Bupe Please... I Need help With Suboxone Taper

[Colmes]

***Note to mods**** I have read, and am very familiar with forum rules, and I dont like repeat threads as much as the next person, but I ask that you please do not combine this with the mega-thread. I have a severe problem with this (Im not comparing my problem with anyone elses, but this isnt a "Can I get high off of sub" Thread. Many people have problems more severe than mine, but to me, this is what I have to live with, and I am very nervous about how to go about this, to me, its a big problem, and that is why I am asking to not put this into the megathread (at least until after I have recieved some good input, Thank you in advance, either way.


Hello everyone and thank you in advance for any help;

I'll make it quick - I used the search engine - no thread has an answer to my specific problem / question.

Firstly, I have used Suboxone (subutex, actually, the first time) to aid in w/d from an Oxy habit. I did not think withdrawls would be that bad - I went from 2.5mg to nothing, and for 3 weeks, it was terrible.

I went to my doctor, who prescribed me tramadol. Tramadol worked in taking away the horrible withdrawl symptoms I was still expieriencing, but it was mainly the "after withdrawl" problems; i.e. Severe depression, and anxiety, and RLS.

I was on Tramadol for 3 months - roughly 200-250mg a day, lets say 250mg daily. All in all, my point, I have not been opiate or opiod free in about 5 months. But, i've been close (I should have waited it out after 3 weeks, I know)

MY QUESTION / Advice Seeking;

I have been off Tramadol (had tried to taper, as i dont like being on a pill that has so many physcological and physical effects on my body, when I am not benefiting at all - I also believe that that medicine, coupled with Nortriptyline, which I have since quit, and gone back on prozac, was raising my blood sugar.

I am now on approx 2mg of Suboxone daily. I know that taking it nasally gives that nice relaxing buzz, and motivation, but have since (for about 5 days) been taking it strictly subligually. I am not looking to get high, im looking to get off opiates.

I have 16mg of Suboxone, may be too much, but thats what I have come across, and it was not cheap, so I want to make it a success this time.

Assuming I am on 2mg of Sub a day-

How do I taper myself, using what I have in

A) the correct manner (i.e., does it matter if you take it insuffuated vs sublingually, theraputically speaking?)

B) Do I take it 2 times a day? upon waking, and right before I go to sleep?

C) What is a correct tapering schedual for me? Again I THANK anyone and everyone who has input; I cant just stop tramadol; i've tried + taking it is something I dont want to do to my body, where months turn into years ect; and I KNOW from prior exp I cant cold turkey sub - I have college, and responsibilities. I also prone to depression, so it really hits hard.

All in all, I would like to know the correct way to take it, what times of day to take it, how much of my 16mg I need to make this as comfortable as possible, and what would my tapering schedual be? I'm sick of being on this stuff, as my mood goes from great to terrible, and, well, for all the other reasons; I feel I can do without it, but want to taper in a mature manner. If you could just do a --------------

-------"Day Time and Number of Take Daily"-------- Format, that would be great, I could easily apply, and understand it.

I have 16mg - If I need less, let me know, if 16mg will just make it more comfortable, and thats your opinion, let me know too. Anyone who has any input [ minus "Why the fuck are you using sub in the first place? - your answer is, to kick my oxycodone to subutex to tramadol habit, is why, and I cant just stop, i've tried].

Thank you VERY much in advance for reading, and anyone who takes the time to just explain this to me, and give their own advice.

Take care.

thing - assuming (we'll say I am on 2mg of suboxone daily, to be relatively comfortable) - and also, brief education on the most effective and medically theraputic way to inject (sublingual(probably the obvious answer) or intra-nasally-where less is needed, but there is a buzz, which kinda feels like abuse))

Note - I also have Clonidine, and Diazapam (lots of tolerance to all benzos) to help along. Thanks.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

2mg a day - here's how you should taper down.

Get a pill crusher, a clean & sterile surface, and some utensils to separate out piles of powder to break up 2mg into smaller doses. 2mg separated into 8 piles yields 0.25mg/pile. 16 piles -> 0.125mg. 32 piles -> 0.0625mg

If you're dosing once a day, you can do it that way, or you can split up your doses into 0.5mg or 0.25mg doses and take it more frequently. However you want to do it.

