New here and looking for help

[KellyZ]

Hello everyone, im a 40 something single mom who has struggled with addiction for a good 20 years. My last bout was 4 years ago when i was sent to prison for a year. I came home never wanting to touch opiates again. Abut six months in, I took a part-time position at a restaurant.

As most addicts know, the behaviors at most late night restaurants is not conducive to being sober. I saw the writing on the wall and found myself seeking out people I believed used opiates and put my feelers out there. All the while I knew this would not end well. What makes me hate myself the most, is no matter how long I am off drugs, the pull that I feel tugging me back, no matter the destruction, usually wins out of my dilapidated self-control.

Fast forward a bit, I ended up using, I know where using ends, I go to jail, or ill die. I never wanted to go back to prison again. I sought out or local methadone clinic and began another wild ride. I was on mmt for 2 1/2 years. The highest I got was 160, and then I wanted off.

I got down to 90 and felt horrible everyday. I put on 80plus pounds, I sweat profusely, and overall, I hate life, no joy. I began chatting with someone a few weeks ago and they disclosed to me they take subutex and started it after methadone. He gave me his Dr info and I called and got in very quickly. I went in and I told him I had only stopped taking 90 of mmt just 2 days ago. He said that is very high, normally we want you lower before we switch. But he would give me an appointment 3 days later and they would see where I was at.

I go in 3 days to the dr. and they start me on 4mg of subutex, wait 30 minutes and then were going to check me out. I was fine, didnt feel good, didnt feel bad. The doc writes me for 1 week, taking 8mg twice daily of subutex. Okay, I go fill my script and look at the time and think well I should take the other 4mg. Holy hell unleashed on my body. I have since learned I was in precipitated withdrawal. For 12 hours I thought I was going to die.

I had read on the subutex site that doing the induction, if PW comes on administer 2mg of subutex every 30 minutes until symptoms subside. I started this somewhere around the 8-9hr mark of being in PW. I cannot tell you if that worked or the PW stopped but around the 12hr mark my exhausted body passed out finally. I woke up and realized my legs and arms were no longer twitching uncontrollably. Thank God! I did not feel good but it was no where near what I just felt.

Since then, I have managed to take 2mg of subutex every few hours, again not feeling great but I was able to wash the disgusting sweats off me, and even made a drive to the corner store, however, that took a lot out of me. I came home and collapsed. I think what I am looking to find out is, am I doing this right? I read methadone stays in your system anywhere from 5-10 days, if that is true, I am on day 5 now.

So will the subutex not work until all the methadone is gone? I thought that horrific W/D I experienced was the subutex knocking the methadone off the receptors, am I wrong? I will not take more than 2mg of subutex for fear of experiencing that awful P/W again. I am just at a loss of what I do now.

Anyone have any advice on this? I am not going back to methadone, but I'd like to know when it will be gone and I can start feeling normal again.

Thanks

 

[CFC]

Hey Kelly, so sorry to read about your difficulties. 20 years of addiction must really suck

But welcome to Bluelight from all of us

Can I suggest you post your question directly to the Sober Living forum? The folks there are very knowledgeable and helpful, and should be able to point you in the right direction.

In fact, I'll move your thread there myself, so hopefully you'll get some responses.

Best of luck!
CFC

 

[KellyZ]

Thank you so much! I am just looking for someone to help me through this.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Thanks CFC (Merry Christmas!)

Hello everyone, im a 40 something single mom who has struggled with addiction for a good 20 years. My last bout was 4 years ago when i was sent to prison for a year. I came home never wanting to touch opiates again. Abut six months in, I took a part-time position at a restaurant.

As most addicts know, the behaviors at most late night restaurants is not conducive to being sober. I saw the writing on the wall and found myself seeking out people I believed used opiates and put my feelers out there. All the while I knew this would not end well. What makes me hate myself the most, is no matter how long I am off drugs, the pull that I feel tugging me back, no matter the destruction, usually wins out of my dilapidated self-control.

Fast forward a bit, I ended up using, I know where using ends, I go to jail, or ill die. I never wanted to go back to prison again. I sought out or local methadone clinic and began another wild ride. I was on mmt for 2 1/2 years. The highest I got was 160, and then I wanted off.

I got down to 90 and felt horrible everyday. I put on 80plus pounds, I sweat profusely, and overall, I hate life, no joy. I began chatting with someone a few weeks ago and they disclosed to me they take subutex and started it after methadone. He gave me his Dr info and I called and got in very quickly. I went in and I told him I had only stopped taking 90 of mmt just 2 days ago. He said that is very high, normally we want you lower before we switch. But he would give me an appointment 3 days later and they would see where I was at.

I go in 3 days to the dr. and they start me on 4mg of subutex, wait 30 minutes and then were going to check me out. I was fine, didnt feel good, didnt feel bad. The doc writes me for 1 week, taking 8mg twice daily of subutex. Okay, I go fill my script and look at the time and think well I should take the other 4mg. Holy hell unleashed on my body. I have since learned I was in precipitated withdrawal. For 12 hours I thought I was going to die.

