Plant Based Living

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

It is not hard to participate in animal husbandry in a much better way for the animals. You just have to care and put profits second. Yes it is not the american way which is that profit trumps everything, but it can be effectively changed little by little.

How do you see it as being changed?

 

[Foreigner]

I'd eat meat if I was able to hunt and kill it. However IMO you can't call yourself a compassionate person and eat factory tortured animals. I like meat as a food and I like the way it gives a rock solid energy boost when eaten in moderation. But like I said I've had to forgo it for the most part due to the ethical dilemma.

If everyone who ate meat hunted, the wilderness would be depleted of all wild animal stocks. Though I learned a lot about life and death by participating in hunting, I don't think people are hypocrites for not doing it. In pre-agricultural times, most tribal societies had designated hunters. There were people in tribes who didn't hunt their entire lives because it wasn't their duty, yet those people still needed meat.

Animals have been domesticated for thousands of years in order to meet human need. Though I do agree, factory farmed animals could be treated better.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

If everyone who ate meat hunted, the wilderness would be depleted of all wild animal stocks. Though I learned a lot about life and death by participating in hunting, I don't think people are hypocrites for not doing it. In pre-agricultural times, most tribal societies had designated hunters. There were people in tribes who didn't hunt their entire lives because it wasn't their duty, yet those people still needed meat.

Animals have been domesticated for thousands of years in order to meet human need. Though I do agree, factory farmed animals could be treated better.

I don't think that anyone is a hypocrite for eating meat they didn't kill. My issues are with what I call torture farming methods.

 

[belligerent drunk]

^ you do know why the "torture farming methods" exist though, right? The goal is not to torture animals, but to increase the efficiency at which the meat is produced. People get the wrong idea that humans like to torture animals for fun (some do), but that is not the case. It is about efficiency.

 

[Bagseed]

well, the effect is the same though, no?

I personally don't want to quit eating meat alltogether, but I try to buy it as little as possible (at the moment maybe twice or three times a month); sausage and ham I usually only get via dumpster diving. I believe that eating meat daily is the main problem we have. Imagine if every person who eats meat, cuts down to just once a week. this would already make a huge difference. unfortunately, "what ifs" are pretty useless.

 

[belligerent drunk]

well, the effect is the same though, no?

Please explain how. The effect is exactly what it is - a result of a collection of people growing a certain number of non-human organisms for (mainly) protein intake. It does not matter if you perform a nuclear explosion within a very confined space, such that it obliterates some population of organisms - or does not. The result is essentially the same - you want to get an expected mass of appropriate organic matter (mainly proteins, fats, and carbohydrates) - and that is what matters to humans.

I personally don't want to quit eating meat alltogether, but I try to buy it as little as possible (at the moment maybe twice or three times a month); sausage and ham I usually only get via dumpster diving. I believe that eating meat daily is the main probl
em we have. Imagine if every person who eats meat, cuts down to just once a week. this would already make a huge difference. unfortunately, "what ifs" are pretty useless.

I also ended up not eating meat that much. I just, unconsciously, found that I do not need that much meat. As such, I limited my meat intake to about 100 g/week average, which is fairly low I imagine, and is possible for anyone.

 

[Bagseed]

Please explain how. The effect is exactly what it is - a result of a collection of people growing a certain number of non-human organisms for (mainly) protein intake. It does not matter if you perform a nuclear explosion within a very confined space, such that it obliterates some population of organisms - or does not. The result is essentially the same - you want to get an expected mass of appropriate organic matter (mainly proteins, fats, and carbohydrates) - and that is what matters to humans.



I also ended up not eating meat that much. I just, unconsciously, found that I do not need that much meat. As such, I limited my meat intake to about 100 g/week average, which is fairly low I imagine, and is possible for anyone.

what I mean is that simply by the progress of more efficiency, organisms who have emotional capacity somewhat comparable to us (or at least that's what I believe) have to suffer for their whole short lifes. I am not against eating meat and killing animals for meat, because that's what happens in nature all the time, but I believe that the systematic mistreatment of lifestock is immoral.

I realize that it is systematic, and there is no conspiracy to purposefully torture animals, but what I meant with my initial post is that the outcome, namely animals suffering from cruel circumstances, is fact. and they cannot even relate to those concepts, so saying "it's not on purpose" is meaningless anyway. there needs to be something done about it.

once again, I am not against meat production, but the current way humans eat meat (quantity-wise) is not only completely unsustainable and wreaks havoc on our ecosystem but also disrespectful to our fellow creatures.

