☮ Social ☮ PD Social Talk Thread 2022-2023 v. Year of the Phenethylamine

[unodelacosa]

One more question. I have read that 5-MeO-MiPT is water soluble only in a salt form.

This is true. It's almost always sold as 5-MeO-MiPT fumarate, which is a water-soluble salt formed with fumaric acid. Otherwise, like most drugs, it is an oil in its base/alkaline/lipophilic form.

You see, water is H₂O, right? But picture this: the oxygen atom is huge and sits on one side of the H₂O molecule, while the two little hydrogen atoms with their single proton, neutron and electron each, sit to the opposite side of the oxygen. This makes one side of it negative and the other side positive, in terms of charge, like a battery. Or like the north and south pole, in a sense. So, water is polar because it exhibits electromagnetic polar ends. This is also why electricity travels through water. Oils, fats, hydrocarbons… they don't do this. They're non-polar. So when a drug oil bonds to an acid molecule, they become the two polar ends of one another in a chemical bond. This forms a lattice and gives us crystal salts.

Can i assume that the pills have a salt and not freebase?

Correct.

And how does it get to freebase from there?

You have to mix it with water and a base like sodium hydroxide (aka NaOH, lye), baking soda, soda ash, ammonia, etc. and then heat it up to cause the reaction to occur.

See so like if you have cocaine.hcl and you add water and then NaOH, what happens is the Na bonds to the Chloride from the hcl to form table salt, NaCl. That leaves you with two hydrogens and an oxygen, so water is a side product, but meanwhile it "frees" the coke back to its basic form. Hence the term: freebase.

Note: some things form freebase crystals, but most are oils. Exceptions include crack cocaine and DMT freebase crystals.

Can salts be vaped?

Not usually. Typically bonding to an acid molecule greatly lifts the melting and boiling points of a thing. The most notable exception to this in my mind would be methamphetamine.hcl, which actually melts at 175°C but doesn't boil until 214°C, which is significantly lower than its freebase oil, oddly enough, and through a sheer quirk of physics too complicated to get into here. Thermodynamics are a motherfucker; pardon my French.

EDIT: to clarify, vaporizing a drug is best achieved by heating it between its melting and boiling points, but not over the boiling point as it usually becomes too hot and will destabilize, polymerize, and scorch, ruining the drug. When the pipe is hit, a vacuum is created, which removes atmosphere and thus requires less energy to change phase from a liquid to a vapor. The fact that there's ~39°C distance between meth's MP and BP is what allows it to so easily be vaporized. Other drugs like 5-MeO-MiPT and DMT have lower boiling points and more care should be given to not scorch the drug. If they're in salt form, the MPs and BPs are even higher and burning the stuff becomes very difficult to avoid. Just my $0.02 anyway. Good luck!

Okay that's 3 questions.

 

[AutoTripper]

Gonna post this "around" as relatively few will see it in my crater earth thread.

And I want people to see this.

Better resolution actually on YT itself f you can. Just skip back, forth whenever.

Plus do all credit me maybe lol. The way this guy speaks so calmly and down-to-earth and collectively here I mean me of course LOL proves to me also that 325 g minimum original MDMA and I do believe a half g of LSD just those 2 to mention alone do not make somebody mentally increpid, incommunicable.

Would you even tell?

 

[Chris Timothy]

This is also why electricity travels through water.

False. Pure water is a poor conductor. The reason wet stuff zaps is because in practice it always contains ions of other elements.

 

[cosmic charlie]

False. Pure water is a poor conductor. The reason wet stuff zaps is because in practice it always contains ions of other elements.

Your so smart CT, you teach me stuff all the time.

 

[Xorkoth]

This is true. It's almost always sold as 5-MeO-MiPT fumarate, which is a water-soluble salt formed with fumaric acid. Otherwise, like most drugs, it is an oil in its base/alkaline/lipophilic form.

Actually, tryptamine freebases are usually hard crystals, not oils. Every tryptamine freebase I've seen (5-MeO-MiPT, 4-HO-DiPT, DiPT, MPT, MiPT, DMT, MALT, 5-MeO-AMT, and AMT I believe are the freebases I've seen) are smelly, solid crystals in freebase form. Pretty much all (if not literally all) phenethylamines are oils in freebase form, though.

 

[hylite]

Thank you for the reference of the medical research. Wow. Very intriguing. Imperatively interesting and quite astounding.
Research and end results very sincerely appreciated and quite useful.

Have a great day everyone

 

[TripSitterNZ]

Man life has been a wild rollercoaster. At one point i felt on top of the world everything was going my way, thought i could achieve all my dreams. Then i burnt myself and got plunged into a dark depression that hit some pretty fucking dark points in my own psyche. My thought stream was fucking scary.

