• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion

    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: andyturbo

My nanna can't tell an amphetamine from a methamphetamine!

D

D&AWg

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 18, 2000
Messages
132
Location
Sydney, NSW, Australia
My lovely old nanna raised me to believe that the term amphetamine referred to (cut) speed and (uncut) base, among other substances, while methamphetamine was the term for what we know as crystal meth and/or ice. My understanding was that speed had a fairly short duration of action, with a peak of perhaps four hours, while crystal had a much longer duration, with a peak of say 8-12 hours.
However, nannas are not unfallible, although they would like you to believe so. More recently I notice some people referring to speed as methamphetamine, others seem to think that crystal is just a purer (but not different as such) version of speed, while I also have an impression that there are a wide variety of related-but-different methamphetamine compounds that would have similar action and you would be unlikely to be able to identify the differences without Alexander Shulgin at your side. And I certainly wouldn't trust my naughty old nanna with him.
I also wouldn't trust a dealer's definition of exactly what variety it is they are peddling, any more than I would believe, without testing, a dealer who claimed that the pills they were selling were "pure MDMA imports". Which reminds me that even pure MDMA is a variety of methamphetamine - and even trustworthy dealers are generally relying on the word of the next dealer up the food chain.
So: are there as many different varieties of speed/amphetamine/methamphetamine as there are "ecstasy" pills, or are there just a few distinct compounds - and if so, what are they, what are the differences and how can you tell? My confused nanna needs to rest in peace!
PS: I was going to post this as a reply in the very interesting and related "washing amphetamines" thread but thought it might be a bit off topic?
 
In Australia I believe that you can safely say 'All speed is meth(ly)amphetamine'. There may of course be very rare cases of just amphetamine All the samples I have tested, from beige waxy rock, to white powder, to beige powder, to different coloured pastes to clear and foggy crystal has always reacted to Simon's reagent - the test for the secondary amine.
Difference in effects may be due to
Poor/inconsistant production techniques resulting in contamination with unreacted materials
Different receipies
Purety to non active substance
Intentional addition of other active substances
Different isomers (ie d-meth or l-meth) and diffent ratios of these in the total sample
The racemic(<-- correct term chemical boffins?) quality
 
There certainly are variations of ecstasy... However there's much more to it than the amphetamine/methamphetamine nature of speed that you've described.
Real ecstasy is 3,4-methylenedioxy-n-methylamphetamine (MDMA)
Some variations include:
3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA)
You'll notice MDA is a brother chemical of ecstasy. MDA lacks the empathogenic qualities of MDMA and provides a much more "stoned" high. It lasts a little longer than MDMA, say 3 to 5 hours, and produces hallucinations more commonly and at slighlty lower doses than MDMA. Doses for MDA are approximately the same as those for MDMA.
3,4-methylenedioxy-n-ethylamphetamine (MDE)
Doses required are slightly higher than with MDMA, and in effect it is slightly weaker. It has empathogenic qualities, however it's not as potent as MDMA in that respect. At higher doses, its effects resemble MDA in that it produces a "stoned" feeling.
3,4-methylenedioxyphenethylamine (MBDB)
Known on the streets as "Eden", but apparently quite rare. It is a phenethylamine, not an amphetamine... Although it is still similar in structure and effect to MDMA. Like MDA, it lasts a little longer than MDMA... 4 - 6 hours. Reports indicate that it feels like a weak or subtle MDMA dose - it produces the same empathogenic effects, rushes and stimulation, simply at a lower level. So, you might say that 150mg of MBDB feels like 100mg of MDMA.
Pills sold as ecstasy could contain any of these various compounds, or even a mix of them. I would hazard a guess that MDMA and MDA are the most common, due to MDA being a necessary step in MDMA synthesis.
You can find lots of information on this kind of thing at http://www.erowid.org.
I finally bought a new keyboard... Using upper case letters is a reality... :)
[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: apollo ]
 
Thanks for that info, Appollo. :) I do know about the "ecstasy" variants but I was more interested here in the speed variants, which Soma has addressed.
I'm still a little unclear about some of your comments, Soma. (Neither my nanna nor I am ever going to win the Nobel Prize for Chemistry.) Is methamphetamine different to methylamphetamine, and if so what is the difference? And even if amphetamine is rare in Oz, how is it different?
Do I understand you correctly that all speed/crystal here is essentially the same active ingredient but varying in purity or degree of contamination, which explains the difference in appearance? What sort of other active substances (as opposed to cutting substances like glucose or icing sugar) might be added to speed/crystal? Are the different isomers you mentioned different varieties with different effects? Are they different in appearance? Are they produced by a different recipe or manufacturing process or are different isomers produced together? Also what do you mean by racemic quality?
Thanks for your help guys! :)
 
