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  • Trip Reports Moderator: Cheshire_Kat

Prof David Nutt is an idiot :D (kava, amanita, kratom, oc, weed, kanna)

cdin

cdin

Bluelight Crew
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Spending all his time looking for an ethanol replacement in the benzo scaffolding.

i figured it out :) -- a little background -- long time booze hound, bzd popper, abuser of all types of gaba agents. CPTSD diagnosis, long term major anxiety problems, whole family has defective GABA system/gets ethanol DTS super easily and are just generally anxious people.

Years back now I was nearing the point of no seizure threshold, and bit the bullet. Came off all of them, and have stayed off. However - I have still had the itch for a "drink" a relaxy, GABA oriented liquid, and been on a quest to find that. I think today I finally discovered the holy grail.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7701051/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27332705/

Amanita muscaria is something I've been experimenting with since the bzd wd. It's a fantastic plant ally, and one of the only true gaba-a agonists in the pharmacopeia. However, there's a fine line with it between too little buzz and drooly delerium, I wanted a way to increase it's lower level
activity but not by dumping a bunch of extra-cellular GABA (as it can be converted into glutamate readily. which is unpleasant AF) --- turns out, kavain increases the binding of muscimol at gaba sites by up to 358%!!!

So I prepared -- approx 400mg kavalactones (extract and lyophilized powder) and a squirt of tincture in glass with approx 3 squirts (.75g) decarboxylated amanita tincture. (the decarbed part is important!! don't want ibotenic acid!) I added some lemon la Croix, a dash of bitters,
and a base of ginger lemonade. garnished w lil salt, lemon rind rubbed round the edge and hung on glass. The result: GODDAMN PERFECTION. I am sitting here relaxed and amazed, i made another one a bit ago (1 squirt, only 2 of nita, this is potent and i don't want to overdo it).
muscles are relaxed, I'm singing and grinning. Took my pain meds (little bit of kratom and oxycodone), potentiated nicely.

All the positive ups id want out of a couple pints of beer. And the best thing is that I know specifically i will not get GABA rebounds from one off amanita or kava. (hopefully the combo does not change that at all).

It's a bit self limiting, kava gets weird at super high doses so this is a 2 - 3 pints of beer thing that can be maintained. but you know what? I should never a been drinking more than that in a sitting anyhow.

weed plays nice. Thinking to add 25mg kanna and see if that is ok. Going to string my guitar and watch these senate hearings with the rest of my night, maybe make a couple more weaker ones to tail out the experience.

This was exactly the experience i was looking for, I'm so grateful to have figured this out.
 
adding 50mg of kanna up the schnozz evened it out and sharpened it up in a very nice way. Altogether 5/5 experience
got exactly where i wanted to go.
 
I know David Nutt quite well and I find him to be very smart BUT he is NOT a medicinal chemist and seems totally disinterested in the whole field. It's a blind spot likely due to arrogance. He DOES like to be in the media a lot. If he's ever given the RIGHT compound to substitute for ethanol, he's well enough respected to get it accepted.

That said, the fact he keeps thinking he has a substitute without even understanding what produces the unique effects of alcohol IS a problem.

That is why when offered shares or cash, I took cash. 8 years later, I'm glad I did.
 
Fertile said:
I know David Nutt quite well and I find him to be very smart BUT he is NOT a medicinal chemist and seems totally disinterested in the whole field. It's a blind spot likely due to arrogance. He DOES like to be in the media a lot. If he's ever given the RIGHT compound to substitute for ethanol, he's well enough respected to get it accepted.

That said, the fact he keeps thinking he has a substitute without even understanding what produces the unique effects of alcohol IS a problem.

That is why when offered shares or cash, I took cash. 8 years later, I'm glad I did.
Click to expand...
in fairness my title is facetious, but I have noticed this pattern in him. I obviously don't know him personally, just jokin a lil in the title. but seriously kavanita is the best :))
 
I cant understand why pick alcohol when its the shittest "high" of all drugs by a long, long way. Well I can understand if hes hoping for the cash from a new kind of alcohol
 
cdin said:
adding 50mg of kanna up the schnozz evened it out and sharpened it up in a very nice way. Altogether 5/5 experience
got exactly where i wanted to go.
Click to expand...
Schnozz meaning nose? You’re snoring kanna? 🤔
 
Kanna is good sublingually, like, long time chewed or kept in the mouth as powder form, for more than 15 minutes. Orally feels more sedating.
 
