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Psychoactive drugs from multiple sources (Now MG's and ergot alkaloids)

T

twoplustoo

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What are some other chemicals that are naturally present in different species of plants? The only two I can think of are caffeine, for instance, which is found in tea leaves, coffee beans, cocoa beans?, etc... and nicotine, found in cloves and tobacco.

Oh and I believe DMT is found in a variety of plant species... any other examples? Thanks...
 
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Lsa is found in the seeds of a few different plants if that counts. Mushrooms, peyote, and cannabis too, of course. They might not count, since they only vary in sub-species. Amanita mushrooms would be in that category as well. This isn't exactly "advanced" drug discussion material, btw.
 
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I think psilocin is found in both psilocybe species and gymnus spectabilis (sp??)
Tropanes are also found in many different species.
 
Kavalactone from Kava (Piper methysticum)
Salvinorin A from Salvia Divinorum
Bufotenine (5-OH-DMT) from Anadenanthera Peregrina seeds
5-MeO-DMT (and Bufotenine) from Colorado River Toad/Bufo Alvarius

There's a small list
 
I may be reading this wrong but I think what the OP is searching for are examples where the same chemical is present in different species of plants or animals. anyway that is the way I'm goin...

More impressive is where the same chemical is present in a totally different genus, rather than close related species.

the classic example being ergolines LSA and similar which are present in a fungus ergot and a higher plant ipomoea, whenever I see complex molecules being very widely distributed in plants I tend to suspect that it isn't the plant that is making it, rather a parasitic or symbiotic fungus or bacteria that is making it. this seems to be the case with some ipomoea (morning glory) and ergolines, treat some species where the ergolines are in the leaves with fungicide and the ergolines disappear, suggesting there is a fungus of some sort that permanently infects the plant and deters herbivores.

Tetrodotoxin TTX is a deliciously complex and similarly widely spread toxin, from the blue ringed octopus which is an invertebrate to the puffer fish and on to several kinds of sponge, again there are strong hints that is a bacteria that is infecting these widely differing plants and creatures and making the toxin for them in exchange for a home.

other good example is Coniine which is the poison in hemlock an umbellifer (which did for socrates), the same toxin is also found in Sarracenia pitcher plants where it is believed to help stun its prey. there is no suggestion that anything other than the plant makes the toxin.

I find it very interesting that very different plants come up independently with the same secondary metabolites and toxins. Certainly the simpler toxins are very widespread, which makes sense when you consider that they are much more likely to evolve independently.

That the same toxins or secondary metabolites appear in different species ofbacteria is much less amazing as bacteria readily swap genes with each other even with bacteria that are not closely related. If this gene coded for a toxin or a secondary metabolite and it was an evolutionary advantage to make it, then it would become widespread.

Anyway back to LSA, I wonder if it is possible to isolate and cultivate separately the fungus that is responsible for producing the LSA in morning glory and HBWR seeds? also is it possible to remove it to produce a race of morning glories without hallucinogenic effects..
 
vecktor said:
the classic example being ergolines LSA and similar which are present in a fungus ergot and a higher plant ipomoea, whenever I see complex molecules being very widely distributed in plants I tend to suspect that it isn't the plant that is making it, rather a parasitic or symbiotic fungus or bacteria that is making it. this seems to be the case with some ipomoea (morning glory) and ergolines, treat some species where the ergolines are in the leaves with fungicide and the ergolines disappear, suggesting there is a fungus of some sort that permanently infects the plant and deters herbivores.
Click to expand...


PLEASE tell me where you found this from, I would love to know!
btw, i was not aware there are ergolines in the leaves, i thought it was exclusive to the seeds...

Tetrodotoxin TTX is a deliciously complex and similarly widely spread toxin, from the blue ringed octopus which is an invertebrate to the puffer fish and on to several kinds of sponge, again there are strong hints that is a bacteria that is infecting these widely differing plants and creatures and making the toxin for them in exchange for a home.
Click to expand...

also found in the rough skinned newt of the PNW

the marine world is filed with stories like this

oh, and chocolate has anadamide-like molecules, similar to thc

the terpenes are ubiquitous in many kingdoms
 
kidamnesiac said:
PLEASE tell me where you found this from, I would love to know!
btw, i was not aware there are ergolines in the leaves, i thought it was exclusive to the seeds...



also found in the rough skinned newt of the PNW

the marine world is filed with stories like this

oh, and chocolate has anadamide-like molecules, similar to thc

the terpenes are ubiquitous in many kingdoms
Click to expand...

one abstract for the ipomoea leaf thing is here http://www.springerlink.com/content/kby3dh4vedhcn14l/

(BTW it isn't I. tricolor the common MGS)

I am currently rather interested in the symbiosis concept because there are several related species that produce lysergol which indicates if it is a fungus then it has a different biochemistry to C purpurea which doesn't produce lysergol in any quantity.
with ipomoea tricolor the symbionts are either damn good at producing ergolines or the plant is concentrating them because the concentration of ergolines in seeds is about the same as ergot sclerotia but the sclerotia is pure fungal material wheras the MG seeds are mostly MG.
 
