My tamoxifen experience - it sucks, restlessness, fatigue, fogged head.

whippa craka

whippa craka

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First off, Voxide I would like a response from you :)

For the sake of other people searching for issues I had like mine I am making this topic because I was unable to find much of anything anywhere. The only Pro hormone I have taken is M-drol, orally. I did one 4 week cycle at 20mg/day and then started Tamoxifen at 20mg/day. About 3 days in I quit because I felt like death. Joints achy, fatigued and easily tempered. All of which was expected with a decrease in my estrogen. Then I decided to give it another try.

I experienced a small amount of gyno and I could tell my system wasn't where it should have been due to my lack of pct. A few months later I tried another cycle and stuck with the PCT. Taking the tamoxifen this time wasn't as bad, I could feel it working but It was bearable. Keep in mind I was smoking weed regularly throughout this whole ordeal. About 17 days in I started feeling extremely fatigued, restless, fog headed and I could barely sleep more then 3 hours a night, similar to my first trial and error. I guess this is menopause is like lol. I fought through it for 5 more days and at a point I went to a doctor and got some ambien to help me sleep because I was sooooo tired. Now I am tapering off and feeling better. I realize all these are side effects of inhibiting estrogen in your body, but I posted this because it seems like most people have no issue taking the drug at all but I am able to read about a few others who have the same miserable sides. Also, at the peak of the terrible feelings I was smoking ALOT, and it was almost making me dillusional. The combo of weed and nolva seemed to be screwing with my head somehow, I can't even describe the fogged feeling and thoughts I was having.

To sum up this post for others:
What tamoxifen did to me:
  • Tamoxifen can make you feel terrible. Achey, restless, unable to sleep, fatigued and being able to sleep for 10 hours and then feeling like you can sleep another 10.
  • Loss of appetite, I would have to force food down my throat, no matter how good it was.
  • When first taking Nolva it takes a couple days to notice it's effects, but while in the middle of PCT though if I missed a dose I could easily notice feeling better later that day.
  • While the effects of Nolva was at its worse, I would trial smoking and not smoking, and cannabis definitely has a weird effect with the drug that almost even made me feel suicidal at time (just thoughts of such).

I hope this answers some questions for folks if they run into any issues like mine. I was able to find some information for all these issues with a very small percentage of people experiencing such serious sides, but hey, it happens. Some of us just aren't 'compatible' I guess.
 
I'm just started my last week of tamoxifen. I've been tapering it off each week (20mg, 15mg, 10mg, 5mg) and I've been keen. I've experienced mild temperament and depression. Then again I recently suffered a complete separation of my shoulder tendons (requiring surgery) so I'm unable to workout or eat like I used to (I've lost about 13lb in a month). I'm also smoking pot in addition to being prescribed pain medication. I'm not working right now because my employer won't let me return until my next check-up. So that depression is probably from seeing all my work go down the drain (and struggling with identity loss).

My last cycle (and 1st one) I took 20mg ED for 4 weeks. I definitely experienced short temperament but no depression or sleeping issues. I also smoked weed during this.

If you haven't already I'd try tapering it next time. Tapering allows your body to slowly make it's own T on it's own. Using 20mg for 4 weeks could cause an estro-rebound.
 
WC

As you have already started a thread about tapering off of tamoxifen, can I merge the two together? This is more like an update to your original post, and I think it would be useful for both threads to be merged together. :)
 
IMO.. Tamoxifin is overrated.. Clomid has a much more thrououghly studied history and the research behind it for returning male fertility and testicle mass to regular levels is much more in depth if you do a pubmed search than Nolva...

Stick to Clomid, IMO.
 
IMO the only real research i've seen is a whole bunch of 'IMO'. I've talked with many knowledgeable folks, you could go either way. I see alot of people starting rumors, please don't be one of them.
 
Honestly, PCT drugs are pretty variable with their sides. People feel like shit on Clomid, hence why they go with Nolva, vice versa. The weed may be a an outside factor affecting the way the Nolva was working. Cut that out next time, and see how it goes. Better yet, try Clomid. I'd would even go out on a limb and say that those aren't sides from the Nolva, they're sides from your system still recovering due to that horrible cycle with no PCT.
 
