My PCT - gtg?

B

Bone14

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
814
Hi BL,

I've seen some mixed thoughts on how you should dose your PCT.

I'm running:
Week 1-8 Anavar 50mg / ED
Week 1-8 Test P 75mg / ED

The PCT I've planned is:
Week 1-4 Nolvadex 20mg ED
Week 1-4 Clomid 50mg ED

I've seen people dose the Clomid higher, but will this be sufficient?
 
It should be sufficient. You can always do another week if you feel you haven't recovered properly.
 
Bone14 said:
Hi BL,

I've seen some mixed thoughts on how you should dose your PCT.

I'm running:
Week 1-8 Anavar 50mg / ED
Week 1-8 Test P 75mg / ED

The PCT I've planned is:
Week 1-4 Nolvadex 20mg ED
Week 1-4 Clomid 50mg ED

I've seen people dose the Clomid higher, but will this be sufficient?
Click to expand...

Clomid can be a very harsh compound in some people, it can permanently damage your retina, so use with caution.. I've studys somewhere show Clomid used at 25mg/day for spermatogenesis.... Maybe taper down the Anavar prior to cessation so you are not dropping everything cold turkey...
 
Thanks for your replies. I got some Ostarine I could use in the PCT, I was thinking 10mg ED? Would that have the same "effect" as tapering down the anavar?
 
If your htpa is otherwise fine this should be ok. I'd even rather take less drugs in pct than more. Especially after a shortish and lightish cycle.

If you know you have a hard time recovering then who knows... so ever did a cycle? How was your recovery?

And fair warning just about anyone who knows a bit about aas has his own opinion on pct :)
 
This is my first cycle. Been training clean for 5 years, I saw no reason doing AAS before I had developed af good fundament. So I honestly do not know how my recovery will be.
 
Bone14 said:
Thanks for your replies. I got some Ostarine I could use in the PCT, I was thinking 10mg ED? Would that have the same "effect" as tapering down the anavar?
Click to expand...

I thought about doing this before although their is no definitive evidence that the sarm will either make recovery harder or not. They may actually cause some shutdown as far as I'm aware although not to the same extent as aas. This may make recovery harder. I choose not to do it but perhaps you could be our guinea pig? Lol
 
I prefer not to be guinea pig at my first cycle. I can say I have some experience with osta cycles only. They do shut you down slightly, when you go off the there will be 2 weeks where you have some trouble with your energy levels and maintaining your strength.

Though the shutdown is not that bad, and you keep your gains, and after two weeks you feel normal again. Maybe some time in the future I can be guinea pig.
 
I was joking mate stay safe leave the stupid shit that hasn't been studied to the pros and retards. Especially on your first cycle.

Drop the Clomid too and run pct of nolva 20/20/20/20. You should be fine here it's a pretty mild cycle
 
Idk about sarms and pct. The blood work posted says everything from not suppressive to mildly suppressive to might as well stay on. And I don't think that the pharm companies researching them are aiming for one that would be selective in a way best suited for this. What they want is one for old men/young with fucked htpas as an alternative to trt (aka oral, not liver toxic, no prostate enlargement, no cholesterol problems, no cv problems, don't care about hpta, like test elswhere), one for old women (same as previous one, except not androgenic, and not as strong in muscle) and one to use as a male contraceptive (same as the first one, except it has to be very suppressive while on). Sure, one might eventually be discovered that has all the good effects of steroids and none of the bad, but I don't believe they are actively looking for it.
 
I would not drop the Clomid. In my experience this is key actually. Yes people have varying opinions about PCT because there are various ways to run it and for it to work, so on alot of forums, new guys will try to say their method is the latest and greatest. There are dozens of protocols that work. Something basic like clomid and nolva will work, that much is for sure. So I personally would stick to your normal plan of Clom/Nolva.

Nolva aka tamoxifen is an anti cancer drug that works because it reduces estrogen in the body and it also is able to target the breast tissue and eliminate estrogen from the breast tissue and cells, which is why you will see guys run this when trying to remove pre gyno symptoms, because it can eliminate them permanently.

