Bupe Precipitated Withdrawals

[skylines7]

*I have a very big H habit. Not trying to brag.

Went into detox for about 11 days off 2 bundle per day habit.

Left rehab and started using again, for about 2 weeks.

Shot 8mg of bupe and went into precipitated withdrawal (holy fuck, the worst experience I have EVER had - by far).

All the sudden, my tolerance seems like it is lower, and I feel like I don't have as heavy of a physical dependence as I normally do.

The precipitated withdrawals were yesterday morning, about 36 hours ago.

So my question: Precipitated Withdrawals knock all the dope of the receptors right? So am I able to walk away a free man?

Just confused...please enlighten me BL

 

[Euphorogenesis]

Well, not exactly. It might knock the H off the receptors but fills them with both naloxone and buprenorphine. Sure it could be that the precipitated withdrawel has reduced your tolerance somewhat so if you were going to quit there's no time like the present.

 

[pill_billy]

Shot 8mg of bupe and went into precipitated withdrawal (holy fuck, the worst experience I have EVER had - by far).

dude i can only imagine what 8mg did... i was dumb enough to slam 1mg one night i couldnt score and holy fuck.... i literally thought i was dieing... my eyes got all yellow for a few hours and shit, def scariest thing ever went through on drugs... i cant speak to the walking away part cause i went n got high in the morning but all that was a few months ago and i gota few weeks clean now... good luck tho man... mabe look into trying a clonodine patch for stopping, that shit helpes out so much w the WD

 

[dirzted]

Well, not exactly. It might knock the H off the receptors but fills them with both naloxone and buprenorphine. Sure it could be that the precipitated withdrawel has reduced your tolerance somewhat so if you were going to quit there's no time like the present.

Actually, it's only bupe, since it has a higher binding affinity. Regardless though, yes bupe is still in your receptors, so your highs will be slightly weakened by the blocking effect, but not by much since you only used it once. You should be able to fix just the same after like 48 hours from your shot, butttt it will be at the same tolerance.

For withdrawal wise, AFTER precipitated withdrawal, I'm not really sure, I'd assume it would just be the same, maybe a little catalyzed by the bupe but not by that much.

 

[cj]

I think the bupe feeling your receptors is why your not filling significant withdrawal.

 

[Euphorogenesis]

Actually, it's only bupe, since it has a higher binding affinity.

I am aware of the binding affinities, but if what you're saying is true then there would be no point in adding naloxone to bupe to create suboxone. Besides if you're just replacing heroin molecules with buprenorphine molecules you should not get precipitated withdrawel. Since you're simply substituting opiate A for opiate B.

 

[DuckieMan]

I am aware of the binding affinities, but if what you're saying is true then there would be no point in adding naloxone to bupe to create suboxone. Besides if you're just replacing heroin molecules with buprenorphine molecules you should not get precipitated withdrawel. Since you're simply substituting opiate A for opiate B.

I don't think you understand how it works, the naloxone really is there for almost no reason. As for precipitated withdrawal, it seems like it strips the opiates off the receptors, then there's some time it takes to finally get the bupe in there even when ived. I've had precipitated withdrawal many times, its not a myth like you seem to be alluding to. Bupe is only a partial agonist heroin is a full, so maybe that's why it happens? I've never looked into the exact reason myself though, just know its about 10xs worse than normal wd for me.

 

[skylines7]

Thanks so much for your comments everyone. I've been reading BL for years and it's amazing all the knowledge I have gained here.

Here is what is still going on: I used to bang 4 bags at a time. My morning shot would be 4 bags, followed immediately by a 3 bag shot. So I start my days normally with 7 bags.

After this precipitated withdrawal event, I do a 2 bag shot and get the same effects as before, and I don't feel the need to do another shot to get off E. This is a huge drop off. The stamp I am getting is the same, and my girlfriend says it's the same quality - her dosage hasn't changed at all. So I know it has to do with me and my body chemistry and not the dope just being stronger.

I'm still confused as to why my body is reacting like this. Any ideas?

