Opioids Not getting high from methadone?

[Bomb319]

It seems as if almost everybody on MMT as well as doctors and pharmacists concur that methadone does not seem to cause anywhere near the same degree of euphoria as other equally strong opiates. At the very least, there is a consensus that any euphoric effect will wear off over time, and is one of the effects of methadone that is quickest to wear off, no matter what the dosage is.

Here's my question:

I've now been on MMT for just over a year. I started at 30 mg and went up by 20 mg weekly (sometimes 10) until I reached 220 mg just over a couple of months ago. This dose is fairly high and it's because I always seem to experience some significant withdrawal by the next morning if I take my methadone at around 8:30-10:30 am the previous morning. Some of this may be psychological as I am now absolutely phobic of experiencing opiate withdrawal after suffering years of hell in which I was so sick I couldn't leave my bed for days, yet knowing I'd have to go out and spend at least a couple hours in public to score my next fix - the only thing that would make me feel better short of waiting it out in bed for weeks. No matter what dose of methadone I'm on, I seem to rapidly build tolerance within a few weeks, and do suffer some degree of physical withdrawal by next morning - sometimes even an hour or two less than a 24 hour day. In fact, I will experience a few early withdrawal symptoms such as yawning and some tearing as soon as that very evening.

Now despite methadone's reputation as not causing euphoria. I absolutely find that once I take it, I experience very typical opiate effects on my mood and demeanor. I can feel it kicking about 40 minutes after I take it. Not simply just feeling "normal" once again, it definitely feels good and very relaxing/calming once it does kick in. In fact, it feels more or less as it would if I were to take a reasonably high dose of oral opioids such as oxycodone. While it certainly is nowhere near as intense as IV heroin or Dilaudid, it more or less feels like any oral dose of a good opiate except for the fact that the most intense feeling lingers for around 3 hours before fading into imperceptibility, although if I take a potentiator such as diphenhydramine later on that night, I will feel it start to increase again (although doing that also seems to reduce the length of time it's effective for which contributes greatly to my morning withdrawal symptoms). I also get a HUGE burst of energy from it; in the morning while having mild withdrawal, I still have my energy levels almost completely sapped and it's very hard for me to get anything done, or even sometimes leave my house to get my next dose in the first place! But once it kicks in, I become very happy, talkative and relaxed, and I can also work without any problems. I tried a job which started at 7:30 am and so I couldn't get my dose until about 10:30, and it didn't kick in fully until around 11:30. It was a disaster. I had no motivation, energy, was sweating and yawning a lot and overall was nearly incapacitated such that I had to quit. I absolutely NEED to have my dose in the AM for energy.

So here's the thing. Is it normal to have these usually mild but often approaching moderate w/d symptoms as early as 24 hours after dosing? Part of the reason it is working so well for me is that I DO continue to feel that sought after opiated feeling - strong enough to make me feel great and kill any cravings I may have. From what I've read, I just am curious as to whether or not this is unusual, and if anyone here knows what I'm talking about. Even though it works very well for me and has allowed me to cease ALL other opioid usage foe the first time since 2008, is it bad that it's only effective because I sill get a certain degree of "high" from it? Most other people I've talked to said that methadone works for them because it only makes them feel normal again. I want to know if this impacts my treatment and is detrimental in the long term. Right now at least, I know I could never go off of it or even decrease my dose. I feel just as addicted as ever (although much more so due to the high dosage and relatively lengthy effects) although obviously much better since I have a daily dose and no longer need to worry about the hellish "daily grind" of somehow getting enough money, contacting one of my dealers who has shit and is able to meet, getting out there while really sick, and having to duck into a public bathroom to shoot up.

Anyone else have thoughts on this, please? Also, have you experienced such rapid w/d on it as I have? Don't get me wrong - it's NOTHING compared to what it would be if I missed several days. I tried going without for an extra 18 hours once, and started to feel that terrible crushing depression sensation and feelings of unreality similar to that of full blown heroin withdrawal. My sense of smell started to come back strongly, I started to become nauseated enough to worry about keeping my next dose down, my pupils were the size of dinner plates, etc. The usual morning withdrawal may sap me of energy and feel uncomfortable, but it could certainly be a lot worse. I just thought that most people are held for 24 hours or longer such that they at least feel totally normal right before taking their next dose.