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Don't forget atropine, scopolamine, and that family of alkaloids. They are present in Belladonna (nightshade), Datura spp and Brugmansias spp.
 
Yeah the one that surprised me was the discovery that human cells can make morphine. Not only that but when they looked into the details it was using a different synthetic route to the biosynthesis found in opium which implies that the pathways evolved separately.
 
I'm telling you that just cuz a morning glory maybe infected with an ergot alkaloid fungus that has absolutely nothing to do with it's ergoline content.
 
toxide said:
I'm telling you that just cuz a morning glory maybe infected with an ergot alkaloid fungus that has absolutely nothing to do with it's ergoline content.
Click to expand...

Really! :\

please tell.

I have read both the recent papers and they make a rather convincing case. I do think its somewhat unlikely that convulvulaceae a dicot family independantly evolved the ability to synthesise abcd ergolines or even abc partial ergolines (clavines) when no other dicot or even monocot has to my knowledge.
 
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I'd be very interested in seeing any papers that suggest the ergolines in MG are not from the plant, but from a fungus. This is the first I have heard about this...and that is what everyone thought at first (even suggesting A.H. was wrong when he isolated ergolines from MG), so this is news to me.
 
After reading that paper and a few follow-ups where they isolated the fungus (no culture yet, damn!), I'm convinced it is the fungus that is doing it. Quite amazing research.
Also of interest, apparently the leaves do contain significant levels of LAA(s), as was shown by previous published research and a few enterprising souls @ the Hive.
 
^^do you hava a link to the archive, I have been able to get on the rhodium archive, but I cant get on the hive.
Any help would be greatly appreciated:)
 
Yeah...ditto. I'd love to see that as well. If I recall, I did make tea from morning glory leaf in my youth...and I do recall feeling something but certainly not anything akin to eating the seeds.
 
morninggloryseed said:
Yeah...ditto. I'd love to see that as well. If I recall, I did make tea from morning glory leaf in my youth...and I do recall feeling something but certainly not anything akin to eating the seeds.
Click to expand...

I think the paper suggested that the fungus lives in the leaves but the ergolines are transported and concentrated into the seeds by the plant. This suggests that the concentration of ergolines in the leaves will be a lot lower than the seeds so less than 0.4% probably much lower.
I believe that there are other alkaloids in the leaves of MG's they are used in indian medicine but are used in a way suggestive that these other alkaloids are not ergolines or ergoline like,I will try and remember a chemical name or something so I can search for it.

the hive archive did lurk around on son of hive however the hive admins radically pruned the archive and removed a lot of the interesting and useful information.

the other really interesting thing that this lead to was that ergolines can be produced by aspergillis fumigatus, now provided that aflatoxin producion is suppressed this strain could yeald far higher concentrations than claviceps species in culture, in addition aspergillis appears to produce ergolines mostly during vegetative growth. In fact aspergillis is much easier to culture generally.

V
 
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vecktor said:
this seems to be the case with some ipomoea (morning glory) and ergolines, treat some species where the ergolines are in the leaves with fungicide and the ergolines disappear, suggesting there is a fungus of some sort that permanently infects the plant and deters herbivores.
Click to expand...

Two references...the first one listed above by vecktor
  • Elimination of ergoline alkaloids following treatment of Ipomoea asarifolia (Convolvulaceae) with fungicides
Sabine Kucht, Julia Groß, Yasser Hussein, Torsten Grothe, Ullrich Keller, Simla Basar, Wilfried A. König, Ulrike Steiner and Eckhard Leistner

Planta
Volume 219, Number 4 / August, 2004, pp. 619-625

A study followed up by...
  • Molecular characterization of a seed transmitted clavicipitaceous fungus occurring on dicotyledoneous plants (Convolvulaceae)
Ulrike Steiner, Mahalia A. Ahimsa-Müller, Anne Markert, Sabine Kucht, Julia Groß, Nicole Kauf, Monika Kuzma, Monika Zych, Marc Lamshöft, Miroslawa Furmanowa, Volker Knoop, Christel Drewke and Eckhard Leistner

Planta
Volume 224, Number 3 / August, 2006, 533-544

Noted in the publication above, the authors add...

" Dedicated to Dr. Dr. h. c. mult. Albert Hofmann, the great pioneer of ergot research, on the occasion of his 100th birthday"
 
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