Opioids Question, Suboxone back to Oxy.

[Heroes Inc.]

Hey y’all. New member here.. I looked for some other threads but this situation seems to be unique..

I switched pharmacies the other day and lemme tell ya, what a shit idea. They would not fill my Percocet 10/325 RX without speaking to my doctor first (even though he submitted electronically). I generally take 40/50 mg per day when I’m having a crohns (GI condition) flare.
Naturally, I had some pretty bad WD symptoms. I had some subs laying around from an old RX, and I really do not like subs. I have no issues tapering off the percs when I need (want) to stop. Only reason I had the subs is my doc thought I might like them more than the Percs when I am have a flare.
So, I was pretty desperate last night. I took 6mg of subs last night, and another 4mg this morning (8am), and 2mg this afternoon (noon).

Now, I can pickup my Percocet RX (6pm). You think it’s ok to have one or two tonight? Or would I just be wasting them? Thanks for the input..

-HI

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

That's a lot of subs... for the future record you really only need to start with 1-2 mgs. Esp for your percocet habit (suboxone is much stronger than many think).

It wouldn't be a waste to take a percocet or two the day after sub induction... but you'd barely feel the euphoric effects. The pain relief would still come through (unless someone has any information that says otherwise for now). I'm not trying to be a"Debbie Downer" and I know you were in withdrawal pain, but please check the substances you are entering within your body before consuming them for next time. It usually takes me 1-2+ days to feel the 100% full effects of any other opiate bc of the blocker mechanism built within suboxone/subutex. 3-4 days after the last suboxone strip and I'm back to normal .

Suboxone has barely *if any* pain relief benefits like percocet/oxy for example. There is no use for using subs as pain assistance whatsoever. They more so work best to keep one out of withdrawal.

 

[deficiT]

You might still get some pain relief, but likely won't get the full effects of the oxycodone until a couple days have passed with no Suboxone.

 

[Jabberwocky]

There is no use for using subs as pain assistance whatsoever. They more so work best to keep one out of withdrawal.

I would disagree on this one. Taking 3 x 0.5mg of buprenorphine daily yields better result in my case than taking 4×5-10 mg of oxycodone. But when the pain requires more than 30-40mg of oxycodone than buprenorphine just cant compete with oxycodone, morphine and all other opioids which allow dose escalation. If 40 mg of oral morphine is enough for me I am more than happy to take buprenorphine. I am more functional on it cause morphine gives me side effects I really dislike. But I would go back on morphine if I was going to kick it. Just my experience.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

I would disagree on this one. Taking 3 x 0.5mg of buprenorphine daily yields better result in my case than taking 4×5-10 mg of oxycodone. But when the pain requires more than 30-40mg of oxycodone than buprenorphine just cant compete with oxycodone, morphine and all other opioids which allow dose escalation. If 40 mg of oral morphine is enough for me I am more than happy to take buprenorphine. I am more functional on it cause morphine gives me side effects I really dislike. But I would go back on morphine if I was going to kick it. Just my experience.

Wow this is the first time anyone has said that suboxone is a bit better at pain relief that I've seen. Iirc bupe was created for the purpose of long-lasting pain relief to eliminate shorter acting opioids which caused.. unbearable redose patterns and was a nightmare for other reasons.

Its good that you have a system to manage your own pain because many rely too much on one form of pain relief and are flustered by the days pain flares up. Oxycodone weirdly is not always good at its job of pain relief some days with high doses. Other days low doses cover pain better than oxy ever could lol. Very complex body mechanics we have.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Wow this is the first time anyone has said that suboxone is a bit better at pain relief that I've seen. Iirc bupe was created for the purpose of long-lasting pain relief to eliminate shorter acting opioids which caused.. unbearable redose patterns and was a nightmare for other reasons.

Its good that you have a system to manage your own pain because many rely too much on one form of pain relief and are flustered by the days pain flares up. Oxycodone weirdly is not always good at its job of pain relief some days with high doses. Other days low doses cover pain better than oxy ever could lol. Very complex body mechanics we have.

I just want to say that days when 40mg of oxycodone, especially in mentioned flair up periods, was enough. But for the people that don't escalate their tolerance and keep bupe(Subutex) on 3x0,5mg sublingualy it isca great pain reliever. Not to mention that if one doses that amountvof bupe short acting opioids still can help as at those dosages most of receptors are still free. But as you painted it the life is not a simple picture and if one has hard chronic pain the dose will escalate to a point where buprenorphine becomes a problem not a solution. I can treat my regular pain with bupe for 2-3 months (or less) and then is either escalation or withdrawal. Opioids could be of great help to people if stigma was lifted and people were educated. But in the current model of even just pain management they too often become a problem in of itself. Take care!