I thought I could never hit a new low point. But i guess the universe always has a new challenge to come along to try teach you something about life. Over the last month I went through a fucking rollercoaster of dark hellish places in my mind reflected in those k holes.

So i started microdosing some acid this week and got free of those very dark thought patterns. Thank fuck for LSD saved my life once again and bought me back to the light of my own being.

I thought I could grind out the game of life all alone pedal to the medal no fucking breaks this entire year.

Then I realized while smoking a shit load of weed on this microdose outside i went to a crazy realm it was wild. But I finally got closure on the darkest parts of my childhood trauma. Then I realized all my hate flowed from that day I was abused for all these years. I manage to finally forgive and move forward to heal myself finally. Fuck it messed up my life for a long time. But now I think i can slowly try be more open with people and let people in. But I also learnt to never let anybody walk over me again.

Sometimes it takes hitting a new low to appreciate all the things we survived and the the ability to still move forward.

Life is fucking nuts.

 

[unodelacosa]

Actually, tryptamine freebases are usually hard crystals, not oils. Every tryptamine freebase I've seen (5-MeO-MiPT, 4-HO-DiPT, DiPT, MPT, MiPT, DMT, MALT, 5-MeO-AMT, and AMT I believe are the freebases I've seen) are smelly, solid crystals in freebase form. Pretty much all (if not literally all) phenethylamines are oils in freebase form, though.

Oh I know the typical tryptamine smell and taste, and as far as I know, those you mentioned are more like powders than "hard crystals", but regardless you're right – not everything becomes an oil in freebase form. However, it depends on the compound, including tryptamines. For example, MMT (aka NMT, n-methyltryptamine) is infamously an oil at room temperature, fucking up many an otherwise successful DMT crystal extraction if not separated.

False. Pure water is a poor conductor. The reason wet stuff zaps is because in practice it always contains ions of other elements.

Easy there, Dwight. Yes, you're technically correct; I was taking a bit of a shortcut. Also, it takes very few charged ions to make a comparatively large volume of water conductive, and overall it's uncommon to encounter absolutely pure water, so please don't anyone think that because they're using distilled water they can't get shocked when they attempt to use it as an insulator while they go for a quick dip.

Water's technically an insulator if it's absolutely pure and there are no other atoms present, like you said. But let's say we dissolve some NaCl in that water. The Na atoms provide a positive charge and the Cl atoms provide a negative ionic charge, and so we have charged ions dissolved in the water, and it conducts electricity now.

And anyway the point was to help ppl think of water as a polar solvent and oils as non-polar solvents.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Absolutely fair. Please forgive any attire of flippancy, it was not intended as such. I'm just happy to hold my physics ground around chemists.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Is there any body who knows the reasoning for the disappearance of 2-CT-2.

It was afaik not illegalized like 2-CT-7. And even 2-CB seems more available reading the reports.

Not that I am soliciting, but it was such a nice compound. I don't get it why it vanished.

 

[unodelacosa]

Is there any body who knows the reasoning for the disappearance of 2-CT-2.

It was afaik not illegalized like 2-CT-7. And even 2-CB seems more available reading the reports.

Not that I am soliciting, but it was such a nice compound. I don't get it why it vanished.

• 2C-T-2 is considered a Schedule 9 prohibited substance in Australia under the Poisons Standard (October 2015).
• In the United States, 2C-T-2 is specifically listed as a schedule I substance under SEC. 1152 of S.3187: Food and Drug Administration Safety and Innovation Act of 2012.
• In the United Kingdom, 2C-T-2 and all other compounds featured in PiHKAL are illegal.
• As of October 31, 2016, 2C-T-2 is a controlled substance (Schedule III) in Canada.
• The Netherlands became the first country in the world to ban 2C-T-2, and classify it as a hard drug, by law. In April 1999, 2C-T-2 became a list I drug of the Opium Law.

Also, adding to this:

• It's an MAOI and quite dangerous to take with other substances. Thus it's more of a liability to put out on the black market.
• Working with sulfur is not exactly a picnic, but then neither is bromine, so idk about this one…
• It's likely that other compounds have syntheses with higher yields significant enough to warrant preference as a target product.

Famously one of Papa Shulgin's "Magical Half-Dozen" phenethylamines from PiHKAL, it's not too surprising to see this become rare thanks to its MAOI properties…

 

[unodelacosa]

Actually, tryptamine freebases are usually hard crystals, not oils. Every tryptamine freebase I've seen (5-MeO-MiPT, 4-HO-DiPT, DiPT, MPT, MiPT, DMT, MALT, 5-MeO-AMT, and AMT I believe are the freebases I've seen) are smelly, solid crystals in freebase form. Pretty much all (if not literally all) phenethylamines are oils in freebase form, though.