I think Voxide is correct. I don't think the cannabis is causing these symptoms, to be honest, but I think that Voxide explained this as well as possible.

It is always possible something else is going on with your body/health that you aren't aware of yet, however I am sure most times this isn't what someone wants to hear. Again, the average user who posts in Steroid Discussion is probably going to be taking better care of their bodies than the average user who posts in Other Drugs, but that doesn't mean much in the long run (since people can post in both forums).

Have you used tamoxifen before? Has anything like this happened to you in the past while on anything, AAS or otherwise?
 
Captain.Heroin said:
I think Voxide is correct. I don't think the cannabis is causing these symptoms, to be honest, but I think that Voxide explained this as well as possible.

It is always possible something else is going on with your body/health that you aren't aware of yet, however I am sure most times this isn't what someone wants to hear. Again, the average user who posts in Steroid Discussion is probably going to be taking better care of their bodies than the average user who posts in Other Drugs, but that doesn't mean much in the long run (since people can post in both forums).

Have you used tamoxifen before? Has anything like this happened to you in the past while on anything, AAS or otherwise?
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Yes, I had tried it after a previous 3 weeks oral cycle and after 3-4 days I couldn't stand it. 8 Months down the road I did the same cycle, stuck with the tamox for 23 days and then had to get off... and now I feel great.
 
First problem - your cycle is hardly a cycle. A cycle should have a Testosterone Base. Otherwise your HPTA is shut down and you are not replacing it. Why do you feel like shit, it could be a combination of many things but mentally you have been shut down and nolva is plenty to kick you back in gear. UNTIL the 4 weeks it takes for nolva to really do this trick, however, you are going to be left with practically no testosterone. So sure, you will have no appateite. Feeling suicidal - sure - no test once again you will feel like shit.

When you run a test only cycle, you will realize how powerful this hormone is - I feel like king shit on testosterone , I can eat / lift / fuck just about anything.

Guys your body is simple - please research before you just pop pills - especially these horrible substances you are using. Do not blame the nolva. Ffs.
 
theartofwar said:
First problem - your cycle is hardly a cycle. A cycle should have a Testosterone Base. Otherwise your HPTA is shut down and you are not replacing it. Why do you feel like shit, it could be a combination of many things but mentally you have been shut down and nolva is plenty to kick you back in gear. UNTIL the 4 weeks it takes for nolva to really do this trick, however, you are going to be left with practically no testosterone. So sure, you will have no appateite. Feeling suicidal - sure - no test once again you will feel like shit.

When you run a test only cycle, you will realize how powerful this hormone is - I feel like king shit on testosterone , I can eat / lift / fuck just about anything.

Guys your body is simple - please research before you just pop pills - especially these horrible substances you are using. Do not blame the nolva. Ffs.
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Thanks but no thanks. I took mdrol, an oral steroid, which is barely a cycle to begin with. After my first 'cycle', I was fine. It was a tad harder to get her up and I think there was a very very very small amount of gyno. I was fine. I did my second cycle and did the tamox after, and now Im off the tamox and I am back to 100% before I was my first cycle. Any gyno that was there is 100% gone and my dick couldn't be happier lol. It's been atleast a month now since I stopped the nolva and I can feel myself getting better every week.

Your telling me inhibiting estrogen doesnt cause all those symptoms? It's called menopause. It was the nolva.
 
Where did I ever say anything about gyno ?

I also never stated what Nolva does or does not do. I am sorry but obviously a month later you will be feeling better lol .... I've ran every AE out there and even with letrozole the biggest prob was sore joints.

Anyway, you are running mdrol, which basically sums up you and anything you have to say lol. (since you have opted to get all tough guy about your "cycle" - lol - ).

That said - I do hope whatever your goals are, you achieve, and that you continue to train w heart and dedication.
 
I would second the suggestion to run a testosterone only cycle, only because it is a good idea to when beginning the use of steroids.

I also would never recommend using oral steroids. There is nothing wrong with IM injections, and if you are squeamish with needles, steroids aren't for you.

With that being said, it is your body, and you can do what you want with it.

I also second TAoW's sentiments that I hope you get to achieve your goals. :) Lifting is rewarding in many ways and I know we are all here to get decent results.
 