Clomid on the other hand is the primary product that is going to help you with your natural HPTA. Clomid is actually used for HRT/TRT aka testosterone replacement therapy, which often is not well known. Most people think you have to use Test or Creams or various other versions. It has shown to not be suppressive to your natural levels, but rather able to successfully boost your levels in both HPTA shutdown as well as increase someones overall and free levels who is deficient from genetics, or age.

Ostarine is a bit suppressive for sure at certain dosages, so it is best not to experiment with this during your run unless you know what dose you can get away with, which would be determined through trial and error and blood work, probably not even worth trying to figure out to be honest.
 
WesleyInman said:
I would not drop the Clomid. In my experience this is key actually. Yes people have varying opinions about PCT because there are various ways to run it and for it to work, so on alot of forums, new guys will try to say their method is the latest and greatest. There are dozens of protocols that work. Something basic like clomid and nolva will work, that much is for sure. So I personally would stick to your normal plan of Clom/Nolva.

Nolva aka tamoxifen is an anti cancer drug that works because it reduces estrogen in the body and it also is able to target the breast tissue and eliminate estrogen from the breast tissue and cells, which is why you will see guys run this when trying to remove pre gyno symptoms, because it can eliminate them permanently.

Clomid on the other hand is the primary product that is going to help you with your natural HPTA. Clomid is actually used for HRT/TRT aka testosterone replacement therapy, which often is not well known. Most people think you have to use Test or Creams or various other versions. It has shown to not be suppressive to your natural levels, but rather able to successfully boost your levels in both HPTA shutdown as well as increase someones overall and free levels who is deficient from genetics, or age.
Click to expand...

A slight correction to your post:

Tamoxifen will bind the Estrogen receptor alpha in breast tissue.... Blood:Estrogen levels will increase (short term only), because the SERM is keeping the estrogens from binding the receptor. The end result will be to block an estrogenic response to ER-a...
 
Genetic Freak said:
A slight correction to your post:

Tamoxifen will bind the Estrogen receptor alpha in breast tissue.... Blood:Estrogen levels will increase (short term only), because the SERM is keeping the estrogens from binding the receptor. The end result will be to block an estrogenic response to ER-a...
Click to expand...

Yes, I should have clarified, it does "block" estrogen. It probably should be clarified in full then if we want to be technical.

What Nolva does is block the estrogen receptors in the body and breast tissue. Although you may have "estrogen" present circulating in the bloodstream even while taking nolva, at any rate, it does not matter, it will be so little if at all, that very little or again, no estrogenic activity will be possible. If estrogen cannot bind to the receptors, it is not effective, aka it has ZERO effect.

Also we may as well explain for new guys an explanation to how arimidex works. Arimidex works by blocking endogeneous production of estrogen. So in theory it lowers the amount of estrogen that you create compared to nolva blocking and tying up receptors to make estrogen essentially non-active. Both are very good products, both "can" work very well.

I would argue (and this is my opinion) that Nolva in my experience is better for removing pre gyno and existing issues with the nipples, etc..and/or controlling pregyno symptoms, whereas arimidex has a better overall effect in a lower total estrogen level, however I have found it is not near as strong in removing pre-gyno symptoms as Nolva. There is also Letro as well that is popular.

Estrogen reduction can be accomplished in several ways – by blocking it, by destroying it, by occupying existing estrogen receptors
 
It's mostly an academic discussion now. A short cycle with no compounds known for causing long lasting suppression by a guy with no known htpa problems. He should recover just fine with even the lightest pct (or none tbh just a little slower).
 
black53 said:
It's mostly an academic discussion now. A short cycle with no compounds known for causing long lasting suppression by a guy with no known htpa problems. He should recover just fine with even the lightest pct (or none tbh just a little slower).
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Agreed we can skip on any more academic discussion but have you ever seen labs from var, winny, or even prop in short cycles??

I have...I worked in the hospital for years..and saw many many AAS users and worked with several endocrinologists. Prop can easily shut you down fully in two months. Natural HPTA can take 6-12 months if you don't use PCT. This is the worst idea ever. So you go from having 2000 nanograms of test(hypothetical # ) to now, maybe say 0-250nanos (hypothetical #) and you think this is Ok? The user would lose significant muscle mass while awaiting the body turning back on,as well as potential depression, and sexual issues, etc..

