Benzos Need Advice for Phenazepam -> Diazepam Taper

[Cone]

I've been attempting to formulate a safe strategy to ween off of my 2-year long phenazepam habit.

Some sources say that the dose equivalence of Diaz to Phenaz is 10mg:1mg, while other say its 20mg:1mg.

While I'm inclined to believe the latter, further research has revealed that Phenaz shares more structural similarities to Delorazepam than any other benzo, and the wikipedia benzo equivalence chart lists that as a 1:10 dosage ratio.

If it's 1:10, then I'm clear with my current stash to begin a taper @ a conservative 5% dose reduction per week lasting the next 160 days or so.

if, however, the dose equivalence is 1:20 as listed by other sources, I'll be forced to start my taper at a much more "uncomfortable" 10% reduction per week, which could prove impossible/difficult to sustain (10% per week is considered to be a "high" rate of taper).

My current tolerance dictates that 3mg blood plasma levels of phenaz is my "barrier" where I begin to hit the hard w/d symptoms of insomnia and the debilitating mental aspects of BZD w/d.

While I could start my taper @ 40mg diaz per day (considering a 1:20 dose ratio), I'll run out of diaz in 80 days rather than 160 days. In addition, I also run the risk of becoming even more physically dependent on BZD than I already am by starting at a higher dose of diaz than necessary.

I have my plan charted out on an excel spreadsheet already.

Additionally:would the longer half life of diaz help me stabilize at a lower dose of diaz than would seem necessary as the diazepam levels "build up" and level off? or should I play it safe and go with the 1:20 dose ratio and just acquire more diaz at a later date and continue the taper at this rate?

I could theoretically split the difference and start my taper at a 1:15 ratio, but again I run the risk of unnecessarily spiking my BZD tolerance further.

I don't really have enough diaz to experiment with, so I'd like to hear BL's opinion on where I should start with my taper. If 30mg's/day of diaz will be enough, then I can continue to taper at a 7.5% reduction per week which is still rather high.

If 20mg's/day is enough, then I can taper at 5% which is within the range of acceptable according to the ashton manual.

I tried finding info on this specific taper on BenzoBuddies.com, but nobody seems to be in a similar situation. BL also has little info on this situation as well.

Regardless, i plan on starting the taper today and would rather not waste time and precious BZD material monkeying around to find the right dose if I can get some solid information about where I should start.

I've mapped out my taper plan on excel, and plan on sticking to it. While not ideal, I'm stuck using pills instead of the preferred liquid diazepam taper. This limits my options as far as "splitting" doses is concerned, so my dosage reduction is at the mercy of my ability to "cut" pills, which becomes difficult to measure past cutting a 10mg pill into 2.5mg doses. Therefore I'll be executing my taper at 2.5mg dosage cuts every 4-5 days at 1:20, or 2.5mg's every 10 days at the 1:10 ratio.

If you guys think benzobuddies.com would be more helpful, I'll take this issue there instead. I just figured BL had much more experience with drugs such as phenaz since BB seems to deal strictly with people tapering off of known quantities of scripted, "legal" benzos.

Any information/insight would be tremendously helpful.

Thanks.

 

[Larc]

How much phenazapam were you using per day? Any breaks?

 

[Cone]

For the first year and a half I used 2-6mg at a time then waited a couple days for plasma levels to drop before taking more, so my schedule was a bit scattered. At one point I believe I let my plasma levels drop to like .2 or less and felt fine. But about 7 months ago I started doing opes (again), running out quick, and using phen to knock myself out when in W/D

I'd use about 12 mg's for my "KO" dose to sleep when w/ding from opes. I began to take 12 mg quite frequently, and with a half life of 60 hours that meant I had tons floating around my system at some point. Sometimes I'd take a 12 mg dose 3 nights in a row just to knock me out, then throughout the week take another 12 or so. My plasma levels must have been like 36 plus at that point.

Anyway, now I'm trying to kick with a fucked up schedule like that. Not quite sure where to start lol.

All I know now is that when I hit about 3mg my w/d set in.

 

[username13]

Well, first off I wanted to say best of luck to you, hope the taper plan works out. I had to come off 10 mg diaz the hard way. Wasnt fun.

With regard to a liquid solution, if you wanted to get your pills into liquid you know you can use some milk and make a milk solution right?

Also it is very hard to just say that x number will work for you, for many reasons. Those numbers for equivilancy(sp?) from wiki are more of a general thing and i feel somewhat objective. Best to see how well your body responds to the crossover.

Also be sure to study up on cyp450 the enzyme in the liver that eliminates diaz. Know your inducers and inhibitors, which i think can play an important role in helping stabilize your dose once you cross over.

