Recovery Now it's just kratom tapering and then quitting, right?

[KraziKat]

So if I'm being honest with myself, here's what's happened. I was very much physically dependent on 150-200 mg IR oxycodone (blues). For many, many months. I used a VERY short term suboxone (and alcohol and kratom) detox to quit that, then left the subs behind for just kratom and booze.

For a month I was a raging alcholic, maybe dosing kratom once a day at this time. It has now been 8 days since my last drink – the anxiety has subsided, thank fucking god. And I pray it does not return. I believe I will drink one day in the future and attempt moderation, but not today. Just for today I will not, so I say.

Anyway, this past week while detoxing from alcohol, I ramped up my kratom dosing to 2-3 times per day, guessing 7 grams a dose, eyeballed, more or less. This morning I feel the pangs of WD from it with the RLS and anxiety. Oh how I long for homeostasis.

While I'm proud of myself for quitting alcohol, or taking an extended break, whatever it is, I'm not thrilled that now I am physically dependent on this plant matter. It's a godsend, not doubt, and has it's place, but I'd like to know what it feels like to not take a certain substance every day to feel normal.

I have a wife who knows about the oxy and booze situations, but not so much the kratom. I have two sweet little kids who no nothing but 'daddy is the best.' My day-to-day life, i need to be present and functional, and the kratom is holding me together. At night, the liquor cravings are intense, but the kratom and occasional MJ make things bearable.

I have purchased every herb, adaptogen, amino acid and vitamin under the sun. Any advice on what, how and when I should take things is greatly appreciated. I literally have spent like 300+ dollars at Vitamin Shop. I'm such a dope.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The supplement market is pretty much a game. It's nearly impossible to overstate the benefits of eating healthy (see Michael Pollen's book), exercise and stress management in recovery - these kinds of lifestyle practices do everything supplements can and much more. I would try and not rely as much on popping pills or supplements and more on how you go about living each day and the amount of time and energy you put into healthy activities.

Regarding the kratom, how long as have you been taking it in total? A month or two? It may be worthwhile to stay on it and slowly reduce you dose of it for a little while, as you've been going through so much first with your opioid detox and then with dealing with the drinking. You body and mind could almost certainly do with a little stability. There is a chance kratom for a few more weeks could help with this, and if you're worried about withdrawal from that all you need to do is work on slowly cutting down your dose.

Of course, you could also just stop taking the kratom now and try to ride it out. It will be a bit rougher, so be warned. It sounds like you'd be better off no increasing the stress while you put some more distance between you and your alcohol use IMO however. Stopping the kratom all at once will probably be pretty stressful. Just as long as continuing to use it isn't an even greater stressor, consider taking it for another week or two and just staying away from the alcohol.

What is most important is that clearly you are continuing to move in the right direction in terms of your health. Try and remember to congratulate and reward yourself for all the hard work you are doing, and keep it up!

 

[KraziKat]

Thank you, T-dog. It has been a helluva ride. To answer your question, I've been using the kratom almost daily since ceasing the oxy, and def stepped it up a notch this past week after my booze quit. So it's been about a month and a half. I also quit smoking cigs using Alan Carr's book 2 weeks ago, so there's a lot going on.

I'm going to take your advice and try to taper the kratom over the next few weeks to make the landing as easy as possible. I agree, I need to get out of the habit of thinking pills will solve my problems. Work was and will be stressful for another week or so, as soon as things settle, I'll work on quitting kratom. I'll get a scale in order to do it properly vs eyeballing it as I have been.

I abhor the RLS at night and anxiety and sleeplessness, which I know will come with CT kratom. I'm dosing either 2 or 3 times a day... I'll try to cut it to 1, or use much smaller amounts. Ive seen some threads with some extensive taper schedules. My wife and rest of support network don't quite realize what kratom does for me... it is that effective IMHO. Though I sure do miss my pills on this rainy day at home with the family.