 

[keeping]

higher doses can lead to euphoria and general opiate-ness.
my friend works in a pharmacy and theres this couple that come in to get their daily dose, except the woman holds it in her mouth and kisses her boyfriend, basically spits it into his mouth for that exact reason.

 

[da man]

its psychological imo. taht is an insane dose. i sometimes yawn and get hot flushes at bed time. i only dose first thing in the morning b4 work. it passes, for me its all in my head. i was on over 100ml and now am undeer 20ml. push through it and see what happens u shouldnt get any physical withdrawl after the 60ml mark IMO. Tho we all have a different biological make up it may vary. I still get depressed and mental cravings sometimes it only deals with the physical side for me

 

[Bomb319]

Well I certainly agree that it's psychological in PART. That is, if I take my meth way too early and have none for the next day, I will tend to stay in bed all day like I did when addicted to H, not because I actually feel so terrible but because of the psychology of knowing it will get worse, I'm not covered, etc. bringing me back to the old way of thinking. I also won't/can't eat or sleep, and that alone contributes immensenly to w/d.

That said, in the mornings there's no way it's ENTIRELY psychological. The yawning, sneezing fits (8 or more at times) and huge pupils compared to pinpoint pupils when I've just taken it - especially if diphenhyramine as well, all show that there is absolutely an undeniable physical effect of withdrawal. Like I said in my OP, it also seems strange that it kicks in so quickly for me. On a completely empty stomach, I vcan feel the very beginnings of it taking effects as early as 30 min after dosing, and nearly always am getting quite "high" at 40 minutes. That might have something to do with how quickly it leaves my body.

Sorry for the giant post by the way. I never mean to do it, but start rambling and it always happens. It actually is a good point as it reflects my energy levels. I could and would NEVER make a post like this in the morning without my 'done; I just wouldn't have the energy or patience.

 

[Erikmen]

its psychological imo. taht is an insane dose. i sometimes yawn and get hot flushes at bed time. i only dose first thing in the morning b4 work. it passes, for me its all in my head. i was on over 100ml and now am undeer 20ml. push through it and see what happens u shouldnt get any physical withdrawl after the 60ml mark IMO. Tho we all have a different biological make up it may vary. I still get depressed and mental cravings sometimes it only deals with the physical side for me

Agree totally. I'm going through this as we "speak". Sometimes I don't think I'll ever make it. It's killing me.

 

[da man]

well then maybe u r a supeer fast metabolizer. Im just stating my personal experiances with it. And for me the psychological part is huge. The brain can be amazingly convincing especially when it comes to opiate addiction. tho it sounds like u have a very fast metabolism, stil l220s a fucking huge dose bro. how long did it take for u to titrate that beast of a dose. If i were u id split doses 120 in morning and 100 at 7/8pmish and se if that helps

 

[Erikmen]

Well I certainly agree that it's psychological in PART. That is, if I take my meth way too early and have none for the next day, I will tend to stay in bed all day like I did when addicted to H, not because I actually feel so terrible but because of the psychology of knowing it will get worse, I'm not covered, etc. bringing me back to the old way of thinking. I also won't/can't eat or sleep, and that alone contributes immensenly to w/d.

That said, in the mornings there's no way it's ENTIRELY psychological. The yawning, sneezing fits (8 or more at times) and huge pupils compared to pinpoint pupils when I've just taken it - especially if diphenhyramine as well, all show that there is absolutely an undeniable physical effect of withdrawal. Like I said in my OP, it also seems strange that it kicks in so quickly for me. On a completely empty stomach, I vcan feel the very beginnings of it taking effects as early as 30 min after dosing, and nearly always am getting quite "high" at 40 minutes. That might have something to do with how quickly it leaves my body.