 

[Man67]

That's a lot of subs... for the future record you really only need to start with 1-2 mgs. Esp for your percocet habit (suboxone is much stronger than many think).

It wouldn't be a waste to take a percocet or two the day after sub induction... but you'd barely feel the euphoric effects. The pain relief would still come through (unless someone has any information that says otherwise for now). I'm not trying to be a"Debbie Downer" and I know you were in withdrawal pain, but please check the substances you are entering within your body before consuming them for next time. It usually takes me 1-2+ days to feel the 100% full effects of any other opiate bc of the blocker mechanism built within suboxone/subutex. 3-4 days after the last suboxone strip and I'm back to normal .

Suboxone has barely *if any* pain relief benefits like percocet/oxy for example. There is no use for using subs as pain assistance whatsoever. They more so work best to keep one out of withdrawal.

Excellent answer. After being one year on Subs (for pain) l decided to tapper down because it stopped working. Three months later I am still having bad withdrawal symptoms. This was a mistake but I have to live with it. I'm planning to continue legally prescribed oxy in a small doses (10mg p/d). Is it gonna help with physical and especially psychological withdrawal symptoms? I can't live like this anymore. Thanks.

 

[Heroes Inc.]

Excellent answer. After being one year on Subs (for pain) l decided to tapper down because it stopped working. Three months later I am still having bad withdrawal symptoms. This was a mistake but I have to live with it. I'm planning to continue legally prescribed oxy in a small doses (10mg p/d). Is it gonna help with physical and especially psychological withdrawal symptoms? I can't live like this anymore. Thanks.

Hey there.. good luck on your quest. I’m battling through my own issues too.. and I totally agree with all of the posts.. for my habit (somewhere between 40-60mg per day) 2 mg of subs the first day was plenty. Then 1mg the next day.. and even quickly getting down to .5mg. I notice if I’m having a bad pain flare, I can take two Percocets (10/325) and it definitely helps. Then I just wait a bit (6-8 hours) if I were to take .5 mg of a sub. Seems to be working nicely. My doctor (USA west coast) even thought I could get down to a lower dose of subs, like .1-.2mg while still taking daily percocets and he has seen this work quite well for pain management patients. The theory he has is you don’t need as many Percocet to feel pain relief. He has many many patients who are on this regimen. Interesting. Thought I would share.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Excellent answer. After being one year on Subs (for pain) l decided to tapper down because it stopped working. Three months later I am still having bad withdrawal symptoms. This was a mistake but I have to live with it. I'm planning to continue legally prescribed oxy in a small doses (10mg p/d). Is it gonna help with physical and especially psychological withdrawal symptoms? I can't live like this anymore. Thanks.

Its good that you're legally able to have access. I have no scientific evidence of this, but personally suboxone lowers my tolerance to other opiates and even kratom greatly if I only use subs for a couple of days. Some ppl report the opposite. It probably depends a lot on the doses of stuff and the body chemistry of someone, but inevitably its just always the same fucking dead end. No matter what you do its so difficult to "make the substances work again" without going into horrible withdrawals that make your body readjust to living without opiates. People on here have gotten their doses much lower over time and successfully so, but it always rises again. If you have chronic pain, its going to be painful during that adjustment period of getting the doses lowered. I wouldn't ask for higher doses from a doctor, but honestly if you do have chronic pain and the meds aren't working--then what is the point lol? Taking opiates day after day really does suck as time goes on. It depends how your pain levels are though. Even for chronic pain patients, the inevitable perpetual depression catches up to you after daily use. I find using day after day for months on end results in this terrible depression that you can't pinpoint where its coming from. For someone in constant pain that steals their life away from them, then whatever side effects/depression caused from opioid use is whatever in the end. I only think perpetual daily opioids are worth it for someone thats in pretty bad pain and can't function without the meds. The depression is severe... especially after 2 years of regular use. It starts to really mentally take a toll on anyone from what seems to be after year 2. I think its at least worth mentioning this happening to you from a health professional maybe. I've finally accepted that opiates ruin my life. They result in this horrible depression and loneliness sensation even when I'm around other people on it. After a few years, it really does just become pure hell. I don't have a better answer for you and I'm sorry ur dealing with this. I feel privileged to be able to walk away from it and not deal with chronic pain.. I think it was around yr 4-5 where I officially realized that the substance stops having any pleasurable effects and even doesn't kill pain anymore at higher doses even. It will always help the pain *a little bit* even if your tolerance becomes insane, but unfortunately at this point in time there's just no way to permanently alleviate someone's chronic pain. There's always this double edged sword element to it and it sucks for people physically in extreme pain on the regular. I don't even know how they get by a single week.

