Question about meth

[polarthedog]

SOnim sure everyone has noticed(atleast the ones who use meth) that when you take meth, at first the high is pretty much complete euphoria with very little side effects, then, even if you don’t redose, you slowly start getting more and more side effects and start feeling hungover even though you still feel high.

Why is this?

I’m assuming the meth is metabolizing into more adrenergic drugs, but I’d like to know the scientifically confirmed correct answer.

It seems there must be something going on that is unique to stimulants, because they all have that wierd hungover while still high effect. I’ve never had that with ANY downer, your either in withdrawal, sober, or high, you can’t be dopesick and stung out at the same time, so what’s going on here?

Also, what exactly, makes meth more neurotoxic than opiates or benzodiazepines, it seems like they would all be neurotoxic since they are all desensitizing receptors every time you use them, isn’t that technically brain damage? What am I missing here? And what would make it neuroprotective at dosages of 5-20 mg?

A lot of the research I did on drugs I did by just looking at other peoples threads, and if they didn’t answer a specific question, I never made an account and asked the question myself. I was actually on bluelight for about a decade without making an account. I’ve recently realized that because of this, there’s a lot of stuff I don’t fully understand about drugs, I just made sure to learn enough to use safely :/ that’s good and all, but I want to learn more. I sometimes look at the neuroscience threads, and I’m jealous of the peoples’ superior chemistry/pharmacology/ neuroscience knowledge posting there. I’m going to try to ask a question like this atleast a couple times a week for a while. I’ve been slacking off on studying ever since I got out of prison, I need to start up again. Haven’t picked up my pre calculus textbook at all, and I finished algebra 2 like 3 months ago. I was planning on taking a break because I had burnt out on studying, but I’m pretty sure I’ve gone too long

 

[somnilicious]

I believe it's the dopamine burnout that leaves you feeling just the other shitty effects without the good parts.

Same thing happens with opiates. At first you have lots of euphoria and energy but then that starts to go away so you do more to chase the high. Eventually you don't feel nearly as much euphoria so you over do it and only get the sedating effects and overdose.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

 

[unodelacosa]

SOnim sure everyone has noticed(atleast the ones who use meth) that when you take meth, at first the high is pretty much complete euphoria with very little side effects, then, even if you don’t redose, you slowly start getting more and more side effects and start feeling hungover even though you still feel high.

Why is this?

Bc the drug is wearing off and the body is very homeostatic. If you're taking something that gives you energy and causes euphoria, your body stops naturally producing the endogenous monoamines that regulate how you feel and how much energy you have. B/c meth deals in dopamine and norepinephrine it's "quick & cheap", so to speak, for your body to replenish the dopamine stores, but serotonin is more complex and takes longer for the body to reproduce. This is why heavily serotonergic drugs can't be re-dosed very effectively or efficiently, like MDMA, LSD, most psychedelics, etc.

Meth is somewhat serotonergic, so while it doesn't close itself off from access as quickly as something like LSD or MDMA do, meth will eventually become ineffective in any of us, at least the euphoric serotonergic part, but you can continue using it for the dopamine and adrenaline, but it's a bad way of using meth as this is more neurotoxic and damaging to the dopamine system long-term. To avoid this, take frequent periodic tolerance breaks. Try to think of, and use, meth like a recreational stimulant, and treat things like Adderall and Vyvanse like productivity stimulants used to get work done. You know, kinda like this is my pistol this is my gun; one is for shooting the other's for fun, lol.

Does that makes sense? Hope that answers your question but we can delve deeper if you really want to get into the pharmacodynamics involved.

 

[unodelacosa]

Hey I know that guy. He goes by Pookie … Pookie D. Piper

 

[polarthedog]

Bc the drug is wearing off and the body is very homeostatic. If you're taking something that gives you energy and causes euphoria, your body stops naturally producing the endogenous monoamines that regulate how you feel and how much energy you have. B/c meth deals in dopamine and norepinephrine it's "quick & cheap", so to speak, for your body to replenish the dopamine stores, but serotonin is more complex and takes longer for the body to reproduce. This is why heavily serotonergic drugs can't be re-dosed very effectively or efficiently, like MDMA, LSD, most psychedelics, etc.

Meth is somewhat serotonergic, so while it doesn't close itself off from access as quickly as something like LSD or MDMA do, meth will eventually become ineffective in any of us, at least the euphoric serotonergic part, but you can continue using it for the dopamine and adrenaline, but it's a bad way of using meth as this is more neurotoxic and damaging to the dopamine system long-term. To avoid this, take frequent periodic tolerance breaks. Try to think of, and use, meth like a recreational stimulant, and treat things like Adderall and Vyvanse like productivity stimulants used to get work done. You know, kinda like this is my pistol this is my gun; one is for shooting the other's for fun, lol.

Does that makes sense? Hope that answers your question but we can delve deeper if you really want to get into the pharmacodynamics involved.

I learned from what you said, but I think you misunderstood my question, I’m wanting to know why you still high while hungover, when I do opiates or any other drug really, I’m either at baseline, high, or in withdrawal, there’s no mixture of a comedown with a high with any drug class except stimulants in general

Though from peoples replies, I’m starting to wonder if I’m the only one who gets that kind of reaction

Also, I’m not sure I made this known, I don’t use meth more than once a week at low doses, so it’s not a tolerance thing, I don’t really even redose more than a couple time since at most because I plug it and it lasts forever anyway

 

[polarthedog]

I believe it's the dopamine burnout that leaves you feeling just the other shitty effects without the good parts.