I just took my second dose of the day... tried to hold off, but failed. Hopefully it will get me through the night. Keep you posted. BL and folks like you, TPD, have been so kind and helpful.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm glad to hear you are finding your way with this Krazikat! Folks like you, who we get to see fight the good fight, who are honest about their struggles and fears, who put in the hard work to better yourself and get to a happier, healthier place, being able to be a part of this kind of journey makes being part of such a supportive, nonjudgemental community so wonderful and empowering. So thank you Krazikat, for being a part of all this

You will probably experience some degree of discomfort coming off the kratom, but it won't be anything as bad as it was coming off full agonists opioids like what you've already accomplished. It's just a matter of doing it in whatever way works for you and helps you keep from backtracking and struggling too much. I highly recommend hot baths/showers and Tiger Balm for bedtime restlessness/RLS.

So much of withdrawal is psychological - it can be such a scary experience and that fear can work its way so easily into our heads leading us to make less than skillful decisions. And the crazy part is that that kind of stress, the psychological part of withdrawal, is so deeply interconnected to the physiological part of withdrawal.

It's like how a positive attitude and the kind of informed understanding about what one is experiencing during withdrawal can actually make the physical symptoms much less severe. Likewise, the inverse, of not understanding what is going on and living in a place of fear and anxiety about the process, can really exacerbate the difficulties and discomfort of acute withdrawal. The good news is that by working to educate yourself about your experience helps to lead to more skillful action, and experiencing the positive, reassuring outcome of taking skillful action during withdrawal is so empowering and self-affirming that it makes the process infinitely more manageable and anything but impossible.

So I suggest you take it slowly and figure out what works for you. You have the rest of your life to recovery - it can be really helpful to keep this kind of scope in mind with what you're doing. Continuing to make steady, consistent small skillful decisions might not be the most dramatic way to go about managing your recovering, but it is undoubtably the most sustainable.

You have a good head on your shoulders, and I'm confident you'll find your own way of coming off the kratom when you are ready and most able. It's all about taking the long view, of doing what you can now to set yourself up for success in the long term. Think of it like investing in your own future. What you do with this all today will have a huge impact on your future health and happiness.

That said about the importance of not rushing with this, please try and keep in mind that you're also making great, timely progress. It's not like you'll have to wait the rest of your life to start feeling better. You're certainly already seeing the improvements, which is heartening

 

[KraziKat]

Thanks for such a comprehensive, motivating reply, TPD. Very insightful, just need to remember it when I'm down and out or craving.

Made it through yesterday with just two kratom doses, so that's progress, though it is the weekend and the real challenge will be when back to work.

Evenings are hard, when my wife sips on her white wine. I'd say she drinks a glass or two a night. I'm very aware of the alcohol in the house. Getting and staying to sleep is crucial, as that's when I'd run into trouble with liquor, using as a sleep aid.

I'm aware I should get out of the habit of popping pills to resolve issues, but last night L tryptophan and Valerian together, two capsules of each really did the trick. Either it's effective or a great placebo.

I have plenty of MJ, yet I'm surprising myself by not hitting it more. I think it has a lot to do with the fear I have of being judged for altering my state by my wife. Then again, my kratom is done unbeknownst to her. She knows I have it on hand, but prob not to the extent. We are both tired of talking about my addiction and recovery.

 

[lazydullard]

I can vouch for valerian root actually working.

good luck with your struggles.

 

[KraziKat]

I can vouch for valerian root actually working.

good luck with your struggles.

v

Can I ask what dosages you take? It took some experimentation but 1500-2000 mg of extract capsules plus a couple tryptophans, had be yawning in an hour and primed for sleep.

 

[KraziKat]

So I have not yet started quitting or tapering the kratom yet. I wake up in withdrawal from it an take my first dose in the AM, then another midday and a third dose early evening.

While I quit drinking every day and quit actual opiates (roxies), I still feel very much in active addiction swallowing this somewhat vile plant matter.

I drank for the first time the other day while traveling for work, but I do not feel the urge to become an everyday drinker again. At least for now.

 

[KraziKat]

A question: I have probably about 1 mg worth of a sub strip left from my pill detox. Do you think taking that as a means to jump-start a kratom quit would be effective and helpful? I would not get any more. It would just be a one-time 1 mg dose.