If you have 16mg..

2mg - day 1
1.5mg - day 2
1.25mg - day 3
1 mg - day 4
1 mg - day 5
0.75mg - day 6
0.75mg - day 7
0.5mg - day 8
0.5mg - day 9
0.5mg - day 10
0.25mg - day 11
0.25mg - day 12
0.25mg - day 13
0.25mg - day 14
0.125mg - day 15-22

At this point, you have 4.25mg left.

You can continue taking 0.125mg/day for 34 days (a whole month) after the first 8 days you're on it. If you want to go to 0.0625mg/day, it would last you 68 days (2 months and 1 week).

This way, the longer you stay at a much lower dose, your WD should be less intense.

Let me know if that's doable for you.

Taking it as recommended (sublingually) is a good idea if you want to quit using opiates as it is the least addictive ROA. However, you can still quit with other ROA's this isn't a problem - but it may be for some. So, it really depends on you, if you find Suboxone addictive when snorted, etc.

 

[Colmes]

Captain Heroin , and I emphasize the Captain, Thank you so very much for your reply. I have read your posts and you are a very knowledgeable member of these boards.

I do find Sub psychologically addictive when snorted. That is, if I get the sublingual dose in, I am physically and mentally fine, but I dont get that little boost in energy, purpose, that buzz, you know exactly what i'm reffering to i'm sure.

I notice; in your plan; the key seems to lie in Low dosage (less than 1mg) over a longer period of time. Thank you very much for that info. I assume this makes the end outcome doable as far as discomfort goes - staying on a low dose, slowly lowering it even more, over an extended period, until you're off.

I will be taking it Sublingually, because, while it provides some sort of mood lift - it is NOT instant [like insuffuation provides] there is no 'buzz' and its not an addictive feeling. I feel comfortable with the plan you have laid out, and will copy and print it. the temptation will be much less if I make a practice out of only taking it sublingually.

I have a Gram Scale; which I use primarilly for my side job; I am a student, and a jeweler, so I deal with some precious metals on the gram level. also measures in what would be 100mg, 200mg 300mg ect ect, but no lesser increments.

I have a pill crusher, a digital scale, and will just have to become inventive when precicely measuring out the doses that go into the 0.0625 [i know being as precise as possible is a good thing]

If you have any tips as to dividing the pill safely they are more than welcome.

My thanks to you is not superficial, I have been seeking solid info for awhile, again thank you SO much. If you dont mind, or, are not busy, shoot me a pm, otherwise, I wont intrude on your privacy and keep it to the thread. But again, I appreciate it.

1 problem I think everyone probably has - how to efficiently sublingually take Orange-Tang Flavored powder without your saliva overflowing - other meds like clonazapam are easy to sublingually take, this can be tricky, haha.

If anyone has any comments, or if you, captain, have any comments on what I said (if its all correct, ect) post away!

I see I have 4.25mg left - I dont want this to be longer drawn out than it must be. I know taking a minute dose for an extended period, once I reach that point, is an option, but i'll take the discomfort, which I know wont be anywhere near the *horror* of full blow cold turkey bupeprenorphine w/d (after 2 1/2 months or so) I slammed a table, busted my knucked, had horrible GI issues, restless leg that never ended, nausea (no vomiting, surprising) intense depression, anxiety, cold sweats, you name it. I cant do that again, now that the college semester started!

Thank you again everyone, Captain H. I really truly appreciate your advice, and will follow it.



EDIT - I had to read several times to fully comprehend. having that extra 4.25mg seems like it will come in handy, as you said; the longer one takes the suboxone at the lower and lowest levels (in my case, 0.125mg, and 0.0625mg, or.. 0.625 Micrograms, or is it .0625 Micrograms? hehe, god knows how i will precicely measure that; perhaps it is time to invest in a pharmacy, or chemistry lab grade scale for this one. I know the w/d - drives a sane man mad, and a mad man....really mad.

