Pride in one's Country - Serious or silly ?

[Cyc]

This is sparked by what I would consider a pretty serious argument (what started as a debate) between myself and my (Romanian) girlfriend.
While we were taking our usual Monday night stroll to the movie store, I started talking whimsically about the whole concept of patriotism or taking pride in one's country - My thesis was based on my belief that taking pride in something that cannot be controlled is pointless. So by that logic, since you don't earn your heritage - it is just arbitrarily given to you - I told her that pride in heritage or origin was senseless. I further made the connection that racism and segregation stemmed from such pride and the world would do much better without it.
Well, I had no idea how much you could offend someone by logically debasing their right to ethnic pride. What I was told (through tears of anger) was that I couldn't understand (being Canadian) what it was like to take pride in anything ethnic because my backround is without substance from living in the homogenous Westernized society.
Now, considering that I'm not used to seeing her so upset, I didn't jump right to the defensive, rather tried to elicit something a little more concrete.
I tried to give examples of self-segregation by different ethnic communities and asked her how they could possibly justify ethnic pride when making the conscious decision to move out of the area.
My final point was to ask her what she thought separated one country from another besides invisible borders and government institutions. She said that she pitied me because I couldn't understand the fierce pride that one could take in their heritage.
In the end, it was clear that the debate was won by me, (atleast in terms of logic) but it seems like a hollow victory since she still isn't speaking to me and the chances of this treatment relenting tonight are pretty slim.
I'm wondering, are any other ethnic Bluelighters on the board so hung up about the subject of where they are from ? I guess I have still assume that for most people, ethnicity is nothing more than those invisible walls that separate one government from the next.
I can finally justify a use for the globe icon.

Kyk.

 

[*Cosmic Mist*]

I'm an Aussie, but i used to live in Montreal, so i understand the whole "not living the country of origin" thing. I can see both sides of the argument - when i was in Canada, for the first time i realised how much i loved my Australia, yet while i was living in Aust, i took it for granted. For me, it wasn't a case of national pride, but mroe "home is where the heart is" - i felt that, while Canada is abolutely BEAUTIFUL (and i would definately live there again!) Australia was still my home.
It's strange though, i don't believe in pride in a flag, or other symbol of one's country. I have a Quebecois flag hanging in my room, but it's more to remind me of my time over there, rather than any sort of pride.
A lot of people gain a sense of identity through their cultural background however, and i believe that everyone has a right to take pride in that identity if they so wish. For me, it's no different than taking pride in one's sub-culture (raver, goth, homie, whatever). It's a way of identifying with other people, and as social animals, it's a part of our life.
Just my 0.02

 

[rm-rf]

in the future there wont be countries. We will all wake up, and see that were really the same.
However, I do agree with American citizen's having pride for their nationality. Ive got some for ya (do not read if you dont like America, it will really piss you off):
Few today take into consideration how great this country is. You can do whatever the fuck you want here. Get whatever job you want. Choose whoever you want to marry. Practice whatever religion you want. Live anywhere in the damn huge ass mofo country you want (which has so many different habitaits! Mountains, deserts, near-tropical, temperate, forest, plains, we got it all). We even get to choose who runs our government! On top of that, WE EVEN GET TO CHOOSE OUR OWN LAWS. How cool is that? This country caters to the individual. In America, you can be the dirt poorest person in the universe, and with enough work, become an economically content happy person. You can even become filthy rich if you play your cards right. Everything is designed for the consumer's convienience. You can find food anywhere in this country. You can find Clothing pretty damn easy too. Has anyone reading this suffered from real hunger? Have you actually been forced to go several days without food, due to NONE BEING AVAILABLE (laziness doesnt count)? Hell, in America you can BUY A GUN, and go find your own food (depending on time of year and where you live). How many other countries got a Las Vegas? A Burbon Street? An Atlantic City (rofl)? 9 Billion Channel Television? Washer and Dryer in every home? Stoves, Dishwashers, Refridgerators, Microwaves, Toasters, several Televisions, multiple personal computers, high speed internet accsess, large sterios, 2.5 cars, coffee machines, DVD player, libraries, king size beds, AND more than one bathroom IN THE SAME FUCKING HOUSE?
Sure bitch about all the dumb people, the rude people, the ignorant people, the lost people, the inconciderate people. Bitch about politics. Bitch about war. Bitch about gas rates. Bitch about beliefs. Bitch about education. Bitch about governing powers. Bitch about lawyers, about reforms, about taxes, and about drugs. Step up to the plate and take control, if you want to. Its America, you can .
Fuck all you complaining ignorant children. Fuck you socialist bastards. Fuck you who whould leave world dictators to stomp the shit out of us. Fuck you who ignore the fact that there really isnt a better place for you to go and live your life in. Fuck you who dont realize that the easier your life gets, the more your going to complain about all the shit you take for granted.
I love the USA. We're not perfect, but hey its a damn fun place to live. Compared to the average person in the world, Im a fucking king, I live in a fucking palace, and I have more power than thought imaginable. In my country, im very low middle class. Hah! If you dont like it, CHANGE IT.