 

[belligerent drunk]

^ I'm sorry, that post was made in a very altered state. What I meant to say is that while I generally agree with what you're saying, we also care about ourselves the most. If a human feels the need to get some meat, it will kill an animal and eat it (or figuratively, what happens on farms), and so will many other carni/omnivores - they care about themselves the most.

Also, animals suffer. OK. So what? I believe that the only reason people object to the torturous ways of factory animal farming is because they can sympathize with those kinds of animals, and can imagine what they're going through, and not wishing to go through the same, sometimes out of altruism try to help the animals as well. Lesser organisms don't have the same pain/suffer feedback mechanisms, but I believe that we don't care about them (like small mammals, insects, bacteria which we use for all kinds of purposes, and which suffer/die by the million daily) because we cannot identify with their way of suffering. So with this said, I don't have a problem with efficient plant farming (which includes tremendous death of plants) as I don't have a problem with animal farming, as long as they're fulfilling the purpose of efficient farming, and aren't just for the lols.

 

[Bagseed]

^ I'm sorry, that post was made in a very altered state. What I meant to say is that while I generally agree with what you're saying, we also care about ourselves the most. If a human feels the need to get some meat, it will kill an animal and eat it (or figuratively, what happens on farms), and so will many other carni/omnivores - they care about themselves the most.

no problem, I wasn't offended at all

of course humans are like the other animals in that we take what our instincts tell us to take... but we also have the intellect to reflect on our needs and desires. so I think human empathy is not only a beautiful thing but will also prove necessary in preserving the ecosystem we also live in.

Also, animals suffer. OK. So what? I believe that the only reason people object to the torturous ways of factory animal farming is because they can sympathize with those kinds of animals, and can imagine what they're going through, and not wishing to go through the same, sometimes out of altruism try to help the animals as well. Lesser organisms don't have the same pain/suffer feedback mechanisms, but I believe that we don't care about them (like small mammals, insects, bacteria which we use for all kinds of purposes, and which suffer/die by the million daily) because we cannot identify with their way of suffering. So with this said, I don't have a problem with efficient plant farming (which includes tremendous death of plants) as I don't have a problem with animal farming, as long as they're fulfilling the purpose of efficient farming, and aren't just for the lols.

of course the reason why people are against factory farming is that they relate to the suffering of those animals, and I think this is one of the best things the human mind can do: having empathy for all living things, even when you want to eat them. for me personally, I wouldn't object to intensive insect farming, because I believe that they don't have the same capacity for emotions as mammals (or birds).

I think it is evident that especially mammals feel fear and pain and horror, same as humans do, they just lack the intellect to categorize these things. I have seen lifestock that lives outside, with plenty space (eg dairy cows which can grass on the mountain pastures all summer long) and I have seen lifestock that is confined to small boxes for all their lives with no natural (bad expression I know) stuff to feed on, just soy and grains... and the difference is day and night. yeah it is efficient, but the outcome is not only a product of low quality but also making creatures suffer.

 

[belligerent drunk]

I would also eliminate factory farming if there was some other efficient way of getting the same foodstuffs, perhaps synthetically. But currently reality is not such, and while I do my part in keeping it on the low side of eating meat (and advocate healthy veganism), I can also understand why it is what it is.

I have no proper scientific evidence to back this claim up, but it seems to me that animals with lower intellectual capacity (especially birds like chickens) are not aware of their life in the way that we are. They're more like insects, who mainly just respond to external stimuli according to how their nervous system is wired. And it seems to me that chickens also lack that part. So if they "live in the moment" and can't comprehend the world, then I believe that their perception of it is not comparable to ours (or that of other intelligent animals).

Of course, there are always exceptions to gross generalizations. For example, crows or ravens seem to be way beyond the level of intelligence that would be typically assumed, even though since they're quite different beasts from us/mammals, it is emotionally difficult to see it. But for their size and level of organism complexity, they are able to exert very fine analysis of their environment, and with what little tools they have (their legs and beak) perform certain complex tasks. So if those abilities at all correlate with the tremendous ability that we have to analyze the world in a philosophical and emotional sense, largely independent of time (which both are intellectual, are they not), then that would suggest that they can also feel a similar way as we. So while I'm getting lost in my point, I wanted to illustrate that it isn't always what it seems to be. Not all organisms have the same level of awareness that is first assumed.