 

[Man67]

Its good that you're legally able to have access. I have no scientific evidence of this, but personally suboxone lowers my tolerance to other opiates and even kratom greatly if I only use subs for a couple of days. Some ppl report the opposite. It probably depends a lot on the doses of stuff and the body chemistry of someone, but inevitably its just always the same fucking dead end. No matter what you do its so difficult to "make the substances work again" without going into horrible withdrawals that make your body readjust to living without opiates. People on here have gotten their doses much lower over time and successfully so, but it always rises again. If you have chronic pain, its going to be painful during that adjustment period of getting the doses lowered. I wouldn't ask for higher doses from a doctor, but honestly if you do have chronic pain and the meds aren't working--then what is the point lol? Taking opiates day after day really does suck as time goes on. It depends how your pain levels are though. Even for chronic pain patients, the inevitable perpetual depression catches up to you after daily use. I find using day after day for months on end results in this terrible depression that you can't pinpoint where its coming from. For someone in constant pain that steals their life away from them, then whatever side effects/depression caused from opioid use is whatever in the end. I only think perpetual daily opioids are worth it for someone thats in pretty bad pain and can't function without the meds. The depression is severe... especially after 2 years of regular use. It starts to really mentally take a toll on anyone from what seems to be after year 2. I think its at least worth mentioning this happening to you from a health professional maybe. I've finally accepted that opiates ruin my life. They result in this horrible depression and loneliness sensation even when I'm around other people on it. After a few years, it really does just become pure hell. I don't have a better answer for you and I'm sorry ur dealing with this. I feel privileged to be able to walk away from it and not deal with chronic pain.. I think it was around yr 4-5 where I officially realized that the substance stops having any pleasurable effects and even doesn't kill pain anymore at higher doses even. It will always help the pain *a little bit* even if your tolerance becomes insane, but unfortunately at this point in time there's just no way to permanently alleviate someone's chronic pain. There's always this double edged sword element to it and it sucks for people physically in extreme pain on the regular. I don't even know how they get by a single week.

Thanks a lot for the support and honest & detailed answer. You are 100% right and I have a similar experience. 10 years on painkillers resulted in depression and rebound pain. That was the main reason for switching to Suboxone. It worked for a while but everything has changed overnight. I don't know why because I was on the same dose? I take 2 different antidepressants but still barely managing to keep my head above the water. 8mg Suboxone equals 240mg oxy per day!? A way too much but I asked for it. Although I learned one important thing. Pain is manageable to some extent and what l did all these years was completely wrong. After this horrible experience l intend to take pain medication only when I have no other choice. Sparingly and responsible. Despite wide variety of different antidepressants only a small dose of oxy helps immediately. Makes me get out of bed. Not a perfect choice but the main point is to stay alive. As a war veteran l know that for sure.

 

[Man67]

Hey there.. good luck on your quest. I’m battling through my own issues too.. and I totally agree with all of the posts.. for my habit (somewhere between 40-60mg per day) 2 mg of subs the first day was plenty. Then 1mg the next day.. and even quickly getting down to .5mg. I notice if I’m having a bad pain flare, I can take two Percocets (10/325) and it definitely helps. Then I just wait a bit (6-8 hours) if I were to take .5 mg of a sub. Seems to be working nicely. My doctor (USA west coast) even thought I could get down to a lower dose of subs, like .1-.2mg while still taking daily percocets and he has seen this work quite well for pain management patients. The theory he has is you don’t need as many Percocet to feel pain relief. He has many many patients who are on this regimen. Interesting. Thought I would share.

Thanks for sharing it really means a lot. I was convinced that I will stay on Subs for life because it worked perfectly for almost a year. For pain and depression as well. But then something strange happened and my life turned for 180 degrees. For worse. I can't go back to Subs no matter what. Your method makes perfect sense and l hope it'll stay that way. All the best.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Thanks a lot for the support and honest & detailed answer. You are 100% right and I have a similar experience. 10 years on painkillers resulted in depression and rebound pain. That was the main reason for switching to Suboxone. It worked for a while but everything has changed overnight. I don't know why because I was on the same dose? I take 2 different antidepressants but still barely managing to keep my head above the water. 8mg Suboxone equals 240mg oxy per day!? A way too much but I asked for it. Although I learned one important thing. Pain is manageable to some extent and what l did all these years was completely wrong. After this horrible experience l intend to take pain medication only when I have no other choice. Sparingly and responsible. Despite wide variety of different antidepressants only a small dose of oxy helps immediately. Makes me get out of bed. Not a perfect choice but the main point is to stay alive. As a war veteran l know that for sure.