 

[DuckieMan]

Thanks so much for your comments everyone. I've been reading BL for years and it's amazing all the knowledge I have gained here.

Here is what is still going on: I used to bang 4 bags at a time. My morning shot would be 4 bags, followed immediately by a 3 bag shot. So I start my days normally with 7 bags.

After this precipitated withdrawal event, I do a 2 bag shot and get the same effects as before, and I don't feel the need to do another shot to get off E. This is a huge drop off. The stamp I am getting is the same, and my girlfriend says it's the same quality - her dosage hasn't changed at all. So I know it has to do with me and my body chemistry and not the dope just being stronger.

I'm still confused as to why my body is reacting like this. Any ideas?

Keep that mindset and your good. Don't keep digging if its working for you.

 

[Euphorogenesis]

I don't think you understand how it works,

I have a problem with that statement. Because you've just admitted you don't know how it works either here:

never looked into the exact reason myself though

Anyway...

the naloxone really is there for almost no reason.

How do you know? You've just admitted you haven't looked into it.

it seems like it strips the opiates off the receptors, then there's some time it takes to finally get the bupe in there even when ived

A substance can only kick another substance out of the receptor by binding to that receptor.

I've had precipitated withdrawal many times, its not a myth like you seem to be alluding to.

I never said it was a myth.

Bupe is only a partial agonist heroin is a full, so maybe that's why it happens? I've , just know its about 10xs worse than normal wd for me.

This is the most sense you've made so far. As i recall, when both a full agonist and partial agonist are present, the partial agonist acts as a competitive antagonist, competing with the full agonist for receptor occupancy and producing a decrease in the receptor activation. However to say naloxone does not play a part in this process in unsubstantiated to say the least. I will acquiesce when it comes to my argument about buprenorphine alone not causing any precipetated withdrawel, i didn't think that through, but that does not change the fact that the naloxone is there for a reason.

Sorry to be argumentative but i like to be precise about things.

 

[DuckieMan]

Stupid phone

 

[DuckieMan]

It's the bupe alone that causes pw. There's a reason subutex which doesn't have nalaxone causes it also. All I was getting at was I didn't k ow the exact words and science behind why bupe does it, I tried in my laymen terms to describe what I know.

 

[crzydiamond]

Precipitated wd can be caused by suboxone or subutex. Its the bupe that causes it. The naloxone has nothing to do with it. (Naloxone is not active orally, and it's not active combined with bupe due to the binding affinities. It's purpose seems to be giving doctors comfort in prescribing a month at a time thinking no one will divert it for IV use)

The bupe knocks the full agonist heroin off the receptor. But bupe is only a partial agonist so it doesn't fill that receptor perfectly, so to speak. If the person takes bupe too soon this happens, leading to instant withdrawal. Only when those receptors no longer have the heroin attached will filling them partiall with bupe make them feel better instead of worse

For all intents and purposes, the naloxone in suboxone is inactive. Some people claim to get headaches from it, so they may react slightly to it. It doesn't pull the opiate off like doing just naloxone would, cause the bupe will do that instead. They pretty much put it in to prevent IV abuse, and even some sub doctors aren't educated to the facts that its not possible for naloxone to have any effect when combined with bupe

Just curious--what would lead you to believe the naloxone is active?

 

[mostly-human]

I have a problem with that statement. Because you've just admitted you don't know how it works either here:



Anyway...



How do you know? You've just admitted you haven't looked into it.



A substance can only kick another substance out of the receptor by binding to that receptor.



I never said it was a myth.



This is the most sense you've made so far. As i recall, when both a full agonist and partial agonist are present, the partial agonist acts as a competitive antagonist, competing with the full agonist for receptor occupancy and producing a decrease in the receptor activation. However to say naloxone does not play a part in this process in unsubstantiated to say the least. I will acquiesce when it comes to my argument about buprenorphine alone not causing any precipetated withdrawel, i didn't think that through, but that does not change the fact that the naloxone is there for a reason.

Sorry to be argumentative but i like to be precise about things.