Sorry for the giant post by the way. I never mean to do it, but start rambling and it always happens. It actually is a good point as it reflects my energy levels. I could and would NEVER make a post like this in the morning without my 'done; I just wouldn't have the energy or patience.

That's what I mean. Now figure yourself making a jump from 30 mg to zero, except for 10 mg SOS when things go really bad. It's not right. Problem is being on Methadone for too long 7+ years after 13 years on hard core opiates and high quality heroin! It's wild..

 

[Erikmen]

well then maybe u r a supeer fast metabolizer. Im just stating my personal experiances with it. And for me the psychological part is huge. The brain can be amazingly convincing especially when it comes to opiate addiction. tho it sounds like u have a very fast metabolism, stil l220s a fucking huge dose bro. how long did it take for u to titrate that beast of a dose. If i were u id split doses 120 in morning and 100 at 7/8pmish and se if that helps

I started with 150 mg night and day..fucking messed up now. Using 18 mg of Bromazepam, Seroquel, heart meds, etc, etc

 

[da man]

i dont know how yank drs get away with prescribing these stupidly high doses.' in uk u need a heart test to go over 100ml. 100ml should hold any habit i mean like super high habits. ive read so many people from the US say there on these crazy high doses, its ridiculous imagine losing your script for some reason on anything over 100ml is gonna be a fucking nightmare withdrawl or crazy amount of H to cover it. and the damage to heart, teeth and fuck knows what else. Just crazy

 

[dopemaster]

Well methadone is an opiod so yes it will cause opiate effects.

You are on a very high dose so it is no surprise you feel addicted to it because you are. It is just a substitute. I guess the whole point is so you can get your life in order without having to do junkie stuff (crimes) and go about being a productive citizen.

I believe the feelings you have are what are reffered to as "liquid handcuffs".

This is exactly why I think methadone should not be doled out by private companies. I suppose if you want to be on methadone for an indefinite period to the rest of your life you are at a good dose. If you want to taper off it is going to be brutal. Methadone is a long acting drug and has a very long half life.

I myself have taken methadone when I couldn't get pain pills and I felt pretty damn good. I have had no problems coming off methadone as I never took it for more than a week or two. I just went back to pills. It is not like I had an rx or went to a clinic.

Anyways I have come off some opiates and opiods with some very long half lifes and it was horrible. Suboxone was the nastiest. Morphine was no walk in the park but it was shorter. Still it took me months for each kick where I tried to stay clean to even be able to walk more than just across my house.

So yeah you got yourself in a bind but as the clinic will tell you, you have been clean X amount of days or months or whatever but you are still taking an opiod. Anyone I know who has gone on methadone has had month long wd's and most relapsed back on to heroin or pills.

I personally would go on methadone and stay on it if I could but I can't afford it and more importantly I take a type of medication that is a big no-no with methadone clinics. I would love to have methadone as my pain rx. I really would. I just would never ditch my anxiety medication for it.

Your case is exactly why methadone should be run by the government and not private clinics. I have no idea as to why it is so expensive as it is literally the world's cheapest pain medication to make and it was made for pain originally back in WW2 by the Germans. But anyways you are just on a legal opiod. It is that simple.

If you want off the stuff, good luck. You might find yourself wanting to get right back on. This is a very common problem. Methadone users have found many ways to increase the methadone "high" and I am not going to get into them because they kill people including people I have known.

 

[Bomb319]

Thank you for your input. I think I may have come across the wrong way, though. First of all, I don't have a problem being on methadone itself. It's actually not only saved my life, but given me freedom again in that I don't have to find a fix 3 times a day and be nightmarishly miserable and confined to bed when I can't. It also has some other positive effects for me beyond it's use as a maintenance drug. For example, I used to have very annoying stomach issues; I would often get diarrhea simply from drinking a cold glass of water in the morning on an empty stomach! There were many times where I've been trapped while driving (or once on a tour bus) where I start to get intolerable cramps and diarrhea but am not able to get to a bathroom. This happened quite often after eating many different foodsm and other times for no reason. Not only was it excruciatingly painful, but obviously very embarrassing if on a date, or tour bus etc. Since I started using opiates, that has gone away completely. I don't know what was causing it in the first place, but it's amazing to not have to deal with it anymore. Other issues like depression, stuffy nose at night, insomnia and migraines are ALL issues I've suffered my whole life, but are either completely cured or else maintained by the methadone. For me, it is a wonder drug. Yes, there are side effects that are hard to deal with, but most are mild or manageable. Weight gain and sweating are by far the worst. Constipation is never that bad and often not even present at all, sexual side effects...yes it's quite a lot harder to "get there", but not impossible, especially if it's any time after the first several hours after dosing. This might actually be considered a POSITIVE since you last longer.