 

[C12H17N2O4P]

in the future there wont be countries. We will all wake up, and see that were really the same.
Doubt it. This species will wipe each other out before we conform with everybody. There's no way fanatical religious groups are just going to "give up". The same way that the united states military is not going to "give up". These factions that are defined now, the united states, other major powers, etc, are the last teams chose. This is it, it's over after the next couple of wars. All that will remain then are scattered pockets of people that for whatever reason wern't touched by radiation. Yay, let's all go to antartica!
Patriotism for your country is fine. There's nothing wrong with banding together will fellow citizens. The mass is never a force to not be reckoned. This country (united states) is constantly defining itself as a single player, a dominate force, patriotism just supports that idea.

 

[Luminary]

THE WOOD:
It is very easy to love your freedoms in America, but I have no idea how anyone can love or take pride in how those freedoms were gained.
We gained our freedoms from the corruption, decimation and enslavement of peaceful and innocent cultures,
the thoughtless spreading of diseases and environmental corruption and pollution, the ignorant cheating and betraying of other countries for the cause of greed,
the unnecessary instigation and causing of war for the cause of pleasure, the injustful degradation and internment of our own citizens...the list goes on and on and on and on...
With this in mind, I personally cannot possibly take any pride in America or its government.
I can be glad I have freedoms, but I most certainly cannot be proud of them or respect them.
Also, WOOD, you act like America is the only country that has freedoms.
There are other countries that have the same freedoms as America, and gained them with no corruption or violence. There are countries who also have much less ignorant people and have better laws.
Allow me to give a perfect example: Denmark.
Denmark is one of the only constantly neutral countries in the world, and was the only country that actually welcomed and tried to help, give refuge and save everyone who was oppressed by Nazi Germany in WW2.
They have all the same freedoms as America, except they developed them without any violent or negative methods. The main method of transportation in Denmark is the bicycle.
Violence and apathy is not promoted by their pop culture like America's does, they also don't shelter their public from sex and sexuality and dont regard it as a taboo. They also don't use sex as a hedonistic tool to manipulate others, it is regarded as an extremely natural thing that is about love, not orgasms.
In a collaboration of news agencies all over the world, a study was conducted to see what place in the world was the worst to lose something valuable. They did this by placing wallets in cities in countries all over the world. The wallets had a small amount of money, an ID, and contact information to return the wallet. The results were that Ameirca was the worst country (the worst city being Atlanta, Georgia) with none of the wallets being returned.
Denmark was the best country, 100% of all wallets were returned.
Also, marijuana is perfectly legal in Denmark.
Now, that may have sounded like a big huge rant on Denmark, but it was actually to say that America, is, by no means the best country to live in or take any pride in.
The american government makes you believe it is the greatest country by portraying all other countries as inferior in one way or another.
Namaste! :D
-Luminary

 

[DJSethNichols]

I agree...
Isn't 'pride' one of the seven deadly sins?
I have pride in the human race and faith in their beautiful and global way of living...ONE DAY.
Today I just have hopes and ideas...
Pride is sensless IMO...
Just cause you were born here doesn't mean you have ANYTHING to do with where we are today...
I'm glad, but I'm not proud.
I only see minorities of things in this life that would even make me proud of a nation or a 'people'...We have a long way to go before we can trully be proud IMO.
Even then...having pride may just cut the legs right out from under us...
I don't believe in symbols of patriotism...I don't agree with patriotism. I see all people as the one and the same...the only difference being our perception of flesh...and the ideals we are seperatley brought up in that differ. We have drawn the lines...they were not placed there naturally.
Why should I have pride in the red/white/blue when I have just as much consideration and care for all other human walks of life?...despite where they come from.

