Post loading?

[cancle]

This is probably an incredibly stupid question....but, I am intrested to know if post-loading with 5-htp just helps with the comedown, or if it actually reduces the amount of 'ware and tare' your brain suffers.

 

[Duotone]

Just helps with the comedown, makes it easier to sleep, and helps with the Tuesday blues. It will do nothing to prevent neurotoxicity. I postload with 500mg of alpha lipoic acid(a potent antioxident), and paxil to mitigate neurotoxicity.

 

[BigTrancer]

Try the announcement at the top of the main Australian forum page. It's really clearly entitled:
***** EVERYONE READ: Info, Posting Guidelines and FAQ *****
There's plenty of information in there, corroborating the usefulness of 5-HTP as a pre-load, post-load, AND some evidence postulated to suggest that the SSRI action of 5-HTP helps to reduce the neurotoxicity caused by consumption of MDMA.
Check the facts, learn it for yourself and go to the original sources for information where possible.

BigTrancer
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Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.

 

[Straylight]

Duotone- I'm interested to know. Is there any scientific evidence to suggest that antioxidants reduce neurotoxicity? Given that there is no firm evidence of MDMA-induced in vivo toxicity in humans (the only experimental evidence is in rats), I'd find this pretty hard to believe.
Personally I'm a fan of 5HTP and as BigTrancer suggests, there is some evidence (and a logical theory) to suggest that this may reduce neurotoxicity if, indeed, it is occurring in humans.
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"You drive," he said. "I think there's something wrong with me." - Hunter S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"

 

[Duotone]

The studies that I read were done on rats, how this correlates to human neurotoxicity isn't fully known. Given that I'll take my chances with ALA and a SSRI. The following link is all that I could find at the moment butI'll post follow ups as I find them.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/articles/references.cgi?ID=1146

 

[Duotone]

Here's the one on ALA,
http://mdma.net/alphalip.html

 

[Duotone]

Straylight, is there any scientific evidence that shows 5-htp to be useful in a neuroprotective role? I'm not saying that it isn't useful or that it doesn't have it's place. I read through all of the faqs, as painful as it was, but couldn't find any scientific evidence supporting your claim. I found plenty of sources to buy 5-htp, personal opinions, and testimonials. If I missed it, please show me a study.

 

[BigTrancer]

What I said in my previous post not quite accurate. I stated that 5-HTP has an SSRI action, but it would be more correct to say that it is useful to help your brain synthesise 5-HT (serotonin).
However, I have a couple of references which suggest that 5-HTP may be a more effective post-load to minimise neurotoxicity than SSRI antidepressants.
Here's a couple of things worth a mention that I found in a quick search:

MDMA Neurotoxicity Research: Methodological Concerns
Charles Grob, M.D.
Considerable media attention has been given recently to investigators purporting to demonstrate neurotoxic brain damage in humans who had self- administered large amounts of the polymorphous drug Ecstasy. There is insufficient evidence, however, to extrapolate these findings to single dose effects of MDMA. Furthermore, methodological weaknesses in the humans studies call into question data interpretation attempting to assert that MDMA damages neurons after single or even a few multiple doses. Although animals given large dosages of MDMA appear to undergo extensive loss of 5-HT axons and terminals, evidence for functional sequelae has been scant. There is no evidence demonstrating conclusively that therapeutic doses of pure MDMA given under controlled conditions lead to neuron degeneration or that users who experimented only with a few modest doses of MDMA have suffered any sort of neurological deficit.
Full article at: http://maps.org/news-letters/v09n3/09303gro.html

... OK, but it's better to be safe than sorry, right? Can 5-HTP help to stave off any neurotoxicity in the same way that SSRI antidepressants do?
Intuitively, it seems possible. From the EVERYONE READ FAQ:

In animal studies, it is hypothesized that neurotoxicity from MDMA is due to the following process. I'll put it in layman's terms.
1] MDMA amps up serotonin and dopamine use.
2] Serotonin runs out
3] Dopamine goes where serotonin normally would
4] Altered dopamine molecules cause damage to nerves
Therefore by preventing the depletion of serotonin you minimize the amount of oxidized dopamine radicals that feed into pre-axonic serotonin terminals and cause axonic trimming.

This seems to suggest that combining anti-oxidants with substances to either slow down the reuptake of serotonin, or produce more of it (but not both... search for "serotonin syndrome" if you want to know why) can help to avoid the kinds of neurotoxic effects displayed in animal studies where ridiculously high doses were administered.
Oh wait... search and ye shall find...