 

[KraziKat]

I've also been looking into using DXM to come off kratom. I've never used it before. Good idea? I wouldn't want to trip or get sick, but does anyone know of an effective dosage to stave off kratom WDs while still being completely functional and have all my faculties?

 

[Jabberwocky]

KraziKat, have you talked with your wife about how having alcohol around the house and her drinking is kind of stressful for you right now? If she is supportive I imagine she's go along with being more sensitive to how her drinking affects you given your current situation trying to get sober.

Also, try not to be so hard on yourself about using whatever you need to to get through the withdrawal and set yourself up for success in early recovery. There is nothing to worry about taking L tryptophan and Valerian - it is hardly the same as the way we might be tempted to pop other pills (after all, a pill is just a pill - what is inside it is what is important).

So I have not yet started quitting or tapering the kratom yet. I wake up in withdrawal from it an take my first dose in the AM, then another midday and a third dose early evening.

While I quit drinking every day and quit actual opiates (roxies), I still feel very much in active addiction swallowing this somewhat vile plant matter.

I drank for the first time the other day while traveling for work, but I do not feel the urge to become an everyday drinker again. At least for now.

I would wait to start tapering the kratom until you've stabilized a bit more. How long have you been using kratom again now? Also, how long were you able to take a break from drinking before you had your recent beverage?

A question: I have probably about 1 mg worth of a sub strip left from my pill detox. Do you think taking that as a means to jump-start a kratom quit would be effective and helpful? I would not get any more. It would just be a one-time 1 mg dose.

If you're waking up sick, try taking 0.25mg with your evening dose of kratom. It probably won't do much, but it should help you in terms of keeping you from waking up so sick.

I've also been looking into using DXM to come off kratom. I've never used it before. Good idea? I wouldn't want to trip or get sick, but does anyone know of an effective dosage to stave off kratom WDs while still being completely functional and have all my faculties?

DXM is tricky. It has a LOT of side effects and is a difficult substance to use. However, when in acute opioid withdrawal it can be a godsend if you can tolerate it (only something like 30% of people seem to tolerate the stuff, and only like a third of those people end up tolerating it do it more than once).

If you want to experiment with it, I'd suggest taking not more than ~150mg for your first dose. I also suggest taking it while you're actually feeling the withdrawal, as opposed to taking it with kratom. At least, experiment with only taking DXM as opposed to mixing it with other meds or substances (which can be dangerous).

The awesome thing about DXM is that it can very effectively eliminate nearly all the major symptoms of withdrawal, and in doing so allowing one to engage the process in a more productive way than it one were merely suffering through it. The difficult thing about it is its side effects, and how it impairs cognitive ability while under the influence (it will make you feel kind of like you have some developmental or intellectual issues while you're under its influence - it isn't likely to have any long term effects on your intellect or cognitive abilities, but it will retard their sharpness while under its influence).

The lowest dose you can use of DXM to treat acute opioid (and kratom) withdrawal is probably around 150mg (possibly as low as 90-120, as that seems to be where the initial effects we're looking for present themselves). This kind of dose will keep you pretty functional, certainly a lot more so than 350-700mg would, but again you're not going to be able to rely on things like chronological memory (though it actually seems to strengthen recall for procedural memory) or use your other cognitive abilities like you would not under its influence.

The kind of doses that is required to eliminate most of the acute withdrawal are too high for many people who use it for this to remain functional in the normal go to work and accomplish complex intellectual tasks however. Try 150mg on a day when you don't have many responsibilities, and treat it like an experiment to see how it effects you (take notes, write a trip report, etc).

Do you have much experience using psychedelics? If you do you should approach the DXM with the same kind of reverence and respect for how powerful the substance can be.

It can be kind of fun, although also very challenging sometimes, to account and learn to compensate for how DXM affects the way we think, interact and see the world. It kind of forced you to approach things differently, which can be a very useful thing when dealing with substance use disorder and recovery. In many ways it is actually a lot like iboga.