 

[beanergrl]

C12H17N2O4P - wow!and this is so totally off topic (blows kisses to kewl and nads )but i so totally agree with you. the prophets in the old test say that it will become like the days of noah again when man was left to rebuild on the earth.(want to add that i dont believe that noah and family were the only people left, just in noahs areas and im referring to the noah that the hebrew noah story was taken from.)when the old test talks of the new earth it is a clearly different earth that john in revelation speaks of. i believe the first new earth to be the period of thousand years of peace.
God has left us the earth and just as in the days of noah He will leave the chosen to repopulate it and take the rest. scripture says that the meek will inherit the earth. born agains waiting for the rapture will quote a verse from the bible that says that two women will be working in a field tilling grain or something and one will be taken and the other left. they cite this verse with Jesus coming back and saving them from everything. but it's the woman who is working in the field thats picked to live here those thousand years. God is going to leave His chosen people and take the rest.i want to be "left behind".
in the prophet isaiah 65 verse 18 it says that after this great war and natural disasters "
they shall build their own houses and inhabit them; they shall plant their own vineyards and eat their own fruit. they shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and eat anothers eat."
doesnt this sound like an earth that has been destroyed my war,ect? we would have to plant and be responsible for our own food. we would have to build our own houses again. the woman who was left tilling in the field is left to eat her own food.
the prophet amos in a vision where he heard God writes that in the new earth that "they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them. they shall plant gardens and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink wine and they shall make gardens and eat fruit.I will pluck them upon their land and they shall never again be plucked out of the land from which i have given them says the Lord your God."
well, i could go on with examples. but i also want to say that i believe that the theroy of atlantis was real and that there were several atlantis' actually. and that they disappeared in the days of noah, the real noah that was wrote about 10,000 years at least before bible noah. so in a sense maybe this earths life process is like a circle and we are coming around again.
i guess taking pride in your country is like taking pride in anything else. i dont see the difference. i dont think it's a good thing or a bad just not my thing.sometimes though when i lived in orlando and my husband and i would stroll the lake and walk downtown at night and it felt really good and i would start to feel proud that i lived there. but then i realized that it because there was a lot of good vibrant energy there thats what was making me feel good. i hate to start "priding" something. i dont know why, it's probably a personal thing.
[ 05 November 2002: Message edited by: beanergrl ]

 

[psychoblast]

Kyk:
Preach on! I've said this many, many times and I think even posted it on here a number of times in different threads.
YOU CANNOT TAKE PRIDE IN SOMETHING YOU DID NOT ACCOMPLISH. I did absolutely nothing to MAKE myself be born in America. Therefore, I cannot take PRIDE in being American. Further, the notion of pride implies superiority. As in, "I'm proud to live in America, it is the greatest country in the world." Well, shit, how the hell does anyone know their country is the greatest? Isn't it enough that it is a good country, does it have to be better than all the others?
Anyone who cannot see any flaws with America is an idiot, too. If anything, I'd rather have Americans sit around and list ways to improve the country rather than pat themselves on the back about how great it is.
Okay, I'll qualify this so that if you PERSONALLY were responsible for making America great, you can take pride in that. But I doubt your average Joe Lunchbox or Sally Housecook can really claim that honor. In fact, I'm not sure any American living today has done enough to take pride in this nation... Perhaps some members of the US Supreme Court (giving us the Right to Privacy, Miranda Rights, Freedom from Unreasonable Searches and Seizures, etc.)
Face it, for most of us in civilized, technologically advanced and relatively wealthy countries (whether USA, Canada, England, Australia, France, Germany, Sweden, Japan, etc.) you LUCKED INTO being here. This is OBVIOUSLY true if you were born here, and it is even true that luck probably played the key role if you immigrated here.
People should take pride in themselves and in their accomplishments. Not in some abstraction that existed before them and that they did not play any significant part in shaping.
Nationalism SUCKS!!! It is stupid, unreasonable and illogical.
That's all, I'm running late. I've got to go to my "Proud to be a Virgo" rally, then my "Proud to have blue eyes" rally. Maybe I'll see you there.
~psychoblast~