Same thing happens with opiates. At first you have lots of euphoria and energy but then that starts to go away so you do more to chase the high. Eventually you don't feel nearly as much euphoria so you over do it and only get the sedating effects and overdose.

I don’t get that from opiates, though I only really do long acting opiates like subutex or poppy pods, maybe thats why? I don’t feel a need to redose after my one use of the day. Then I’m either on it and feeling good, or not on it and feeling bad, there isn’t any crossover

 

[somnilicious]

Yeah.... That's a different story. You'll still stop getting the positives long before you stop getting other effects. You just won't really notice as much because your receptors are always completely saturated. I don't have much experience with Suboxone. They didn't really have it by the first time I got on methadone. Poppy pods have lots of other alkaloids
as well. Thebaine especially counteracts any sedation.

 

[unodelacosa]

I learned from what you said, but I think you misunderstood my question, I’m wanting to know why you still high while hungover

That's a highly subjective statement. Depends on how you define "high" and "hungover" in this context. Comparing it to alcohol, you can be drunk still and hungover simultaneously. I imagine it works similarly to this.

There's also two phases of the drug's qualitative effects: the initial rush and then the slower come up buzz. The first sort of passes the baton to the second, so to speak.

Though from peoples replies, I’m starting to wonder if I’m the only one who gets that kind of reaction

I doubt it. While everyone is unique, we have far more in common than not, each of us. I don't think I've ever heard someone describe their high that way before, but I think I know what you mean anyway.

Also, I’m not sure I made this known, I don’t use meth more than once a week at low doses, so it’s not a tolerance thing, I don’t really even redose more than a couple time since at most because I plug it and it lasts forever anyway

Fair enough. Not the most social method of using a drug though, is it?

Thebaine especially counteracts any sedation.

True story.

"Thebaine, also known as codeine methyl enol ether, is an opiate alkaloid, its name coming from the Greek Θῆβαι, Thēbai, an ancient city in Upper Egypt. A minor constituent of opium, thebaine is chemically similar to both morphine and codeine, but has stimulatory rather than depressant effects. At high doses, it causes convulsions similar to strychnine poisoning."

 

[polarthedog]

Meth is somewhat serotonergic, so while it doesn't close itself off from access as quickly as something like LSD or MDMA do, meth will eventually become ineffective in any of us, at least the euphoric serotonergic part, but you can continue using it for the dopamine and adrenaline, but it's a bad way of using meth as this is more neurotoxic and damaging to the dopamine system long-term. To avoid this, take frequent periodic tolerance breaks. Try to think of, and use, meth like a recreational stimulant, and treat things like Adderall and Vyvanse like productivity stimulants used to get work done. You know, kinda like this is my pistol this is my gun; one is for shooting the other's for fun, lol.

I thought one of the reasons that meth was more neurotoxic than amphetamines was that increasing dopamine and serotonin at the same time is More neurotoxic than increasing one more than the other?

 

[unodelacosa]

I thought one of the reasons that meth was more neurotoxic than amphetamines was that increasing dopamine and serotonin at the same time is More neurotoxic than increasing one more than the other?

The way I understand it is that while both meth and amp increase dopamine and serotonin levels in the brain, meth is generally considered to be more neurotoxic than amphetamine for an array of reasons. However, the reasons behind this difference are more complex than solely focusing on the combined effect of increasing both dopamine and serotonin. The increased neurotoxicity of methamphetamine is attributed to several factors, including its ability to cross the blood-brain barrier more readily, its increased release and inhibition of dopamine and serotonin reuptake, its higher potency at activating specific receptors, and its metabolism into toxic metabolites. These factors collectively contribute to the increased neurotoxic effects observed with methamphetamine use.

While both dopamine and serotonin play crucial roles in the brain, the specific mechanism through which methamphetamine induces neurotoxicity is not solely dependent on the simultaneous increase of both neurotransmitters. Other factors, such as oxidative stress, excitotoxicity, and inflammation, are also involved in methamphetamine-induced neurotoxicity. And still other individual factors might include: dose, frequency of use, duration of use, and individual susceptibility. Moreover, individual responses to these substances can differ, making it challenging to draw definitive conclusions about their neurotoxicity solely based on one aspect, such as the simultaneous increase of dopamine and serotonin.

Consider for a moment: the reason drugs have psychoactive effects is because they so closely resemble our own natural, endogenous neurotransmitters. The two we're discussing are a phenethylamine and a tryptamine – or i.e.: dopamine and serotonin, respectively. Dopamine is the catechol, 3,4-dihydroxyphenethylamine, and adrenaline is the beta-hydroxy version of n-methyl-dopamine. And then of course serotonin is 5-hydroxy-tryptamine. Add two methyl groups to the nitrogen and it's bufotenine. Then add a methyl to the oxygen group and you've got 5-MeO-DMT. Or move that 5-hydroxy to the 4-position and you've got psilocin, 4-HO-DMT. Drop the 4-HO group and you get to n,n-DMT. It's no wonder all those tryptamines do what they do in our brains. They're damn near the same thing as serotonin. Of course those keys fit the locks, as it were.