Alright, here's my situation.

Last year, after some blood tests, they found out methadone was killing my testosterone levels and also my cortisol levels slightly. After about 6 months of treatment, he also gave me a pituitary gland MRI test to take. Thanks to my shitty insurance I have to rely on government insurance, only 10 months later did I have that MRI scan done. Apparently it's much more important to verify the pituitary gland's state before starting any testosterone (I use Delatestryl subcutaneously once a week, but lowered it to half my dose and only every two weeks myself because : I started to have some mass appear under both my nipples and general chest area. My methadone doc identified this as gynecomastia and was switched to suboxone, which supposedly doesn't fuck with testosterone levels like full agonist opioids. Then things got worse, I got two pointy but luckily very small manboobs, still, they make my aerolas look like a girl's with big tits large...Thankfully, it doesn't show too much, I'm much more concerned with the extreme pain to the touch, similar bumps appearing on the upper part of my armpit and sometimes electrical shock like pains to the left side where it hurts more. I went to see an endocrinologist last october, all she did was script me Cortef (fuck that shit, it made me swell 50lbs and have really bizarre EXTREMELY painful adrenal gland/kidney pain). I tapered off it and then I was fine on that front.

The bitch of an endocrino was mad, she at first wanted to see me every 3 months, but because of my job (inventory, we go really far away places from my hometown), so calling her this morning resulted in the secretary telling me there was a note saying she only wanted me to see me in october since I missed an appointment.

My suboxone doctor just by touching said it was gynecomastia, so I get an ultrasound scheduled.
I had an ultrasound of my nipples and chest area yesterday, the dumbass of a radiologist said I didn't have gynecomastia (what's with those red streaks on the sides showing rapid growth of tissue like when one gets fat really fast/loses weight too fast) but that my left nipple area had something, it's the most painful of the two, he said he didn't know what it was, said maybe it was "fatty tissue necrosis" and I really didn't like the sound of that. So I got an appointment with my Men's Health Doc, the one who had me on Delatestryl due to almost fatally low testosterone levels and had me fax in an MRI scan demand. He wanted to see me too back then last fall but fall is when most of the job is done when working in Inventory so, I couldn't go, especially since the secretary didn't call my cellphone but my landline and said I had an appointment the VERY NEXT DAY. Of course I missed it. But at least now today I didn't have a problem to get an appointment near the end of the month, so we can discuss my pituitary gland and if it's fucked (my optometrist when I was telling her about my health problems assumed it was my pituitary gland that was swollen which caused my left eye to not be as precise as it should be when you do that test with the joystick and push it whenever you see dots appear in that white field when looking into a device, sorry I don't know how that's called, then I told her I didn't have my MRI scan done yet and she was, she was very suspicious and wants me to have a field vision test but those are 25 bucks and I hate paying for anything medical (spoiled canadian, I know).

I'm going to discuss anti-estrogens with the men's health doc, this medication I guess, I can't seem to find any. Will it get rid of the slight manboobs with painful cysts under it ? I see people disliking this medication but looks like I have no choice. I also want whatever dead tissue that might be in this left nipple that hurts as fuck (even on suboxone + any anti-inflammatory you can think of) and sometimes feel so full like I can't breathe correctly, but I breathe fine, just this pressing sensation on the left side of my chest removed, which is covered in my province when caused by medication. As for this medication : Will it be a good idea? Cos I'm pretty sure that's what he will script me, sure not everyone gets side effects, but since I got on methadone (even after ditching it for bupe), it seems that hormonal medication is full of side effects, something I ain't used to, I never get side effects from drugs (well, those I am familiar with, bupe, benzos, only get side effects when I LACK them, obviously).

Sorry for the long post but I wanted everything to be clear here so that nobody asks a question about something I already made clear in this post (happens too often wherever I go OTI).

I'm browsing using multiple search engines, and it seems like this medication is the one that appears all the time and no others. Give me your opinions bros. And no, never used testosterone for the narcissistic reasons (which is what my GP at the beginning was wondering because of my so ultra-low amount of testosterone, nevermind I could get boners and have sex and be into it, sometimes I wonder if my blood tests weren't skewed because I had them originally taken after 2 days of sex and dexedrine without sleep, 48 hours + later I drove by the hospital and had my blood tested then) like some idiots like ClubbinGuido was trolling everyone here for.
 
