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  • P&S Moderators: Xorkoth | Madness

Nobody has freewill.

Are you referring to lack of freewill in a deterministic sense? If so I couldn't agree with you more. I firmly believe that every one of our actions is a direct consequence of other previously determined events, and that you could theoretically predict the rest of eternity flawlessly if you had the knowledge of every event that previously occurred. Although this would require a seemingly infinite knowledge of literally everything down to sub-atomic particles. Although I don't understand how people disagree with this logic I can understand why some people would want to avoid it, it can be very tedious to get caught up with the idea that everything you do is predetermined and in a way meaningless.
I agree 100%. I mix in the idea of Intelligent Design which sorta gives it meaning by way of the Universe being designed a certain way by an intelligent force.
 
I agree 100%. I mix in the idea of Intelligent Design which sorta gives it meaning by way of the Universe being designed a certain way by an intelligent force.
If creating life, I think an intelligent force would allow for chaos for entertainment and surprises.

I would want an entertainment reality and not just one that works well.

Regards
DL
 
You have no proof it was control or freewill. For all you know I was predetermined to do so since the beginning of time. Do you know what predetermined means?
Who or what do you think would be predetermining things?

What would be the end game for such a game player?

Regards
DL
 
Im quite convinced that free will is an illusion, for a few reasons;

I believe everything is pre determined, not really in the way that everything was planned out before hand, but rather that nature acts with a certain necessaty, that everything that happens - ergo everything we think/do - with the nuance in this dimension (and in this reality), everything could only happen that specific way: nature always takes the way of least resistance, the easyist possibility actually becomes reality...

Also, by now already older, Italian brain research (stated by daniel c dennett in Consious explained) showed that every consious thought we have originates out of our sub consious and that such a tought is already for one second present in the consious mind without we being aware of it (personally I find this to be a bit of a problematic notion since how can one say a thought belongs to the conscious mind without being aware of it? However, this can be logically explained - see how relative logic can be and only makes sense in correlation to certain sets of (subjectively chosen) axioms - by that when signals in a certain way, part and with a certain consistancy in the brain are detected they are considered to be part of either the sub conscious or the conscious mind... This implicates that we do not in any way choose the thoughts we have, or the desires we have, or the things we find interesting and so on and it is clear that all these things determin which actions we take; without having heard about this brain research this is a notion that instinctively seemed quite obvious to me... After all, you dont choose what you like or dislike, you simply do or dont, and this goes for everything that constitutes our self we respect so much and we tend to attach great autonomy to...

Furthermore, we are all product of what is called nature/nurture dilemma, nature meaning we are pre determined by our genetic code and nurture meaning we are pre determined by our environment - imo the ppl stating they are the least influenced by others, media, music, and so on are the most brain washed, imo the only true conviction we can have is that we all are brain washed to the fullest extent and also this notion was implemented on my brain, which I consider to be a self inforcing truth, for as far we can actually speak of truths, since we ultimately can not know anything for sure (we do can deduct from the technological exploitation of science that science must show some correlation with das ding an sich - the thing itself, Im referring to Hegel here who said: das ding an sich ist ein unbekantenes, the thing itself is unknown to us - since technology applies science in creating all kinds of apparatus that actually works with the uttermost precision, which says that the science was able to exactly predict how something would operate given the laws of nature in our universe for as far as we know/understand them), the fact that we cant know anything for sure also implies, at least in some way, that we cant know ourselves and this implies that we can not control ourselves ergo not have freedom of choice: Im willing to accept that this notion might not be the most solid constructed, but some logic seems present imo...

Considering all of this, I am really comfortable stating we most likely are not responsible for ourselves, and this has consequences for such things as punishment for certain actions such as the extreme and to me seemingly horrible imprisonment, which I personally only find justified when an individual is too dangerous to let loose and even then they actually deserve a certain life quality, and furthermore I just dont believe in prison leading to anything good, on the contrary...

A good example of how little free choice we have is the experiment they did with an actor playing up to horrible pain when some subject administers him supposedly electro shocks up to, labeled as such, lethal strength shocks simply because a guy in a white lab coat instructs the subject to, this demonstrates to what ridicoulous extremes we are capable by assuming ones authority, of course this is what lead to genocides and relating to this what Hannah Arendt titled the banality of evil in her book about the Eichmann process about how the horrors of WO II were possible to get that easy constructed.

I believe this text to be a rather solid reasoning enriched with some slight however interesting sidepaths...
 
I believe this text to be a rather solid reasoning enriched with some slight however interesting sidepaths...
For sure.

If the murderer had no free will to stop his crime, mens rea says that we cannot punish him, because he had no choice or evil intent.

We have a limited free will that is only subject to nature and physics.

Even now, you are deciding if you "will" to answer this reply or not.

Regards
DL
 
For sure.

If the murderer had no free will to stop his crime, mens rea says that we cannot punish him, because he had no choice or evil intent.

We have a limited free will that is only subject to nature and physics.

Even now, you are deciding if you "will" to answer this reply or not.

Regards
DL
I dont really have much to add to this, but I wanted to reply with; very well put, to, besides my like, express my liking for what you said.
 
I think this ideology is a cop out. It’s a way for those unhappy with their lives to put blame on an external source. I do believe in probability and in the same vein believe certain events are destined, but even with enough change those nearly certain events can be altered.

-GC
 
I think this ideology is a cop out. those unhappy with their lives to put blame on an external source. I do believe in probability and in the same vein believe certain events are destined, but even with enough change those nearly certain events can be altered.

-GC
I admitt that, besides your rather personal opinion that this is a notion from ppl who are unhappy with their lives, there is something to say for there being enough change possible, by chance, to construct some free will: I say this considering for example possible quantum processes - of which the uncertainty could possibly lead to original thoughts - being active in the brain...
 
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