Come to think of it, 5-MeO-MiPT is an oil in freebase form as I recall, and though you didn’t mention it, DPT forms a dark red oil as well. This is just from my personal experience anyway. It’s certainly a fair point that there are other tryptamine freebase solids at room temp.

 

[Pfafffed]

Actually, tryptamine freebases are usually hard crystals, not oils. Every tryptamine freebase I've seen (5-MeO-MiPT, 4-HO-DiPT, DiPT, MPT, MiPT, DMT, MALT, 5-MeO-AMT, and AMT I believe are the freebases I've seen) are smelly, solid crystals in freebase form. Pretty much all (if not literally all) phenethylamines are oils in freebase form, though.

I've definitely had NMT and DPT that were oils fwiw. Had to Infuse them into plant matter, making reliable dosage a pain.

 

[Pfafffed]

It's an MAOI and quite dangerous to take with other substances. Thus it's more of a liability to put out on the black market.

If it is an MAOi, then I'm fairly sure that it's a weak one. People love throwing that term around willy nilly, and 2C-T-2's chemical and temporal proximity to 2C-T-7 likely made it guilty by association.

I'm unaware of any life-threatening adverse events with 2C-T-2, alone or in combination. Erowid doesn't have any concerning ones. I personally wouldn't take the risk of combining it with MDMA for example, but there's plenty of documented instances.

I think it's likely wise to treat it as though it is, but with the caveat that there's never been any evidence that it is a MAOi, let alone a potent or irreversible one.

@fastandbulbous back in 2008 posted about this. I think this was the article they were referring to? I'm at work right now, so don't have time to dig properly.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

• The Netherlands became the first country in the world to ban 2C-T-2, and classify it as a hard drug, by law. In April 1999, 2C-T-2 became a list I drug of the Opium Law.

It's an MAOI and quite dangerous to take with other substances. Thus it's more of a liability to put out on the black market.

Wow that came on hard, we were the actually the first to ban it.

I found it from all Phenethylamines the most pleasant and trippy one. And it went very well with the comedown of MDMA so I doubt its MAOI action is that strong.

2-CT-7 was way more unpleasant, and probably more dangerous. Thanks for the answer unodelacosa.

 

[unodelacosa]

2-CT-7 was way more unpleasant, and probably more dangerous. Thanks for the answer unodelacosa.

I was thinking of 2C-T-7 and thought I had read the entire 2C-T-x series exhibited this mild RIMA trait.

Similarly, I seem to recall the entire ALEPH series is also comprised of RIMAs? Is my memory off, though?

I'm unaware of any life-threatening adverse events with 2C-T-2, alone or in combination.

To an extent, I'm conjecturing the point of view of someone with the means and capability to put out either 2C-T-x or something else and why that person might not opt for 2C-T-x… Regardless these are good points you make.

If it is an MAOi, then I'm fairly sure that it's a weak one.

Agreed.

People love throwing that term around willy nilly

I just like the term "willy nilly"

 

[unodelacosa]

Absolutely fair. Please forgive any attire of flippancy, it was not intended as such. I'm just happy to hold my physics ground around chemists.

I'm reminded of this xkcd comic titled: “Purity” …



The alt text reads: “On the other hand, physicists like to say that physics is to math as sex is to masturbation.”

 

[cosmic charlie]

Well my health seems to be going back to normal guys, don't wanna jynx it but my chest hasn't bothered me at all for the last two days. So yeah gonna take this as message from the gods and stick to the Psychedelics for now on. Everytime I try to use anything else it's just a shit show and I can't live like that no more I'm getting too old. Managed to lose twenty pounds over the last month or so also by dieting. Haven't changed what I eat completely but I switched to two meals a day spread out by 8-10hrs. And I haven't been going hard to the paint with the candy anymore. Also think it has something to do with reducing my Zyprexa intake by half. Gonna just keep it up for another week and then possibly go for another drop....

2C-B here I come!!!

 

[Chris Timothy]

@unodelacosa Hey now, I was inebriated and duly rendered indifferent towards context when I persnicketied your psychedeliaparade. I apologized and took your rebuke in stride. No need to dig it up again and bumfuck the dead horse. I've long ago been forced into seminal retention by ketaminergic renal system inflammation which makes one think twice before sloshing one's wad when it feels like primordial magma pouring out of mother earth herself. Hate to ruin your setup like that, but for your mad hatter wanker you can perhaps have a looking glass.

 

[Pfafffed]

Man, I'm feeling really sad today. I know she lived long, loved well, and improved innumerable past and future lives. That's all we could hope for. I'm still sad, though. It's the end of an era and the birth of another. I hope some of the lessons that pioneers like Ann fought so hard for influence the masses now migrating into psychedelic spaces.