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My notes on Delatestryl state it is dosed at 200mg/ml.. (0.5ml is recommended with subQ).. I'm unsure if this dosing schedule would be responsible for gyno, but something clearly is..!!
Try ventro-glute 100mg/week..
The recommended treatment for gyno is Nolvadex 40mg 2-4 weeks, here is some info on nolvas action I posted previously:

The alpha receptor causes proliferation of cells, the beta receptor inhibits proliferation and increases differentiation, or the maturing process into a fully functioning cell. So when estrogen increases proliferation starts, and when it reaches a certain threshold more binds to the more abundant beta receptor slowing proliferation and increasing differentiation. This is relevant because though tamoxifen also binds the beta receptor it does so with less affinity than estradiol and its unclear as to whether it activates or blocks the beta receptor. The net result is that proliferation is halted by tamoxifen’s negative effect on the alpha receptor, but estradiol is left in circulation to activate the beta receptor. The beta receptor offers us several benefits, but here specifically it will further inhibit proliferation (tissue growth) and increase differentiation. Terminal differentiation aborts the proliferative capacity of a cell. So each cell that terminally differentiates is one more cell that won’t be replicating. These cells now await apoptosis (cell death) at the hand of androgen-mediated action..

One thing I do want to impart on people is that tamoxifen treatment must continue for some time to be effective. Too often tamoxifen is reported to be ineffective for acute treatment because it isn’t used sufficiently long. tamoxifen inhibits the growth of breast tissue, but does not reduce it on its own. This is mediated by your androgen levels as a male and an AAS user. These cells do not dissolve, they are ultimately destroyed by genomic signals. This takes some time. On top of that early cessation risks rebound effects. tamoxifen does not address circulating estradiol so early cessation will only lead to estradiol immediately binding ERalpha again, and barring any changes, starting problems all over again. Longer treatment with tamoxifen reduces ERalpha density (2), which only further promotes the beta-receptor mediated positive effects. It’s perfectly possible for tamoxifens effect to become visible after cessation, no doubt this is one primary reasons why treatments prescribed by quacks are sometimes deemed effective : they are administered at the time the cells are being destroyed, so that to a lay person it may seem that the medication is actually reducing his gyno. If ACTUAL tissue shrinks within days, its probably not what you are on right now, so if you took something because you thought tamoxifen did not work, and “it cleared up in three days” (I’m not kidding, I hear this stuff every day) its likely it was the tamoxifen and not the other drug.
If it turns out you are prone to gyno (early onset of gyno with testosterone only at moderate doses) you can always opt to make the needed changes in the future (preventive treatment with an AI or a SERM)....
 
Thanks for the info brutah, I hear most people are scripted once a month 200mg/ml (0.5ml subQ) (exactly the treatment I got), but I got it once a week, seemed appropriate at the time, but dunno, could be excessive. I keep wondering if that sex-o-thon I had on dexedrine for 48 hours with my ex gf last year and having my blood tests taken as I took the bus back home, I happened to have my blood tests requests and it was 8 hours in the morning and I had fasted for more than 8 hours so to me it was an ideal time to just go get those blood tests finally. Then my doctor tells me, you have 67ug of testosterone in your blood (after about 8 orgasms in the last 48 hours without any sleep) and a moderately low cortisol level....I keep wondering if all that treatment was an error in itself, of course during those 48 hours I didn't eat much, didn't sleep at all and was just totally wrecked so that's why I didn't mind waiting in the blood tests waiting room area of the hospital, I had my headphones for my mp3 player and that was it. Maybe those 2 hormones were down because of that and that was it....