Thank you again.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Captain Heroin , and I emphasize the Captain, Thank you so very much for your reply. I have read your posts and you are a very knowledgeable member of these boards.

I do find Sub psychologically addictive when snorted. That is, if I get the sublingual dose in, I am physically and mentally fine, but I dont get that little boost in energy, purpose, that buzz, you know exactly what i'm reffering to i'm sure.

I notice; in your plan; the key seems to lie in Low dosage (less than 1mg) over a longer period of time. Thank you very much for that info. I assume this makes the end outcome doable as far as discomfort goes - staying on a low dose, slowly lowering it even more, over an extended period, until you're off.

I will be taking it Sublingually, because, while it provides some sort of mood lift - it is NOT instant [like insuffuation provides] there is no 'buzz' and its not an addictive feeling. I feel comfortable with the plan you have laid out, and will copy and print it. the temptation will be much less if I make a practice out of only taking it sublingually.

I know what you mean, and I'm glad you're going to be using the sublingual method - it lasts the longest.

I have a pill crusher, a digital scale, and will just have to become inventive when precicely measuring out the doses that go into the 0.0625 [i know being as precise as possible is a good thing]

If you have any tips as to dividing the pill safely they are more than welcome.

The most "accurate" way to do it would be to dissolve 2mg of crushed up Suboxone in a ML of water (or the max amount of ML's a syringe you can get can hold) and then just squirt out however much you need and use an oral syringe. Water dosing is the best way to evenly distribute the material and measure it out. 2mg -> 1mL (which is doable) => 1 unit=0.02mg. 25units=0.5mg, 12.5units=0.25mg, 6units=0.125mg, 3units=0.0625mg.

Honestly, water dosing with an oral syringe (one without a needle that you can buy OTC) would be the easiest way to dose.

My thanks to you is not superficial, I have been seeking solid info for awhile, again thank you SO much. If you dont mind, or, are not busy, shoot me a pm, otherwise, I wont intrude on your privacy and keep it to the thread. But again, I appreciate it.

I'll shoot you a PM.

1 problem I think everyone probably has - how to efficiently sublingually take Orange-Tang Flavored powder without your saliva overflowing - other meds like clonazapam are easy to sublingually take, this can be tricky, haha.

What you should do is this - if you are waterdosing, use just a little bit of high-proof alcohol - this will help the active ingredient get through the membranes quicker, and you can just spit out the alcohol (I don't like drinking at all so that's what I'd do). Plus, it will boost the BA, so tapering might be easier with alcohol.

I see I have 4.25mg left - I dont want this to be longer drawn out than it must be. I know taking a minute dose for an extended period, once I reach that point, is an option, but i'll take the discomfort, which I know wont be anywhere near the *horror* of full blow cold turkey bupeprenorphine w/d (after 2 1/2 months or so) I slammed a table, busted my knucked, had horrible GI issues, restless leg that never ended, nausea (no vomiting, surprising) intense depression, anxiety, cold sweats, you name it. I cant do that again, now that the college semester started!

Thank you again everyone, Captain H. I really truly appreciate your advice, and will follow it.

Yeah, if you don't want to draw it out as long as possible, then you can stay at 0.25mg/day or 0.125mg/day, whatever you think you can do. I just listed some even lower numbers just in case you find that it would be helpful.

 

[Colmes]

I know what you mean, and I'm glad you're going to be using the sublingual method - it lasts the longest.


The most "accurate" way to do it would be to dissolve 2mg of crushed up Suboxone in a ML of water (or the max amount of ML's a syringe you can get can hold) and then just squirt out however much you need and use an oral syringe. Water dosing is the best way to evenly distribute the material and measure it out. 2mg -> 1mL (which is doable) => 1 unit=0.02mg. 25units=0.5mg, 12.5units=0.25mg, 6units=0.125mg, 3units=0.0625mg.

Honestly, water dosing with an oral syringe (one without a needle that you can buy OTC) would be the easiest way to dose.


I'll shoot you a PM.