Ismene2 said:
I cant understand why pick alcohol when its the shittest "high" of all drugs by a long, long way. Well I can understand if hes hoping for the cash from a new kind of alcohol
Click to expand...

Alcohol has a mixture of positive and negative effects. First one has to find out all of the sites ethanol acts on and then find which are positive and which are negative. I gave him pyeyzolam. That is an excellent 'drunk' pill i.e. it will produce ALL of the positive effects of, say, a bottle of vodka, with none of the negatives (nausea, hangover, retrograde amnesia, presyncope).

The problem was that it could not emulate 2 glasses of wine. I've found out why and firstly I had to use 2 compounds (Pyeyzolam & pybazam) to allow for a proper alcohol mimic but now I've got it down to 1. Getting it down to 1 halves the long, costly and difficult process of getting a GSL for a new drug - because at least initially it WOULD be classed as a drug.

Hopefully one day I will be able to show people the compound. People will be surprised at how unsurprising it is and possibly even laugh at how I got it from 2 to 1 compound.
 
BTW pyeuzolam is a privilaged structure. He doesn't know it - but it does emulate ethanol at any dose.... but nobody is willing to pay.
 
You guys are lucky to get potent kava. The regular forms require loads for little effects and I wrote it off due to being so non potent. I would love to try this combo with amanita muscaria, maybe I'll encounter some fly agarics again some day.
 
The problem with kava is the risk of liver injury. We aren't quite sure WHICH alkaloid(s) are responsible.

pipermethystine seems a front-runner. I believe traditionally only the roots of the plant were used and this is found in the aerial parts of the plant. But other materials like flflavokavain B are also suggesrted.

What it would need is for someone to buy each of the kavalactones (enough for a few doses) and find out what is important for the subjective effects. Chemically they are not complex to make.

 
Fertile said:
The problem with kava is the risk of liver injury. We aren't quite sure WHICH alkaloid(s) are responsible.
Click to expand...

is this so? i know that there were problems otc available kava extracts in pharceutical products around 2004 in germany, they got taken off the shelves. iirc these problems did not occur with tradidtional kava consuming populations or somewhere else where normal kava roots have been used.
 
Yes - the preparation is important. While anthropologists record and detail the ceremonies that surround the preparation of a traditional medicine, it was only recently that they really got the idea that MAYBE their was a practical reason?
 
BTW (S)-Kavain has the highest GABA affinity but their isn't a single synthesis anywhere.

I'm presuming it's going to require a long-chain substituted phenyl alkene which undergoes dehydration. But then you have to resolve the isomers. It isn't too friendly.
 
Fertile said:
BTW (S)-Kavain has the highest GABA affinity but their isn't a single synthesis anywhere.

I'm presuming it's going to require a long-chain substituted phenyl alkene which undergoes dehydration. But then you have to resolve the isomers. It isn't too friendly.
Click to expand...

sometimes, the isolated active principles are less potent or even almost not usable (see pure THC) when used on its own without the composition of compounds the plant offers.
 
I was under the impression that THC is VERY active it it's pure form. It's affinity and LogP values would suggest so.

I think their are a lot of myths about drugs because the effects are subjective. So many myths build up so quickly and are repeated - often for decades.

Now maybe the other kavalactones will alter the metabolism of (S)-karvain, but I don't think so. I mean, people have found the precise GABA receptor subtype and the affinity... but of course, one has to try the stuff to know.

I've just noted some places offer (S)-kacain, others (R/S)-kavain. I wonder if that represents synthesis OR maybe the 2 isomers occur naturally but only one of them is active.

The condensation of (6E)-5-hydroxy-3-methoxy-7-phenylhept-6-enoic acid is the obvious route. (5S,6E)-5-hydroxy-3-methoxy-7-phenylhept-6-enoic acidwould produce just the (S).both of those from N#CCC(OC)CC(O)/C=C/c1ccccc1.... but then it gets messy. Going to need to weld some carbons together.
 
Fertile said:
I was under the impression that THC is VERY active it it's pure form
Click to expand...

Oh it is, they sold it as dronabinol over here but it is not recreational at all. Way to stoning and no good bodyload. Tested it with 5-6 friends in a church and nobody could speak a word for hours. I was the only one asked 2 questions during this time. No one could even answer.
 
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