I'm not so tempted in telling my Men's Health doc about this, the damage is already done anyway. I also see in the Delatestryl pamphlet that one shouldn't use this if one has severe respiratory syndrome. I have very early discovered and reversible emphysema at this point, got to know about this about 3 months ago, so I cut my cigarettes habit in 2 (only half a pack a day now) and gonna do the same again soon, then get rid of them. Could it be why after doing my (now) bi-weekly shots of (0,25mg), like I said I decided by myself to cut the dose in half, same as the frequency due to those horrible bodily side effects, 3-4 days after I get that pressure in the left part of my chest and breathing deeply is very difficult, I now use my Symbicort inhaler way more than ever, especially since I want to stop this slight emphysema dead in its tracks, I expect not to be smoking tobacco anymore in about 2 months. Can't wear patches, they raise my BP like hell due to the continuous nicotine intake....I'd buy an e-cig but those are illegal to sell in Canada, you can order some online, all we get here are those ridiculous polythylene glycol electronic tubes with flavour, and some idiots say it work...dat placebo, they really should make 6 strengths of patches, step 1 has my heart go mad, step 2 has me feeling quite unnerved and step 3 is useless to start with.

I'm just 31, I hate speaking like I'm fucking 55 in androposis!
 
I ended up being scripted anastrazole 1mg once a day, after being explained correctly what it does by the best doc I have ever seen, too bad he's only my general Men's Health doc, because he's also a GP and I would so switch.

He said if I didn't like the side effects to get an appointment in a month so he switches to something else/lowers dose. Good news, the pituitary gland MRI I took about 2 weeks in my delatestyl sc treatment. It is absolutely fine.That's one hell of a relief, so right now we're not really understand what is causing low T and lowish C (cortisol), the anti-oestrogen will mean more test in my body as my own body due to the med will turn oestrogen into test....we'll see. What do you guys think of that medication?

If I should make a new thread please tell me.
 
Cam520 said:
IMO.. Tamoxifin is overrated.. Clomid has a much more thrououghly studied history and the research behind it for returning male fertility and testicle mass to regular levels is much more in depth if you do a pubmed search than Nolva...

Stick to Clomid, IMO.
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He had Gyno, how is clomifen gonna help with that?

I didn't feel bad off tamoxifen at all by the way, was taking it along with HCG.
 
I know my street cred is low, because I have very few posts, but I've tried a whole shitload of PCTs.

I've tried TAMOX, CLOMID, TOREMIFENE, ROLAXIFENE, 6-OXO (not a SERM), HCGENERATE, ETC.

By far my best experiences have been with Toremifene. Literally within 4-5 days, my balls drop and tingle and I know I'm producing LH again. I can usually recall the exact time when I feel the 'balls drop. It's kind of funny. Oh yeah, no gyno.

Tamox.. Not Bad. But takes longer - took 2 weeks to feel sexual function get better.

Clomid.. Omg. The worst ever. Horrible sides. Eye floaters, social anxiety, started crying and acting like a little girl. It was so bad I didn't even care to measure how long it took for my sex drive to come back.

Rolaxifene.. Comparable to Torem (meaning no sides), but took about 1-2 wks for sex drive to return.

And that's it for SERMs. Go Torem and you'll never go back. Yeah, it's a little bit more expensive, but it's your BALLS we're talking about here.

As for HCGenerate.. a great aid, but not always necessary.
 
WC2 said:
I know my street cred is low, because I have very few posts, but I've tried a whole shitload of PCTs.

I've tried TAMOX, CLOMID, TOREMIFENE, ROLAXIFENE, 6-OXO (not a SERM), HCGENERATE, ETC.

By far my best experiences have been with Toremifene. Literally within 4-5 days, my balls drop and tingle and I know I'm producing LH again. I can usually recall the exact time when I feel the 'balls drop. It's kind of funny. Oh yeah, no gyno.

Tamox.. Not Bad. But takes longer - took 2 weeks to feel sexual function get better.

Clomid.. Omg. The worst ever. Horrible sides. Eye floaters, social anxiety, started crying and acting like a little girl. It was so bad I didn't even care to measure how long it took for my sex drive to come back.

Rolaxifene.. Comparable to Torem (meaning no sides), but took about 1-2 wks for sex drive to return.

And that's it for SERMs. Go Torem and you'll never go back. Yeah, it's a little bit more expensive, but it's your BALLS we're talking about here.

As for HCGenerate.. a great aid, but not always necessary.
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Regards the side effects from Clomid.. What was your daily dose..?
 
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