You know upon revisiting this thread, I'm actually wondering if morphine tablets are your best option. Many ppl on this board claim that *at least in america* the general consensus is that morphine tablets suck for recreational use, but seem to be the most effective for chronic pain. People here can back that up with experience or denounce it, but I do think morphine tablets tend to work the longest and block physical pain the most efficiently. Have you ever tried them? People try to break them down to shoot them up but that's kind of excessive lol. People do calculate the suboxone = morphine = oxy equivalency, but they're different drugs. Like yes... one suboxone strip is an insane amount of morphine in equivalency, but keep in mind I've abused suboxone for several days at a time (mainly years ago). At one point, I had used 4 entire 8 mg strips per day trying to get the most recreational value from subs. I walked away every single time with ZERO withdrawal. For some reason, despite how high the sub equivalancy is, I just don't withdraw from suboxone. If anything, for some reason a couple days of sub abuse lets me walk away with feeling no withdrawal from pills whatsoever. Without those days of sub use, I would've withdrawn quite unpleasantly from oxycodone abuse. So the body doesn't always react the same way to every single type of opioid in my exp at least.

If a suboxone strip is equivalent to 240 oxycodone mgs alone, then something else is happening where I've never withdrawn from suboxone or felt any residual withdrawal after abusing the strips once I ran out of expensive pills. It doesn't work out that way for everyone, but its true that the drugs are different. They affect the brain receptors a tiny bit differently iirc, and it doesn't make sense that my suboxone abuse was way higher in oxy equivalency than my oxy habit, but never felt a single sub withdrawal.. or any withdrawal from the pills that I was going to withdraw from until I used suboxone to get off them. Suboxone is stronger/weaker than people wish, but I don't think its a direct comparison to someone abusing morphine and the withdrawals that come from that. Suboxone withdrawal is known to be so longgggg/mild yet go on forever in some patients, but you can also have a doctor appropriately taper you down from the subs on a timely schedule > face mini suboxone withdrawals as you taper down the dose > jump off to a small dose of regular oxy/morphine and have it more efficient for your pain. One thing that American doctors are genuinely really good at--and dare I say the best in the world at doing--is tapering patients down at a super comfortable pace where they don't experience any withdrawals. American doctors either use some spreadsheet, or some highly organized method of tapering people down off horrible substances that produce terrible withdrawals lol. I've seen doctors treat benzo addiction and ween patients off to feel zero withdrawal from a substance notoriously deadly to withdraw from. They are great at that for some reason. Its probably too late for that, but if I had chronic pain and a perpetual opioid script for potentially life > I would just cold turkey that shit for a week or two if I could miraculously not cave in. Once you reach the point of your prescribed doses "not working anymore," I don't see the point in just carrying onward the same way especially if the doctors won't increase the dose or prescribe something better for pain management. Its basically living in pain > dependent on a substance that isn't even effective anymore > trapped between a rock and hard place. Cold turkeying it can be dangerous for some people but realistically there's just no a good way to approach going forward from that dead end once it hits. I'm guessing you're running out of your scripts a bit early before the ned of the month.

 

[Man67]

Another extremely informative and logical post. Yes I was on codeine (metabolises in liver to morphine) for the good part of my life. As you guess I developed tolerance after some time and since then I was just feeding my rebound pain. So after so many years l decided to quit. My Dr. suggested Suboxone and I agreed. For a several months it was the perfect solution. My pain was almost gone and depression got much, much better. I realised that my teeth were damaged by the acid but didn't care. Everything went down overnight. Just like that. I didn't change a thing but suddenly got all possible Subs side effects. Just then l started tapering and finally quit 2 weeks ago. I still can't get out of bed and feel horrible. So I don't think I have any choice in this matter? The only thing that makes sense to me is to go to the previous meds that were working. But it's up to my Dr. not me. I am just another miserable patient.
ps. After this experience with Subs I am afraid to try anything new. Just don't have strength to do that. Did l mentioned that I have PTSD as a result of war trauma? Need something to feel "normal" again and that's all I am asking for. A 2nd chance.

 

[Heroes Inc.]

Can you get your hands on some psychedelics like microdose LSD or psilocybin?

 

[Man67]

Can you get your hands on some psychedelics like microdose LSD or psilocybin?

No way.