I had read on the subutex site that doing the induction, if PW comes on administer 2mg of subutex every 30 minutes until symptoms subside. I started this somewhere around the 8-9hr mark of being in PW. I cannot tell you if that worked or the PW stopped but around the 12hr mark my exhausted body passed out finally. I woke up and realized my legs and arms were no longer twitching uncontrollably. Thank God! I did not feel good but it was no where near what I just felt.

Since then, I have managed to take 2mg of subutex every few hours, again not feeling great but I was able to wash the disgusting sweats off me, and even made a drive to the corner store, however, that took a lot out of me. I came home and collapsed. I think what I am looking to find out is, am I doing this right? I read methadone stays in your system anywhere from 5-10 days, if that is true, I am on day 5 now.

So will the subutex not work until all the methadone is gone? I thought that horrific W/D I experienced was the subutex knocking the methadone off the receptors, am I wrong? I will not take more than 2mg of subutex for fear of experiencing that awful P/W again. I am just at a loss of what I do now.

Anyone have any advice on this? I am not going back to methadone, but I'd like to know when it will be gone and I can start feeling normal again.

Thanks

Welcome again to SL!

If you transitioned from a dose of 90mg methadone to buprenorphine like that than yes, it makes sense you experienced precipitated withdrawal. Even after five days of methadone. Normally patients should taper down to ~30mg or less of methadone before using buprenorphine to help them detox. That tends to work very well. But a 90mg/day habit of methadone is enough to make the transition to buprenorphine extremely uncomfortable and problematic. I'm sorry to hear you had such a hard time with this.

In any case, I strongly suggest you take at least 2mg buprenorphine twice a day. It should hold you more effectively than 2mg once a day or 1mg twice a day. Because you are coming off such a significant amount of methadone, you can expect the acute withdrawal to last longer than normal. In other words, you'll probably need comfort meds (including but not limited to buprenorphine) for 3-4 weeks. And you would benefit from having non-habit forming comfort meds (gabapentin, a non-habit forming sleep aid, etc) available for the first 6-12 months off.

Beyond that, it sound like you have a super busy life. This can be a blessing and a curse when it comes to recovery. Taking care of a young child is a lot of work. Working is a lot of work. That just tells me it will be really important for you to get out there and explore your options, and really take good care of yourself.

Depending on what city you live in, see if you can't find an in person MBSR program to check out. Learning how to meditate is a great thing to do to help get you through early recovery. Likewise, doing anything you can to take care of yourself is absolutely essential. Exercise, walks, going outside, and stuff you enjoy that is simply fun (music, whatever).

Do you have any expectations in terms of how you'll manage this kind of thing without any form of ORT, working and caring for a young child?

 

[GiNa LyNnxx]

Hello everyone, im a 40 something single mom who has struggled with addiction for a good 20 years. My last bout was 4 years ago when i was sent to prison for a year. I came home never wanting to touch opiates again. Abut six months in, I took a part-time position at a restaurant.

As most addicts know, the behaviors at most late night restaurants is not conducive to being sober. I saw the writing on the wall and found myself seeking out people I believed used opiates and put my feelers out there. All the while I knew this would not end well. What makes me hate myself the most, is no matter how long I am off drugs, the pull that I feel tugging me back, no matter the destruction, usually wins out of my dilapidated self-control.

Fast forward a bit, I ended up using, I know where using ends, I go to jail, or ill die. I never wanted to go back to prison again. I sought out or local methadone clinic and began another wild ride. I was on mmt for 2 1/2 years. The highest I got was 160, and then I wanted off.

I got down to 90 and felt horrible everyday. I put on 80plus pounds, I sweat profusely, and overall, I hate life, no joy. I began chatting with someone a few weeks ago and they disclosed to me they take subutex and started it after methadone. He gave me his Dr info and I called and got in very quickly. I went in and I told him I had only stopped taking 90 of mmt just 2 days ago. He said that is very high, normally we want you lower before we switch. But he would give me an appointment 3 days later and they would see where I was at.

I go in 3 days to the dr. and they start me on 4mg of subutex, wait 30 minutes and then were going to check me out. I was fine, didnt feel good, didnt feel bad. The doc writes me for 1 week, taking 8mg twice daily of subutex. Okay, I go fill my script and look at the time and think well I should take the other 4mg. Holy hell unleashed on my body. I have since learned I was in precipitated withdrawal. For 12 hours I thought I was going to die.

I had read on the subutex site that doing the induction, if PW comes on administer 2mg of subutex every 30 minutes until symptoms subside. I started this somewhere around the 8-9hr mark of being in PW. I cannot tell you if that worked or the PW stopped but around the 12hr mark my exhausted body passed out finally. I woke up and realized my legs and arms were no longer twitching uncontrollably. Thank God! I did not feel good but it was no where near what I just felt.

Since then, I have managed to take 2mg of subutex every few hours, again not feeling great but I was able to wash the disgusting sweats off me, and even made a drive to the corner store, however, that took a lot out of me. I came home and collapsed. I think what I am looking to find out is, am I doing this right? I read methadone stays in your system anywhere from 5-10 days, if that is true, I am on day 5 now.