What you should do is this - if you are waterdosing, use just a little bit of high-proof alcohol - this will help the active ingredient get through the membranes quicker, and you can just spit out the alcohol (I don't like drinking at all so that's what I'd do). Plus, it will boost the BA, so tapering might be easier with alcohol.


Yeah, if you don't want to draw it out as long as possible, then you can stay at 0.25mg/day or 0.125mg/day, whatever you think you can do. I just listed some even lower numbers just in case you find that it would be helpful.

I never even thought of using a needle-less syringe, to create the water/suboxone solution; as that is a very accurate way of measuring your dosage. Also, adding high proof alcohol I wasnt familiar with - I know of tinctures and such, I didnt know it could be applied to this medication. The fact that it increases BA makes it an option to definitely consider, and yeah, in the early morning, the less alcohol the better.

Also - thank you very much for the private message, I will certainly be taking advantage of your knowledge (if you dont mind) and asking [not too many] questions

One final Q - I hate the shape of the 8mg suboxone, its great for someone who takes 8mg, or 4, but anything under, and trying to measure anything precicely becomes more complicated than it should - and has to be. Then again - a doctor would give me 2mg pills, so, beggers cant be choosers. I have cut up the pieces in 1 mg Pieces (to the very best of my ability) 4mg is easy, 2mg easy, 1mg you start to to have some deviation; is there any last tip you can give me for eyeing a 1mg piece? or a 2mg piece? - It just worries me because at the end of the taper, i'm dealing with such small amounts, it shows that a small amount does matter. Weather that is more important toward the end (while taking 0.125mg) than it is while taking 1.25mg (for instance you take 1.3mg, or 1.2, 1.15mg ect). I will also send this to you in a PM. I dont want to clog the boards too much. Thank you so much again for extending you help to me.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Also, adding high proof alcohol I wasnt familiar with - I know of tinctures and such, I didnt know it could be applied to this medication. The fact that it increases BA makes it an option to definitely consider, and yeah, in the early morning, the less alcohol the better.

You don't actually consume the alcohol - you can spit it out. The idea is it's such a small amount - it's like 1/10 of a shot, or even less. So even if you swallow it, it shouldn't do much except for potentiate the buprenorphine only slightly. However, I would spit it out, I don't like the way alcohol "feels" to be honest.

One final Q - I hate the shape of the 8mg suboxone, its great for someone who takes 8mg, or 4, but anything under, and trying to measure anything precicely becomes more complicated than it should - and has to be. Then again - a doctor would give me 2mg pills, so, beggers cant be choosers. I have cut up the pieces in 1 mg Pieces (to the very best of my ability) 4mg is easy, 2mg easy, 1mg you start to to have some deviation; is there any last tip you can give me for eyeing a 1mg piece? or a 2mg piece? - It just worries me because at the end of the taper, i'm dealing with such small amounts, it shows that a small amount does matter. Weather that is more important toward the end (while taking 0.125mg) than it is while taking 1.25mg (for instance you take 1.3mg, or 1.2, 1.15mg ect). I will also send this to you in a PM. I dont want to clog the boards too much. Thank you so much again for extending you help to me.

It's cool, I'll discuss this with you in a PM.

I'll talk to you there man.

 

[drug struggler]

One final Q - I hate the shape of the 8mg suboxone, its great for someone who takes 8mg, or 4, but anything under, and trying to measure anything precicely becomes more complicated than it should - and has to be. Then again - a doctor would give me 2mg pills, so, beggers cant be choosers. I have cut up the pieces in 1 mg Pieces (to the very best of my ability) 4mg is easy, 2mg easy, 1mg you start to to have some deviation; is there any last tip you can give me for eyeing a 1mg piece? or a 2mg piece? - It just worries me because at the end of the taper, i'm dealing with such small amounts, it shows that a small amount does matter. Weather that is more important toward the end (while taking 0.125mg) than it is while taking 1.25mg (for instance you take 1.3mg, or 1.2, 1.15mg ect). I will also send this to you in a PM. I dont want to clog the boards too much. Thank you so much again for extending you help to me.

I think this could be pertinent info for the thread, as I've PM'd him nearly the same question...