So the question is if you have a safe strategy but only based upon numbers that may or may notbe correct kind of hard to say, but any taper is bette than none. Slower is bette imho. Ct benzos sucks, but there is life after benzos. This too shall pass - annoying cliche speak i know.

Bye now.

 

[Larc]

Use the 1;10 ration, at the minimum this will keep any life threatening symptoms away. At best, you won't feel many withdrawals.

You have been using for awhile and your doses are nothing to shrug off, but we've seen much worse cases (especially with phen). You sound like you have thought this through. Be prepared for feeling crappy, don't think for a second your getting away Scott free.

Like many drugs, PAWS is the real toughy.

 

[Cone]

Bump.

Okay so I've decided that I'm going to start off with a low dose of diaz until I reach the point where the w/d's become blatantly noticeable and then titrate up from there with diaz to find my happy medium.

Right now I'm living on 10mg diaz once a day, been taking just one pill for the past 3 days and so far so good.

I've been able to sleep without issue. My last dose of phenaz was ~6mg 4 days ago, and 8 mg's about a week ago so there's still a good amount of phen still floating around in my system (which is likely why I've been able to get by on such a low dose of diaz so far).

At this point, I should be approaching my 3mg plasma level "threshold" that I found. I imagine in the next few days I'll need to up my dose of diaz to 20mg or 30mg then I'll start my actual taper from there.

I'm aware I can still liquid measure the tablets, but from past experience benzos really don't dissolve well in anything less than high-proof isopropyl (70%+) or high-proof ethanol.

I know some people recommend whole milk but I don't trust the solubility of benzos in such a medium since there's been little to no research on how much actually gets absorbed into the milk solution. I could be taking 1/2 the dose needed without even knowing it, and leaving a sludge of concentrated diaz at the bottom of the solution. Plus I don't want to be storing a heavly benzo-laced milk solution in my fridge because someone else might accidentally consume it.

If anything I'll dissolve ~25 tabs in 91% Isopropyl using as little alcohol as possible and dose use a 1 mL dropper to accurately scale out my dose if I need to make a cut which is less than 1/4 of a 10mg pill. I'll then pull out the respective amount with the dropper and evap the isopropyl after applying it to a saltine cracker (much like how I dosed phenaz).

So far so good, but the actual taper hasn't started yet. I'm still in the limbo stage of switching from one god-awful long half-life benzo to the other, so we'll see what the coming week brings.

EDIT - Also, since benzo's are fat-soluble, is it possible that my long term use has led to stored up benzo's in my fatty tissue in a manner similar to THC, leading to higher blood plasma levels than predicted by a simple elimination half-life calculation?

 

[Cone]

Still feeling pretty stable on 20mg's of diazepam a day.

Thank god. This means I have enough diaz to perform a 5% taper over the next ~160 days. I'm just not sure if cutting my dose by 2.5mg's will be too much of a cut, and instead I should cut by 1.25mg's a week.

Any suggestions?

Sorry for making this a personal blog. If mods feel the need to close this thread then by all means go ahead : )

EDIT - My only reason for making this thread in the first place was to hopefully get some feedback from people who have actually tapered off Phenaz with Diaz. It doesn't seem like many people have been in this situation, as most people who need to taper off GABAergics are doing so with legitimately prescribed benzos, the majority of which don't share the same "unique" characteristics of Phenaz.

I'm starting to believe my Phenaz wasn't actually 100% pure in the first place, which is why I've been able to get away with such a dosage step down.

 

[andyveg]

I have a Phenazepam addiction too. Im trying to cross over to Diazepam.Just wondering how your crossover to Diazepam is going .Hope you are doing well.
Many THanks

 

[KickStand]

I feel horrible asking this on such a thread, but, with not exactly a benzo addiction, and trouble finding doctors in my area, as well as being flagged in the medical system as a "Cannabis Dependent", it can be an annoyance. I suffer from severe anxiety as well as shizoaffective, so, I was wondering, if anybody knew a reliable place to obtain phen? I have done hours of research on it, and understand the risks involved, as well as the fact that every dose will have to be measured out. I could only find 2 sites. The most reliable, not currently selling, due to to legal issues, and the other, being $45.00 for 5mg... If anyone knows anything that could help, it would be greatly appreciated. I would prefer for replies to be through private message, so I receive the email to remember to check this site. Also, I normally take 4-6mg of alprazolam daily when I have it, especially about a week into having them. But, this just isn't realistic. I would also like something with more mellow effects. Anybody have an idea of what mg of Phen I should start with? I was thinking roughly .5mg and waiting ~5 hours to see how I'm feeling? Thanks for feedback.
EDIT - I'm not sure if this is considering quasi-legal? I apologise if this is against the terms of use, and if so, feel free to delete my post/account.