 

[KraziKat]

I do have a fair amount of experience with LSD and mushrooms. I guess you answered my question regarding DXM. Maybe I'll take a sick day from work and experiment as you suggest. I have two small kids that I need to be present for, and certainly my wife won't understand the need for or desire for experimentation with cough syrup. That convo would set us back quite a bit.

She knows I'm taking the kratom, but does not know how much. I wouldn't say I'm waking up VERY sick. But with it's with enough discomfort to want to take my kratom dose right away to get the day started. Let's put it this way, I wake up with RLS every morning, it's like that is what wakes me up. And I have the watery eyes and slight achiness. Kratom takes all of that away within 10 minutes.

She agreed that I shouldn't feel discomfort if I don't have to, but then again, she is very naive to the whole process.

As for the alcohol, I had gone a good 19 days between drinks. When I drank the other night, I had about 3 beers and 2 bourbons. I wasn't hammered, nor did I wake up hungover, though I was slightly dissappointed in breaking the streak. But I'm not being too hard on myself. I haven't drank since either.

As for my wife, I have not said anything about her keeping no alcohol in the house, as I know that will only make her anxious and a little upset. She's expressed to me that she doesn't want to be my caretaker when it comes to this, and she said she is not sure how she would feel about being with someone she can't enjoy a drink with. Not that she is some heartless bitch, I just think it was never in the brochure that she would have to be dealing with all of this addiction drama.

 

[KraziKat]

With regard to subs, DXM or anything else, I'm thinking of those substance as something to use when I am ready once and for all the stop kratom -- but I think my best bet is probably a slow taper... just getting kind of sick of it. I've had some mild nausea from it lately which is not fun.

 

[KraziKat]

Just picked up some black seed oil.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Gotcha, sounds like you're navigating this whole process well.

There is no reason you can't keep yourself from going all out with alcohol even if you occasionally have a drink (one or two drinks every 19 days wouldn't be so bad, after all!). Just be aware that having alcohol around and spending time with people who are drinking can cause cravings and trigger urging in early recovery.

Try tapering, that is almost always the better option if you have the ability to try one. You can make a decision about using DXM (or another entheogen or NMDAr antagonist type substance) further down the road.

Let us know if the black seed oil helps. I wouldn't get your hopes up, but in combo with opioids like buprenorphine or w/ kratom, who knows.

 

[KraziKat]

It is downright comical how much time and money I've spent researching and them buying a veritable arsenal of vitamins, herbs, adaptogens, amino acids, etc.

In reality, I should probably suck it up and be miserable for a week, but I keep justifying that "I can't do that now."

 

[Jabberwocky]

Well, I've never been a fan of suffering through something that is otherwise avoidable.

I'd just suggest spending more of your resources on more basic lifestyle related components of recovery (like a healthy sleep schedule, eating a balanced, healthy regular diet, being wise with the TV and mass media you consume, spending time with people you enjoy the company of and/or loved ones, devoting time to hobbies and self care type activities (doing things you enjoy basically, like going to a concert or the beach, that doesn't involve substance use - at least on your part), etc). I would be very confident betting on most supplements being of limited to no significant value.

The behavioral and lifestyle stuff is really where the rubber meets the road with recovery. The more you can do now to start establishing a healthier routine - one explicitly focused on your emotional, intellectual and physiological wellbeing - the more tools you'll have to rely on when you do end up jumping off to zero opioid use and the quicker you'll bounce back after your period of acute withdrawal ends.

An extended detox (basically a very slow taper over a six month period), although any taper will as well to a degree, help give you the time to start establishing healthier habits that you can rely on when the time comes you have to deal with withdrawal and early recovery.

 

[RecoveringDude]

Hard way:
Get those natural brain endorphins from cardio
Flush your any kratom you have down the toilet and take a week off work if you have too.
Easy way:
Taper
Cardio
Supplements

 

[KraziKat]

I keep checking all my old hiding spots where I used to stash my oxy pills. Still none there. The cravings are so strong of late, and I dose my kratom to satiate them, again. I miss the pills. Not gonna lie, I really do.