He is mostly right (especially about the naloxone, it's a marketing ploy, bupe really does have a higher affinity, that's why people can slam it and get high. I believe it causes PW because it's only a partial agonist (and partial antagonist). So it doesn't satisfy the receptor in the same way, there's some great articles out there about it. Point being though, even if you take bupe on it's on (or in a formula without naloxone, such as subutex) it can/will still cause PW if taken early. it's definitely an action of the bupe itself. It's very well documented.

 

[Euphorogenesis]

Just curious--what would lead you to believe the naloxone is active?

I figured naloxone would be a more effective antagonist than buprenorphine since i figured a pure antagonist would be more effective at blocking opiate receptors than a partial agonist combined with a full agonist. You can't tell me partial agonism when a full agonist is present causing antagonism isn't counter-intuitive right?

 

[dirzted]

I am aware of the binding affinities, but if what you're saying is true then there would be no point in adding naloxone to bupe to create suboxone. Besides if you're just replacing heroin molecules with buprenorphine molecules you should not get precipitated withdrawel. Since you're simply substituting opiate A for opiate B.

As others have said it is pretty much in there for marketing reasons. Bupe outcompetes naloxone no contest at the mu opioid receptors, therefore the naloxone contained in the pill cannot become active. The reason it is specific to IV use is that naloxone isn't even bioavailable through sublingual administration, so they can say that when you IV it, naloxone is ingested.

I understand it is confusing and it's hard to take people on BL's word for it but really, a shit ton of people who shoot suboxone would tell you otherwise, not to mention my own sub doc calls it bullshit and openly admits it's a marketing ploy, again referencing the shit ton of addicts he had over the years who he prescribed naloxone formulations who still shot it and were fine (well relatively based solely on the possible effects of naloxone), now he just scribes tex' since it's so much cheaper and helps someone down on their luck out tremendously cost wise.

 

[when I dream]

I figured naloxone would be a more effective antagonist than buprenorphine since i figured a pure antagonist would be more effective at blocking opiate receptors than a partial agonist combined with a full agonist. You can't tell me partial agonism when a full agonist is present causing antagonism isn't counter-intuitive right?

Naloxone actually is not an antagonist at your opioid receptors, it is a pure opioid antagonist which means it acts directly on the opioid in your body (I.e. Heroin for example when someone is treated for an OD) and deactivates it. However, I do know for a fact that many people successfully get recreational effects by shooting suboxone, so it would seem the naloxone has trouble antagonizing bupe.

 

[mostly-human]

Naloxone actually is not an antagonist at your opioid receptors, it is a pure opioid antagonist which means it acts directly on the opioid in your body (I.e. Heroin for example when someone is treated for an OD) and deactivates it. However, I do know for a fact that many people successfully get recreational effects by shooting suboxone, so it would seem the naloxone has trouble antagonizing bupe.

I think you may be a little confused. This is from the WIKI (other sources have similar information, if you're one of those wiki-snobs that like to abuse people for using Wikipedia as a source):

"Naloxone has an extremely high affinity for μ-opioid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS). Naloxone is a μ-opioid receptor (MOR) competitive antagonist, and its rapid blockade of those receptors often produces rapid onset of withdrawal symptoms. Naloxone also has an antagonist action, though with a lower affinity, at κ- (KOR) and δ-opioid receptors (DOR). Unlike other opioid receptor antagonists, naloxone is essentially a pure antagonist with no agonist properties. If administered in the absence of concomitant opioid use, no functional pharmacological activity occurs (except the inability for the body to combat pain naturally), in contrast to direct opiate agonists, which elicit opiate withdrawal symptoms of both opiate-tolerant and opiate-naive patients."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naloxone

 

[Euphorogenesis]

Pretty interesting guys.

 

[when I dream]

I could be confused it's definitely possible. This information is how I best understood it when my doctor was explaining the difference between naloxone and naltrexone. Not too long ago I was prescribed naltrexone to help alcohol cravings, but being a past opioid addict as well I was interested in the substances. How I understood him naltrexone is an opioid receptor antagonist and naloxone is an opioid antagonist. But that could easily be an over-simplification and I could be wrong. Apologies.