Whoops, I misread your question D&AWg... Eh, I've got far too much time on my hands anyway :)
As far as I know (I'll stand to correction on any of this) there is no difference between methamphetamine and methylamphetamine. I know very little about isomers, but these two are isomers, are they not?
The reason why amphetamines are rare - methamphetamines are cheap, more potent and easier to produce (it's referred to as "cooking", an indication of how complicated the synthesis is...)
You are correct - all speed/crystal here in Australia is essentially the same active ingredient (methamphetamine) with varying purity, possible contaminations and chemical variancies resulting from garage production.
I can tell you that people mix (cut) methamphetamines with glucose or epson salts. I've also heard of some type of alkaloids being used. I'm sure that all of these are inactive. Yes, this is one of the reasons why speed is often different in appearance from time to time, place to place, etc. Keep in mind, dealers who are "cutting" their gear could throw in anything to make up extra weight...
Racemic is a really, really complicated chemical term that I can't get my head around... It's got something to do with a chemical compound containing equal quantities of two things, and therefore not reacting with some kind of light?
[Edit]
I made a mistake - The differences between amphetamine and methamphetamine are not chemically comparable to cocaine/crack. Sorry.
[/Edit]
:)
[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: apollo ]
 
Very quickly, methylamphetamine and methamphetamine are the same thing. IT can exist in two isomeric forms; d for dextrorotatory (as in dexoxyn, old generic for d meth) and l for levorotatory.
The d isomer does what you want from speed, the l isomer is a decongestant. Why? simply because of the geometry of the molecule.
l doesn't fit the right key hole so to speak.
Isomers of other molecules may both fit the receptor or enzyme, but may cause different effects or no response at all
 
One thing that can be added is that an "amphetamine" is actually a definate molecular structure and the "meth" refers to a methyl group(a certain arrangement of atoms) attached to it. There is a whole family of these compounds but you really should just worry about methylamphetamine. That's where the fun is! :)
Okay, and a racemate or a racemic mixture refers to a mix of the 2 isomers, so I believe that soma may have been saying that if the racemic quality was high that there was a large amount of d isomer instead of the crappy l.
I don't know much about meth manufacture, but what usually happens when you make a compound, you usually get a racemic mixture of both (or more?) isomers unless you use some funky methods to get around this.
MDMA also has the same racemic quality issue, where one isomer, the "S" isomer is MUCH stronger than the "R" isomer. This can sometimes explain why the same amount of MDMA (but not batch) will affect you differently each time.
And a direct answer to apollo about racemates: Basically in a racemic mixture there are 2 related isomers that react with polarised light in solution. One isomer will require you to turn the polarised light a certain amount of degrees to the right allow the light to pass through the solution, while the other isomer requires you to turn it the same amount of degrees to the left to allow the light to pass through.
Thus, the racemate is a 50/50 mixture of both these isomers. Because for 50% of the mixture you need to turn the light to the right and 50% of the mixture you need to turn it to the left, they cancel each other out, so you don't need to turn the light either way.
This is in an ideal situation. Racemates in the lab vary in their ratio.
 
Great post Jester.

The basic idea people must get is that there are:

(i) families of chemicals - groups of chemicals with the same BASE STRUCTURE. (the amphetamines are one, of which they are also a sub-group of a bigger group - the phenylethylamines. (the name Dr. Shulgin made famous)

(ii) Within each group there may be several distinct different chemicals. These are UNIQUE chemicals because they have a DIFFERENT chemical structure; they are NOT isomers. Amphetamine, Methylamphetamine and paramethoxyamphetamine are all amphetamines but are completely different chemicals.

(iii) Each unique chemical can then come in different FORMS.
Such as a freebase or a salt.

All common illicit drugs BEGIN life as a FREEBASE. (they are insoluble in water - with a basic "free" amine group) The freebase is then turned into a water soluble SALT (crystals/powder) by reaction with an acid.

These are generally either a:
(i) hydrochoride (addition of a HCl molecule to the freebase; such as MDMA-HCl or pseudoephedrine hydrochloride); or
(ii) sulfate (addition of a hydrogen sulfate molecule to the freebase; if u have access to dexies u will see them listed as dexamphetamine sulfate)

So basically all the common drugs can exist in all of those forms; you will almost exclusively see the hydrochloride however. All MDXX drugs will be the hydrochloride without fail. So the FORM of the drug does dictate its appearance. Obviously there is varying degrees to which these forms are made pure. "Base" and "Ice" may both be methamphetamine-HCl but the ice is far purer, due to among other things better formation/purification of the salt/crystals.

Amphetamines are to methamphetamines what cocaine is to crack... Same effect, simply a different chemical structure and lower potency
Click to expand...
No this is incorrect. Crack is essentially the FREEBASE of cocaine; they are IDENTICAL chemicals. (however somewhat unusually Crack is made FROM cocaine-hydrochloride - the salt! They turn the SALT back into the FREEBASE Whereas as i have stated amphetamine and methylamphetamine are entirely different chemicals; not different isomers or different forms of the same chemical.


MANUFACTURE: it is the simple reason that methamphetamine can be made in one "easy" reaction with a couple of highly controlled chemicals from pseudoephedrine. Amphetamine could be made in exactly the same way from a similar chemical, called phenylpropanolamine but it isnt because pseudoephedrine is relatively easy to get, and PPA isnt. meth is also far more desired anyway.