It's just so hard to (accurately) split those fuckers past 2 mg's

 

[Captain.Heroin]

I would prefer the equivalent # of 2mg pills, but it doesn't really mater as I water/measure anyways.

 

[Colmes]

I think this could be pertinent info for the thread, as I've PM'd him nearly the same question...

It's just so hard to (accurately) split those fuckers past 2 mg's

I know. Terrible shape, with a different diameter throughout the pill. Cap't H has helped me out as far as the specifics; but I will say, they do not make it easy to divide the pill.


and yeah, CH- I too would prefer 4 2mg pills, but this is what was in 'stock'. Damn that pharm company. Easiest would be to own a scale that measures milligrams, and then micrograms, who knows how many hundreds of dollars a scale would cost. But again, thank you for making it as easy as it can be Captain. Goodluck to anyone who is struggling with this, and if anyone has anything to add, cant hurt. I'm sure i'm not the only one with this question; or a similar questions regarding their sub taper, maybe this could help.

 

[tylerwashere]

I dont understand how you took 2.5mg of suboxone, they come in 8mg and 2mg? and you started with that much? Thats almost nothing....for a 6 30mg roxicodone a day habit my doc told me to start with 12mg for a few days, then go to 8 for a month, then 4 and so on. You should be taking more suboxone if you have a serious problem. I think you should also be prescribed more? My script was 30 8mg pills.

Another thing, maybe just stick with taking them the way theyre prescribed, instead of snorting them, since you're really trying to quit i think you should use it the way it's meant to be used, and proven to work. Plus, i've heard its bad to snort subs for some reason? One reason probably being all of the coloring and flavoring in it.

If you are using subutec then i guess you can disregard that, but i'd still start taking it under your tongue...Good luck man,
i wish you the best.

 

[Colmes]

I dont understand how you took 2.5mg of suboxone, they come in 8mg and 2mg? and you started with that much? Thats almost nothing....for a 6 30mg roxicodone a day habit my doc told me to start with 12mg for a few days, then go to 8 for a month, then 4 and so on. You should be taking more suboxone if you have a serious problem. I think you should also be prescribed more? My script was 30 8mg pills.

Another thing, maybe just stick with taking them the way theyre prescribed, instead of snorting them, since you're really trying to quit i think you should use it the way it's meant to be used, and proven to work. Plus, i've heard its bad to snort subs for some reason? One reason probably being all of the coloring and flavoring in it.

If you are using subutec then i guess you can disregard that, but i'd still start taking it under your tongue...Good luck man,
i wish you the best.

Well I do appreciate the last sentence, and appreciate your best wishes.

How did I start with 2.5? Well, you can get 2.5mg out of 8mg.

2.5mg of suboxone is not nothing, i'm not gonna get angry however. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts; Bupe is a powerful medication, which has a very long half-life. It helps heroin acts get off of heroin, any dosage (2.5mg is larger than 1 of their pills) is strong.
Regarding the insuffuation, you're right. I had fun for a few days. You've heard its bad to snort sub? I dont see how or why it would be worse than any other pharm to snort. Color is the least ingredient to worry bout; and i doubt the flavor is either. Do you have anything to site that snorting suboxone is worse than similar medications, such as oxy, or subutex, or, well, any snortable opiate? Is it worse than ritalin, or adderall? Adderall is blue, and has a flavor.

I'm not arguing its healthy to snort any pill, I just dont see why suboxone would be any more harmful on your body.

But yeah, for the past week I havebeen takng it sublingually.

About weather I should be taking MORE sub, considering I'm fine on 1.5-2mg a day, why would I increase? As to why I dont get so much more, I stated I have 16mg, thats it.~

NOTE one reason to insuffuate it; [You dont get high, you get a mood lift] - that is, someone tolerant to opiates. Also, higher Bioavailability. For a pill so expensive, that matters to a lot of people.
Thanks for your post, although, the part about 2.5 mg of sub being "almost nothing" is ...well, to put it nicely, ignorant. I dont need 8mg/day, 16 mg/day 32 mg/day - everyone handles medication, especially one as powerful as bupe, differently. On that note I say good day sir!~

 

[Captain.Heroin]

If you are using subutec then i guess you can disregard that, but i'd still start taking it under your tongue...Good luck man,
i wish you the best.