Another thing - I'm in Canada, and I'm not sure if that matters, but I go to a pharmacy to get my methadone, NOT the clinic. I only need to go to the clinic once a month or six weeks even to get my prescription. Otherwise, I just walk into the pharmacy I live near every day and it's only a 4 minute walk. I'm also starting to get carries, and now have 2 per week but eventually will have weeklies. In other words, it does not greatly interfere with my life - except that crappy morning job I mentioned. Between the issues it fixes for me, getting my life back and not worrying about withdrawal, saving my money and the relative ease of incorporating it into my lifestyle, I honestly feel (at least at this point) that I would gladly be on it for life. I will need to work exceptionally hard to lose weight and maintain it, but I don't see myself stopping it entirely anytime soon, or even reducing it. It's too effective and I was brutally addicted for nearly 7 years.

It does dull me a fair bit emotionally, and also makes me so hyper that I seem to annoy whoever I talk to, but so far that's a fairly small price to pay and is fully manageable. I've never been into drugs and despite hacing used pretty much everything (except hallucinogens), the ONLY drugs I have such a strong affinity and compulsive need for are opiates. I did a fair bit of coke and crack, but only out of boredom and I didn't really enjoy it much since I tend toward nervousness and overexcitability anyways. I was able to abrupty stop using it no problem because I never really enjoyed it - even while high on it and right after using it. Same with smoking cigarettes. I know it's a stupid as helkl reason to smoke, but I just get so BORED and have so little to do most of the time, smoking gives me an excuse to get outside many times per day. I'm pretty sure I could quit easily once I decide to. I've also never been into alcohol and haven't drank in about a year. Not only do I not enjoy it particularly, but it gives me stomachaches and headaches and just overall feels like it's poisoning me.

Opiates though..ever since the first time I used them (I had percocet prescribed for years - 100 pe month for migraines which is what turned me into an addict in the first place), it was like I found a long-lost love, and it just seemed to complete me - almost as if it was something I knew I needed all along, but didn't know how to get it. This tells me - along with all the symptoms I described - that I may have always suffered from low endorphins. All I know is that I love everything about them except addiction, of course. Even if I could taper down from 220 mg, I know I would be sick and miserable basically forever.

 

[jesuspeople666]

methadone is fucking trash it doesent make u high at all in some good way, ive tried it only once in pill form and i sat just nodding but couldent felll asleep all day
nodding isent even something i use to do when i get high on heroin, i get acctive and people even think i use amphetamine or something when they see me high on H

 

[David Wooderson]

The highest I ever been on an opiate was my second day on methadone, and I would still prefer it over dope or any pain med.
Different strokes for different folks.

Many years ago I was on 240mg and had an altercation that led to me being put on an emergency withdrawal that had my being reduced 20mg a day. I got to 180 or around there and started hallucinating. Got put in a psych ward, was there 2 weeks they got me down to the point where I was taking suboxone, which they wouldn't do today, got discharged, was still hallucinating and withdrawing, they didn't teach me to hold it under my tongue so I was chewing and swallowing them, got home and decided I was going to kill myself, called a emergency help line, had cops at my house asap, wound up in a state ward for a month where I kicked cold turkey. I was restrained most of the time, when I wasn't I was on 1:1...

So it's totally possible to get off of a dose that high, I'm proof I did it twice from that dose the above story was my first. But it's going to take allot of strength and resolve on your part.
Worse experience ever.