 

[Cyc]

^
Very nicely spun.
Anyone care to take this on ?

 

[Cimora]

I think to like the fact that your ancestors come from a particular culture is ok. I know many people use this as the cornerstone of their identity. Personally i prefer diversity, but im sure its okay for a person to feel positive about their heritage. Pride however is another matter, as many of you have pointed out, it implies a superiority and relies on no action of your own. hell its the root of much evil, this pride.
For example. I like many thing about the country where i live, NZ. I like many things about the celts who were my primary ancestors. However if i took it to the level of pride, i beleive it would only breed ignorance, arrogance and prejudice.

 

[nads]

Well, I'm a kiwi living in Melbourne, it's hard to say the least. Instead of arguing against your POV Kyk, as I agree with it, let me try to explain your g/f's position (and get you out of the doghouse ).
People from different backgrounds can never fully understand each others culture and will always feel uneasy when faced with individuals not like themselves. Obviously you cannot behave like you would toward a friend, or even a stranger of your own culture. Generally, people will be tentative and behave restrictedly, but will hold a fear inside them of danger from deception, wrongdoing or misunderstanding.
So, what do you do? You stand proud to show you won't tolerate anything untoward. You could say its almost instinctual to exhibit pride in a first encounter with something as alien as another culture so as not to invite domination, ridicule or abuse. The behaviour has survival value and is shown in all mammal and bird species.
Even moreso when you live as an immigrant within the culture you face, which is the situation your g/f is in, were she not proud, she would invite derision upon her and her culture through a lasting negative first impression coupled with stereotyping of herself onto other Romanians (which then affect first impressions of like ethnicity leading to the downward spiral of racism).
Plus, she does this everyday as her ethnicity is seen constantly by Canadians who must be assumed to have no prior knowledge of Romanians, just to keep up appearances. This constant 'on-guardedness' can ingrain itself leading to the impression immigrants hate, or belittle the people they chose to live with. How illogical would that be? Hating or feeling superior to the people whose country you embrace? It can also lead to a greater pride in her country than if she wasn't surrounded by another culture.
Conversely, she might really dislike your culture for the same reasons - having too many negative first impressions with Canadians and attribute that to the homogenisation of Western culture.
Hope this helps!

 

[C12H17N2O4P]

I don't see anything wrong with taking pride in your country. You are your country. No matter how counter mainstream thinking you are, no matter what anarchist ideals you cry out, no matter what socialist ideas you shout. America is a country with many different views. It's up to you to take pride in yourself FIRST, I think it's natural to take pride in your country second as you realize maybe you're more connected to it as you thought.

 

[C12H17N2O4P]

I think a lot of people confuse taking pride in their government with taking pride in your country. They're definitely different.

 

[Luminary]

C12H17N2O4P:

You are your country. No matter how counter mainstream thinking you are, no matter what anarchist ideals you cry out, no matter what socialist ideas you shout. America is a country with many different views.
So, according to you, whatever views I have, are also America's?
"America is a country with many different views."
Please define 'America' for me.
What is it exactly that shares all of my views and binds it with everyone else's?
What is it exactly that makes me my country (besides a bunch of papers)?
Your statement above is full of contradiction.
I don't know if you meant what you said or you accidentally implied things or I accidentally misinterpreted and inferred things, but I am willing to hear a more elaborate explanantion of your post so that I may better understand your actual idea.
Please do so, if you have the time.