So will the subutex not work until all the methadone is gone? I thought that horrific W/D I experienced was the subutex knocking the methadone off the receptors, am I wrong? I will not take more than 2mg of subutex for fear of experiencing that awful P/W again. I am just at a loss of what I do now.

Anyone have any advice on this? I am not going back to methadone, but I'd like to know when it will be gone and I can start feeling normal again.

Thanks

maybe you took the subutex to soon.. you have to wait until you are on percipitated withdrawal, pretty much wait as long as you can tolerate and then start it.. I am on suboxone, also I go to AA meeting (I prefer AA) almost every day, I have a sponsor and I'm working the steps and it truly works... it took me relapsing a million times until I actually listened to recovering addicts and now I see.. it absolutely works if you work it

 

[GiNa LyNnxx]

In my opinion subutex is a better choice.. I know people on both and from what I hear it's definitely the better one out of methadone vs subutex/suboxone.. when I left detox I went home and took naloxone and boy what a mistake!!!! I went into withdrawal times 100.. I actually had to go to the ER so just try and follow what your dr says and you will be just fine,, I have faith in you...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Whether or not methadone or buprenorphine/naloxone is more appropriate depends entirely on the individual. Buprenorphine was helpful for me, but it didn't work very well in terms of cravings. Long story short, methadone saved my life.

I spent years going through hell because my family and treatment professionals did everything they could to dissuade me from trying something like buprenorphine, let alone methadone. Turns out it was precisely what I needed. And getting off it wasn't at all like the horror stories you hear. It took a while (1.5 years to be precise), but it wasn't particularly uncomfortable or unmanageable given how I had learned to manage things by that point.

Just saying, different strokes for different folks.

The OP's case highlights the difficulty at getting off high doses of methadone using buprenorphine. It just doesn't work out well, because it requires the patient wait for a loooong time as the high dose of methadone clears their system (up to two nasty weeks in extreme cases) before they can safely get on buprenorphine. It is waaaaay more manageable to get off methadone using buprenorphine when transitioning from a lower dose of methadone than what the OP ended up doing.

And even then, when I got off methadone (final dose = 14mg) I had to wait about three days before I could safely take buprenorphine; other meds can make the wait time as the methadone clears the system less uncomfortable thankfully.

 

[GiNa LyNnxx]

I just stating my opinion.. I heard methadone gets you high.. and it is hard to get off of.. apparently you got lucky!

 

[GiNa LyNnxx]

So why did you switch from methadone to suboxone?

 

[Jekyl Anhydride]

So why did you switch from methadone to suboxone?

Depending on the individual it can make transitioning to complete abstinence easier. But like with anything it has it's advantages and drawbacks.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I just stating my opinion.. I heard methadone gets you high.. and it is hard to get off of.. apparently you got lucky!

Nope, I'm actually in the norm in term of what happens when methadone is used properly. When used properly it is statistically more effective than any other form of treatment for severe opioid use disorder, and has decades of research backing it up. Unfortunately given the intense stigma surrounding methadone it has a horrible image, so most people have no idea how to use it properly. But that has nothing inherently to do with methadone - it's entirely about how people treat methadone in our society. Garbage in garbage out.

So why did you switch from methadone to suboxone?

Along with gabapentin, clonidine and other meds, buprenorphine is a first line detox med. I used buprenorphine to help me transition off 2.5 years of methadone.

Transitioning to buprenorphine can be tricky, but buprenorphine is really useful for this purpose. Either patiences (as I did) will take it for 1-2 weeks to deal with the acute withdrawal or they will do what is called an extended taper protocol (includes transition from methadone to buprenorphine, stabilizing, then slowly tapering off the buprenorphine over the course of six months with auxiliary support).

Do you know what the different been buprenorphine and methadone really is? I mean in terms of pharmacological action? Methadone is a full agonist (with particular properties - every opioid has slightly different properties) whereas buprenorphine is a mixed agonist/antagonist (Narcan/naloxone would be a full antagonist; antagonists reverse the effects of opioid agonists, and opioid agonists are what get you high - like morphine, heroin, etc).

Methadone is used for treatment precisely because it's an agonist though. There are many reasons why it is ideal for ongoing treatment: long action means taking it once a day normally works for most people; at a certain point patients develop a tolerance to their methadone (normally around 80mg) that makes it really hard to get high from other opioids (although OD is still possible); methadone also acts on other parts of the brain that opioids like oxycodone and opiates like morphine do not (NMDAr system, etc), so at a certain point it can have a more powerful antidepressant effect than other opioids.

Every bit of research out there shows methadone is more favorable than buprenorphine when it comes to control cravings, especially when treating severe substance use disorder.

Different strokes, for different folks, like I said.

There are plenty of people methadone would be ENTIRELY inappropriate for. That can be said of Suboxone, buprenorphine and any other form of treatment though.

The craziest thing is that addiction actually has very, very little to do with just drug use. Drug use may or may not be a part of it (if someone has been on buprenorphine it properly is a part), but it goes far beyond that.