alprazolam was or maybe he didn't hear me, or maybe he purposely gave me a dose nearly seven times less than what I'd been taking. I had already been withdrawing for a day or so tho so it was such a relief just to get the 30mg. Really that jump down to 30mg was relatively eventless, just massively depressing and anxiety inducing..


So then I was put on a taper which went down by 2mg every 4 weeks, so it took like 60 weeks. The only real symptoms I had were anxiety and depression, but it did really suck being dragged out for so long ..felt like my life was on hold. I didn't notice any change when I dropped the 2mg.


Of course me being a fuck up, I got right to the end of the taper then relapsed getting back to similar amounts quickly. Things got bad and luckily for me I was able to go into a rehab program..


Started on 160mg Librium but was quickly switched to diazepam, and went to zero in under 6 weeks... the taper scared me, the dose would basically half every four days or something, so it was like 160mg Librium for four days then 80mg diaz, then 40 etc.It wasn't pleasant - lots of anxiety, insomnia, some visual disturbances, feeling unreal, spasams in my back - but I was ok... and it worked! ...obviouslyit really helped having someone else controlling the dose, being kept busy and being somewhere safe...


I've tried tapering other times myself with diazepam, I would be able to get down to about 20mg reatively easily, but then lower than that and I would get really bad, like going absolutely insane, horrible delusions, borderline psychotic, seisures and all the rest. Probably coz I taper far to quick like 10mg every few days ...but I really wouldn't feel that much when dropping down a dose until I got to abot 20mg.

Hi Mushwood

Thank you for your post.
Were you taking the 60mg diazepam and 8mg alprazolam on the same day?
Hope you don't mind me asking, how long were you on this dose of benzos for?

Sorry the doc gave you much less than you needed.
Thank you for giving me the taper timescales.

As I have tried to cut the diarrhoea has got worse, and if i get weaker brands (unprescribed) it gets worse.
If I didn't take loperamide, I would need an incontinence pad, i already have a mattress protector.
Don't beat yourself up for relapsing, becausee, maybe you were tapered too quickly.
Sorry you had to have that ordeal regarding librium.

In my last taper, I did an ashton stepped taper down to 3.5mg, but could bare it no more, so I started tapering daily, small amounts dissolved in milk using a syringe, this way, the remaining symptoms faded and I was down to 0mg feeling no wd symptoms from the diazepam.
This meant that the last bit of my last taper was the easiest, as I was able to control it myself, and the daily micro cuts looked like a smooth curve if plotted on a graph.
Thank you or providing info on your experience.

 

[Mushwood]

Hi 3dmusic,

Yep I was taking around 60 diazepam and 8mg alprazolam every day. It wasn't prescribed and the daily dose would vary a little. I'd been taking benzos for about 10 years but started off with much smaller amounts and less frequently. I would say maybe for about 2 years I was on a dose around 60mg Diaz + 8mg Alpraz...

Now I don't take any benzos at all, it took me years to get off them. I never really needed them in the first place though so I knew I should be able to stop them completely, although now I'm more anxious than I was before I ever took them...

Wow, getting such bad symptoms just from cutting down 5mg doesn't sound pleasant.... Why not use your milk and syringe technique with 5mg ish (so take 65mg pills then you can control the remaining 5mg in the milk and take 5mg then 4mg then 3mg or however slow you want to go) This seemed to work for you before at the end of your taper - with me I always seem to find the last little bit of the taper the hardest!!

 

[Oxygal]

I tapered off a 60 mg diazepam habit but honestly it took months and was still difficult. I did a much slower taper of 5 mg every week. There was some definite uneasy anxiety the lower I went but my body would adjust before I would drop again.

Perhaps try a slower tapering schedule.

 

[3dmusic]

I tapered off a 60 mg diazepam habit but honestly it took months and was still difficult. I did a much slower taper of 5 mg every week. There was some definite uneasy anxiety the lower I went but my body would adjust before I would drop again.

Perhaps try a slower tapering schedule.

Hi, I don't have control over my taper, doctor doing it - heard our local drug agency like to get you down to 30mg as soon as possible. Im getting an advocate from rethink to help me.