Excerpt from:
"THE ECSTASY MANIFESTO: The Safe Use of MDMA"
Richard C. Kaufman Ph.D.
...
Protective countermeasures can diminish the potential adverse effects of MDMA. They include taking neuroprotective antioxidants to deactivate MDMA-generated toxic oxygen species; preventing hyperthermic stress damage from MDMA; taking 2-AEP (2-aminoethanol phosphate) to increase neurotransmissions and prevent cytotoxic destruction of the membranes of neurons; using SSRIs to block MDMA neurotoxicity and lower MDMA's psychoactivity; ingesting the body's precursor of serotonin, 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), to counteract a serotonin deficiency and increase MDMA's psychoactivity; improving neural bioenergetics to prevent failure of self-protective mechanisms; and establishing a safe MDMA dosage regimen.
...
There are two practical methods to increase serotonin activity: (1) increase the natural production of serotonin by ingesting 5-hydroxytryptophan; or (2) increase serotonin activity with SSRIs by interfering with the natural process of serotonin reuptake. Unfortunately, when the activity of the enzyme tryptophan hydroxylase is diminished by MDMA, serotonin synthesis diminishes and the actions of SSRIs may not be as effective. Plus, the SSRIs have a long list of potential side effects.
...
This can be found at:http://globalundergroundnet.com/ecstasy.manifesto.html

I reckon that's good enough for me. And, if you want further information, there is a list of 233 references in the above paper.
BigTrancer

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Load universe into cannon. Aim at brain. Shoot.

 

[Duotone]

Thanks Big Trancer, that's exactly what I was looking for. I stand corrected, and for good measure here's one more study on 5-htp:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/articles/references.cgi?ID=972
On my way to the health store.

 

[cancle]

thankyou.

 

[[Matt]]

Ok so which of these anti oxidents do you ppl think are most affective? Could i just buy them in a health food shop?

 

[BigTrancer]

Probably your best bet will be Vitamin E. It's a stronger anti-oxidant than Vitamin C, and it's also available in health food shops, supermarkets and pharmacies.
BigTrancer

 

[luro]

Alpha-lipoic acid is the most potent. I haven't seen it in health stores though, you might have to import it.

 

[Straylight]

Interesting thread! Perhaps we should all be on combo SSRI + antioxidants, or 5HTP + antioxidants. (Duotone, I'm assuming Paxil is paroxetine or a similar SSRI).
One thing does worry me about the ALA study. Although the doses of MDMA used on the rats were massive (20mg/Kg, or about 1400mg equivalent dose for a 70Kg human), so were the doses of ALA administered (100mg/Kg, or about 7g of ALA for the same person).
That's a lotta antioxidant!
My apologies for not providing the articles for U Duotone, but I think BigTrancer covered my ass.
------------------
"You drive," he said. "I think there's something wrong with me." - Hunter S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas"

 

[ghetts]

One thing to remember with doses is the huge difference in metabolism between humans and lab rats, you'll find in most of the references pointed out above that a really high dose for a rat can be correlated to a high recreational dose for a human...
in other words don't eat your ALA caps like breakfast cereal!

 

[Biscuit]

I think the other thing about ALA is that it is both water and fat soluble.
This is the best of both worlds, as it can easily go around the bloodstream and i presume can cross the blood brain barrier (BBB) rather well.
C does the former better, E does the latter better; ALA good at both!
As we all have to order 5-HTP over the net; y not add ALA to your order; cost me less than good vitamin E does here anyway.
This is a side note but: most people with advanced knowledge on the medical forumn really play down the effect of 5-HTP. (generally as a pre-load; it definitely has no equal when it comes to post)
They say that most of the HTP is decarboxylated to serotonin before entering the brain (after this it cant) in the liver and possibly gut.
They say taking carbidopa (sp?) along with HTP is the way to go. It inhibits the decarboxylase enzyme outside of the brain only, as it itself cannot get into the brain. People with Parkinsons disease take a combination of L-DOPA and carbidopa for this reason.
Of course this is not freely available and not viable. So..
This is going to sound silly and i wouldnt do it but what would happen if 5-HTP was snorted, or injected?
Is it feasible that a lot more 5-HTP will absorbed straight into the bloodstream and travel into the brain; before running into any decarboxylase enzymes in the digestive area.
Sounds very bizarre and potentially dangerous but one wonders.
Plus snorting the rice flour in the capsule?
[This message has been edited by Biscuit (edited 30 May 2001).]