I think a lot of people confuse taking pride in their government with taking pride in your country. They're definitely different.
Could you please explain what the difference is? Is taking pride in your country taking pride in the actual land and borders of it?
Is it taking pride in the people who live in it?
Is taking pride in it's acheivements?
what?
Namaste! :D
-Luminary
[ 06 November 2002: Message edited by: Luminary ]

 

[Cyc]

I think a lot of people confuse taking pride in their government with taking pride in your country. They're definitely different.
As far as I'm concerned, government is the only thing that separates one Country from another. Government dictates the laws, maintains the borders and waves the flag.

 

[psychoblast]

C12H17N2O4P:
I think you are just using very loose language, without really thinking of the nuances. It is like you are using "take pride in" as synonymous with "value" or "like" or "love."
You can like, love and value America without taking "pride" in being American. Because these are NOT synonyms. You take PRIDE in your ability to play the piano, in your skill at basketball, in your ability to solve math problems, whatever. These things you accomplish. But you cannot take pride in America. That is like taking pride in a really good episode of the Simpsons that you happened to watch.
Unless you actually MADE America great, or wrote that episode of the Simpsons, pride is a misnomer.
Anyway, I would bet money that when you hear some one say, "I'm not proud to be American" you hear "I don't love America" or "I don't like America." Hence the reply of people like you is always, "Then why don't you leave?" Again, confusing pride with affection.
~psychoblast~

 

[C12H17N2O4P]

I am a loose linguist, that's for sure. I don't much care for the fine print.
Try not to be so cynical and you will be better off.
Government does not equal country, you'd have to be a dumbass to think that. What the beaurocrats are doing is hardly a good representation of a country (if you think this is wrong take a trip to a country where government's hold on the civilians is very limited, i.e. out of control). Country does not equal borders and the physical land. The people that live in that physical border and claim to be from that physical border is the heart and guts of a country. Maybe it's just hard for americans not to accept their countrymen because of the variance of race (countries of one primary dominant race usually have no problem even defining what patriotism is, it just is) and/or the wide variance on thoughts of how the country should be (note I am not talking about government here).
Someone that knows a little more about anarchy step in and explain this concept, I am at a loss of words in how to clairify this.

 

[C12H17N2O4P]

I think you are just using very loose language, without really thinking of the nuances. It is like you are using "take pride in" as synonymous with "value" or "like" or "love."
I am a citizen of the united states of america. I am a peice of a working, albeit somewhat broken, machine. My existence influences directly on the country's image (however great or small). By me existing in this country, proclaiming citizenship, I am molding and shaping the image of America. I've wrote various letters to political figures, protested a thing or two, started a couple clubs in the community, volunteered at a mental hospital, built a section of the AT...and on and on and on...I take pride in my input. Simple as that.

 

[nads]

Taking pride in one's country IS different to giving affection to a country. Though Giving proud admiration is synonymous with giving affection.
It's a give&take thing you get pride in what you do, your country gets pride it what it as a country achieves and then is passed on to the people who make up the country allowing them to take some personal pride in what the country achieves, dependant on their role within it.
When your country commits acts of atrocity, then you are in a bind - you take personal pride everyday by paying taxes, helping ladies across the street etc, but lose it instantly when you hear about your government's actions. Bad for moral.
Kyk - The governments of countries would not exist without the people.

 

[C12H17N2O4P]

This is, once again, crumbled down to an argument over semantics.
-Without people there would be no active government.
-Without people there would be no country, it would just be land.
I don't see how someone can argue that government is country and at the same time refute that country is NOT people. Does that seem absurd to anybody else? You cannot think of government as inert. We have a living government (i.e. it is changing because of, uhoh heres that word again, people).
Everything comes from people. Without people there would be nobody thinking the thoughts, constructing the borders, penning down the laws, etc etc. Country is the people that claim to belong to it. It is as simple as that.
Taking pride in your input to your country is to take pride in your country. It's hard to just lay the blanket statement down, "who is proud of america?" Of course there are going to be flaws you will point out, maybe even MAJOR, HUGE atrocities that you want to distance yourself as far from as possible. Maybe this is the root of why some so called educated people find distate in patriotism.