Think the 6-12 months is a made up figure on my end?? Call any well known endo and speak to them about HPTA and get their response.
 
No, I believe you. First, while on, yes you will be shut down, don't think anyone is really saying this isn't true. However, is the sample of people seeking medical help after cycles really representative of all people taking cycles? And I did not tell him not to do any pct, but that a light one should be ok and that he should recover even without one in time (I did not suggest this). I also advised against using sarms during pct because suppressiveness seems to vary a lot (based on blood work of people who tried it). Is this because different individuals respond differently or because gray/black market products may not be what they say and at the concentrations they say or both? I don't know.
 
I also wouldn't advise on sarms for pct due to the effects we are not clear about on suppressiveness with the compounds. 1 problem I've noticed here and there is that Dbol is being sold as ostarine in some places. Never witnessed this although have read other forums with this problem
 
WesleyInman said:
Yes, I should have clarified, it does "block" estrogen. It probably should be clarified in full then if we want to be technical.

What Nolva does is block the estrogen receptors in the body and breast tissue. Although you may have "estrogen" present circulating in the bloodstream even while taking nolva, at any rate, it does not matter, it will be so little if at all, that very little or again, no estrogenic activity will be possible. If estrogen cannot bind to the receptors, it is not effective, aka it has ZERO effect.

Also we may as well explain for new guys an explanation to how arimidex works. Arimidex works by blocking endogeneous production of estrogen. So in theory it lowers the amount of estrogen that you create compared to nolva blocking and tying up receptors to make estrogen essentially non-active. Both are very good products, both "can" work very well.

I would argue (and this is my opinion) that Nolva in my experience is better for removing pre gyno and existing issues with the nipples, etc..and/or controlling pregyno symptoms, whereas arimidex has a better overall effect in a lower total estrogen level, however I have found it is not near as strong in removing pre-gyno symptoms as Nolva. There is also Letro as well that is popular.

Estrogen reduction can be accomplished in several ways – by blocking it, by destroying it, by occupying existing estrogen receptors
Click to expand...

To add further clarification:
Nolvadex binds ER-alpha, and ER-beta with varying affinity... Estradiol shows slightly higher affinity ER-alpha.. This is how estrogenic effects are regulated . The alpha receptor is responsible for proliferation of cells, the beta receptor inhibits proliferation and increases differentiation.. Although nolva binds beta receptor it does so with less affinity than estradiol. The net result is that proliferation is halted by nolva's negative effect on the alpha receptor, but estradiol is left in circulation to activate the beta receptor. This further inhibits proliferation (tissue growth) and increases differentiation. Terminal differentiation aborts the proliferative capacity of the cell. So that each cell that terminally differentiates is one more cell that won't be replicating. These cells now await apoptosis (cell death) at the hands of androgen-mediated action... This mechanism makes nolva highly effective at fighting gyno...

One other thing: Treatment must continue for some time to be effective. Too often nolva is reported to be ineffective for acute treatment because it isn’t used sufficiently long. nolva inhibits the growth of breast tissue, but does not reduce it on its own. This is mediated by androgen levels as a male and an AAS user. These cells do not dissolve, they are ultimately destroyed by genomic signals. This takes some time. On top of that early cessation risks rebound effects. Nolva does not address circulating estradiol so early cessation will only lead to estradiol immediately binding ER-alpha again, and barring any changes, starting problems all over again...

Estrogen reduction can be accomplished in several ways – by blocking it, by destroying it, by occupying existing estrogen receptors
Click to expand...

The mechanism of estrogen reduction is basically receptor binding, either by binding CYP-19 enzyme (aromatase), thus inhibiting conversion.. Or binding ER-alpha, inhibiting an estrogenic response.. I don't believe estrogen can be "destroyed" by drugs, only androgen mediated action, or metabolic breakdown... (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)..!!

estradiol__tamoxifen_overlap.png


Overlap of estradiol and drug tamoxifen, highlighting the fact that tamoxifen mimics the structure of estradiol, but has an extra tail that sticks out of the binding pocket in the ligand binding domain, preventing helix 12 from capping the pocket and therefore inactivating the receptor.....
 
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