There's virtually no difference between Suboxone and Subutex - you can sniff, sublingual, shoot, or plug both of them. The naloxone in Suboxone is really all for nothing.

Also, tyler, lower doses of Suboxone can get people with a low opiate tolerance just as effected as a high one. Taking 8mg at a time may work for some and may actually be necessary, but I am taking 0.25mg at a time, about 3 to 4 times a day. That's 1/32 of a 8mg pill for a dose. This means an 8mg pill would last me at least a week if not longer.

NOTE one reason to insuffuate it; [You dont get high, you get a mood lift] - that is, someone tolerant to opiates. Also, higher Bioavailability. For a pill so expensive, that matters to a lot of people.
Thanks for your post, although, the part about 2.5 mg of sub being "almost nothing" is ...well, to put it nicely, ignorant. I dont need 8mg/day, 16 mg/day 32 mg/day - everyone handles medication, especially one as powerful as bupe, differently. On that note I say good day sir!~

It is kind of ignorant, but that's why BL is here so people can learn and all. I definitely stand up for low dose Suboxone - it is wonderful.

Buprenorphine has a very interesting dose/response curve, hence why small doses cna work wonders.

 

[Colmes]

There's virtually no difference between Suboxone and Subutex - you can sniff, sublingual, shoot, or plug both of them. The naloxone in Suboxone is really all for nothing.

Also, tyler, lower doses of Suboxone can get people with a low opiate tolerance just as effected as a high one. Taking 8mg at a time may work for some and may actually be necessary, but I am taking 0.25mg at a time, about 3 to 4 times a day. That's 1/32 of a 8mg pill for a dose. This means an 8mg pill would last me at least a week if not longer.



It is kind of ignorant, but that's why BL is here so people can learn and all. I definitely stand up for low dose Suboxone - it is wonderful.

Buprenorphine has a very interesting dose/response curve, hence why small doses cna work wonders.

Very true, regarding the semi ignorant comment, and I apologize if I was out of line, tyler. But I will say one thing, any medication, any substance, cannot have a blanket statement put over it such as "That is a small amount anyways" It makes light of the other person's problem, and the size of the dosage is all relative to the person's history with that specific drug. Someone may say that they are addicted to 30mg of Ritalin, and they simply cannot stop without an onset of depression, however, you take 120mg of Ritalin a day, so to you, 30 is nothing. But to that person it may be plenty, and 120mg may land them in jail rambling about the injustices of sosciety, or it may make them have a heart attack.

Just careful when judging others and how you perceive the severity of their issue/dosage ect is just an opinion, and may not actually relate to that person.
Goodluck with anything you're dealing with

 

[ejnjgrl822]

i too have just started trying to self detox and its so hellish for me. i had about a 5-6 bag (when conserving) to a 12-15 bag (when money was good) a day habit. i sniffed all my dope. before that i was all into oxys then end of april discovered dope and that was pretty much it for me til now. here and there id get some oxys when i couldnt get d. yeah i know my habit isnt that long and its not that bad but the w/ds have just been killing me. when i ran outta dope tues, weds i went and got a blue with i did around 430 which did almost nothing obviously but keep me from taking my subs so i was up all night restless with some chills and sweats but afraid to take my sub til about 8am. yesterday i took about 2mgs suboxone (didnt feel great but i was afraid to do more because i really want to avoid w'ds from it and i only have about 16 mgs left) and at night i took .5 kpin. i'm picking up some xannies later to help with anxiety and to help me sleep at night. i brought my girl to detox monday and she was the one i had here for me and helped me. now my head races about all the runs we did and going down and getting it and just the whole process. its killing me. i just want my life back. now i have no one. so i was wondering what doses should i be taking to avoid being sick at all costs while weaning off the shit? i'm just scared and i have to be okay and get thru this with the least pain possible.