Erikmen:
Have you tried a blind reduction, where they don't tell you the dosage amount and some days they reduce? That has been the only way that my old friends got off of it by their own will. Glad to hear your still going strong.

 

[Bomb319]

Maybe for you. Methadone absolutely DOES make me high, even after more than a year of MMT. At the very least it gives me a huge and welcome energy boost, wave of "feeling good" when it kicks in just the same as any other opiate would, and is absolutely NOT placebo in terms of its positive effects. I can completely forget I've taken my dose and get involved in something else until I suddenly notice that warm, opiated feeling creeping up.

By the way, I forgot to mention that despite my high dose, I wasn't even using that much heroin before getting in to rehab. In fact, for several months before getting on the program, all I was doing was high dose Imodium daily (which nevertheless got crazy expensive and could not have been healthy) and only used H when I was able to (money and a connect). Even before then, I never exceeded 0.5 g per day or so. The only reason it climbed so high is because I metabolize it so fast, I'm always sick in the mornings. In fact, 50 mg did about the same thing for me as 220 mg. I kept telling my doctor I was still sick in the AM so she kept increasing the dose, telling me that shouldn't happen when I reach my ideal blood levels - but it did, and still is. Obviously I wouldn't have done it if I would have known since it will be so much harder to eventually taper and quit. But at least for now, it's an essential part of my life for all the reasons I stated above, and so I wouldn't dream of stopping it. It's been enormously helpful. When I think back to my YEARS of truly suffering - unable to leave my bed for days at a time, resorting to stealing ham from the grocery store after a week of not eating a thing because I spent all my money on dope, having to be out and about for hours while sick as fuck just to get my money and meet my guy, times when my guy didn't even show up or was greatly delayed (worst thing ever, by the way) and above all the daily grind required when being an addict and knowing that you will HAVE to find a way to get money and your drug, and finally being outright cheated being sold a bag of salt when the main guy isn't around and you have to resort to going to the srug dealing part of town...not to mention losing all your friends, almost losing family and the sheer physical and pychological AGONY of constant drug obsession and withdrawal...methadone takes care of ALL of that.

So what if I have to visit the clinic once a month, and the pharmacy most days until I get more carries? It won't be much different from getting any other Rx, and it still makes me feel just as good as any other strong opiate I was abusing. Sure, you don't get the instant rush of injecting H, but you know what? It's actually BETTER in its own way since you can enjoy the gradual come-up and know it will last you all day, more than anything else it takes away the daily need to spend all your time on drugs, and it allows the vicious track marks all over my arms and legs to finally fade. For awhile, I couldn't wear t-shirts in public or work at any jobs requiring a short sleeved shirt. I'm only now at the point where most scars are not perceptible from a distance, although I sincerely wish I would have been more careful while using and not constantly re-used needles over and over. I have white scars (some still quite obvious) from many years ago that will never heal.

 

[Bomb319]

My veins are so hard to hit, there were many times I had to sit there turning myself into a pin cushion for half an hour before ending up missing the whole thing entirely anyway. Combine that with having to do it in a public bathroom after obtaining it, and injecting is basically crushingly brutal.

 

[Erikmen]

i dont know how yank drs get away with prescribing these stupidly high doses.' in uk u need a heart test to go over 100ml. 100ml should hold any habit i mean like super high habits. ive read so many people from the US say there on these crazy high doses, its ridiculous imagine losing your script for some reason on anything over 100ml is gonna be a fucking nightmare withdrawl or crazy amount of H to cover it. and the damage to heart, teeth and fuck knows what else. Just crazy

Started early in life..had to operate my great femur which led to other surgeries..
Was on lots of Fentanyl together with breakthrough opiate meds, placed metal implant.
Started with large amount of methadone to quit and quickly decreased to 80 mg, for years.. 7+
Before I was in so much pain that ended up buying H in grand quantity, excellent quality though

Working like hell, 12 hours per day, with kids to take care of..
No excuse.
Now I'm paying the price and had decreased to zero f. Methadone w 10 mg SOS private doctor..

 

[David Wooderson]

Now I'm paying the price and had decreased to zero f. Methadone w 10 mg SOS private doctor..

It's awesome that you're down to 10mg, I gather from your other posts that you are trying to get off it, are you going to jump off with methadone or are you going to switch to suboxone?

 

[Erikmen]

Thanks.
My goal is to jump and qui for good.

I have done it, but on day 6-7, I collapsed..literally. So took 10 mg and again next morning.

I don't want to be dependent on meds anymore. Although it makes me a better person I can't take it anymore.

Quite difficult though! The worst thing I can remember..

But I will make it!!

 

[Erikmen]

Well methadone is an opiod so yes it will cause opiate effects.

You are on a very high dose so it is no surprise you feel addicted to it because you are. It is just a substitute. I guess the whole point is so you can get your life in order without having to do junkie stuff (crimes) and go about being a productive citizen.

I believe the feelings you have are what are reffered to as "liquid handcuffs".

This is exactly why I think methadone should not be doled out by private companies. I suppose if you want to be on methadone for an indefinite period to the rest of your life you are at a good dose. If you want to taper off it is going to be brutal. Methadone is a long acting drug and has a very long half life.

I myself have taken methadone when I couldn't get pain pills and I felt pretty damn good. I have had no problems coming off methadone as I never took it for more than a week or two. I just went back to pills. It is not like I had an rx or went to a clinic.

Anyways I have come off some opiates and opiods with some very long half lifes and it was horrible. Suboxone was the nastiest. Morphine was no walk in the park but it was shorter. Still it took me months for each kick where I tried to stay clean to even be able to walk more than just across my house.

So yeah you got yourself in a bind but as the clinic will tell you, you have been clean X amount of days or months or whatever but you are still taking an opiod. Anyone I know who has gone on methadone has had month long wd's and most relapsed back on to heroin or pills.

I personally would go on methadone and stay on it if I could but I can't afford it and more importantly I take a type of medication that is a big no-no with methadone clinics. I would love to have methadone as my pain rx. I really would. I just would never ditch my anxiety medication for it.

Your case is exactly why methadone should be run by the government and not private clinics. I have no idea as to why it is so expensive as it is literally the world's cheapest pain medication to make and it was made for pain originally back in WW2 by the Germans. But anyways you are just on a legal opiod. It is that simple.

If you want off the stuff, good luck. You might find yourself wanting to get right back on. This is a very common problem. Methadone users have found many ways to increase the methadone "high" and I am not going to get into them because they kill people including people I have known.

Not me, I have already made it through.. 7 years and now zero. It takes time but you shouldn't discourage people like this..don't generalize from what you may think is realistic.

That's the thing, you don't know me.
I have willpower and became quite successful in life regardless of my surgeries, pains or my childhood.

I have my wife, my children my own beliefs about winning based on my experience but you don't know the thinnest thing about me.

Besides I have a great job, it keeps me busy, have been employed since I was 14. Made a great future to my kids, and theirs. No, you don't know me..

I know people who succeeded already 27 years ago being on methadone even longer than me.

If YOU can't, you won't ever understand those who can.

 

[Bomb319]

Hey, quit hijacking my topic, you! j/k

I was gonna say though that despite many people being anti-methadone and calling it "liquid handcuffs", I have not personally had that experience - at least not yet. In Canada or at least in BC you don't have to go to the clinic every day to get your dose; you get it at any old pharmacy like you would for any other prescription. Again, it not only functions as an essential maintenance drug, but also mitigates or completely clears my IBS symptoms, stuffy nose, depression (not always but more often) and even helps my migraines. I see no reason to ever go off of it at this point in time anyway. However, I'm still always hot and sweating a TON all the time - that is annoying as HELL. It also caused me to gain a ton of weight which is very hard to get rid of, even though I don't eat much and what I eat is usually fairly healthy. In less than a year, I shot up to nearly 230 lbs from 180. As far as methadone causing bones and teeth to rot, that is a complete myth and there is no evidence whatsoever to support that. It DOES cause dry mouth however, so indirectly it can harm your teeth if you don't take extra good care of them.