So its not that meth is easier to make, but that it can easily be made from a rather readily available source.

There are many methods for making meth from PFed: this is largely the reason for such an enormous variation in quality and appearance of products. Also see what i have said in the "washing amphetamines" thread; the quality of meth produced by such methods, often by people with limited experience, in bathroom labs is INFINITE. So as u can see the variation in street meth is massive and thats before u get to the cutting of it with various compounds. All meth made this way is likely to have varying amounts of pseudoephedrine left in it also.

It has been said that meth made from PFed gives the pure D isomer. I cannot verify this but others have said this is the case. Basically if Pseudoephedrine found in medicines is pure D-pseuoephedrine, it follows the product is only D-Meth.
Meth produced from a similar precursor to the one MDMA (MD-P2P) is made from, P2P, would give a RACEMIC mixture of methamphetamine; i.e: approx 50% D and 50% L.

So the takehome message is: almost all illicit speed is methlyamphetamine. - ALSO known as methamphetamine.

The purity, the strength, isomer-ratio, what other cutting compunds are present etc is anyone's guess. And as u can see such variation is why the meth on the street is of seemingly infinite variety and NOT because its some different chemical.
 
Last edited:
Regular users of high quality methamphetamine can tell the difference. Anyone who has used a high quality form of either drug regularly for an extended period can pick minute differences between batches of the same drug, so picking between drugs shouldn't be too difficult.
From my experience, as stated by others above, amphetamine is virtually never out there... even 'base' is usually meth.
Opposed to meth, I find amphetamine to be very euphoric and 'messy', compared to the extremely clean feeling of good meth. These to me are the distinctive features. In many respects it is more enjoyable, however IMHO the cleaner drug is preferable.
Not that it really matters that much - even if you wanted to try amphetamine, your odds of finding it aren't good, especially when most dealers themselves dont know the difference. I no longer use either (clean for months), but good luck to you. :)
[ 16 May 2002: Message edited by: Jakoz ]
 
Woot! Go Biscuit. Now all we need is for some speed cook to tell us from which reaction/starting point they get that waxy beige rock,
...and someone to explain why you can get pure crystals that have very little effect other than giving you a headache.
 
Awsome thread guys :)
Crystal or rock doesn't always mean pure, you can recystalise something that you've cut. People who have crystal probably imagine its pure but if its been cut down and then recrystalised it could be more nothing than something.
But taking something from biscuit's post, it could be the initial batch wasn't that good to start with and even though it hasn't been cut at all it still won't do much for you. So you have the pure gear so to speak but the cook mixed up a bad lot. I'm sure bisuit or phase_dancer will have something to add :)
 
Wow! You turn your back for a minute and the next thing you know there are all these great posts here. Thanks everyone! :)
The reason my back was turned was that I was chasing off after my dear old nanna again. When I eventually caught up with her she said she’d done a line of speed, which she said was a white powder that made her dancing shoes twinkle extremely fast. It made her talk extremely fast too, although she got a bit edgy after a while when she started to come down. While she was gabbling, Nanna told me she’d had ice once, which she said was clear little crystals, and that it made her intensely euphoric and horny as hell. She’s a tart, my nanna is. (In fact, she said she wouldn’t tell me who my real grandad was, but she claimed she’d had ice when she met the lovely Dr Shulgin years ago. Which would explain a lot.) Nanna reckons that ice is as good as a couple of Es to enhance her Knitting Circle Dinner Dances, but she said crystal meth looks similar but gave her a much mellower high. She also reckoned that crystal and ice kept her awake for much, much longer than speed.
So is my nanna talking crap? (It wouldn’t be the first time.) Is crystal meth different to ice or are they different names for the same thing? Do they keep her awake for longer than speed simply because the speed contains a lower dose of pure methamphetamine?
I see that some people here are saying that there is indeed some amphetamine around in Australia. Could it be that Nanna’s speed is actually amphetamine – and does that have a shorter half life than methamphetamine? What tests are being used to distinguish the two? Is there any way Nanna could distinguish between all these substances other than just taking them and noting the effects?
I’ll end here because I’m starting to twitch. I think Nanna’s slipped something in my drink! ;)
 
This is the purpose of BL!! Nice one! :D
Just a q - smokeable speed - does it need to be in rock crystalised form? Ie the 'crystal' meth you get (after assuming all other speed i've ever gotten has been cut meth... is that right?) the only form that's smokeable because it's the freebase? Or wrong?
Also just to clarify - what about the oil-like stuff you can get - very thick and potent liquid that you drop onto sugar, etc to get weight - meth too?
 
Nanna reckons ice is smokeable but not crystal meth. I wouldn't know, except that both are in rock crystal form. She also said she tried smoking base once but it didn't work. She said the base was a reddish sludge like wet oily beach sand, and she says it's this base that's cut with epsom salts or whatever to make white powdered speed.
Of course my Nanna sometimes dances too fast for the facts! 8)
[ 17 May 2002: Message edited by: D&AWg ]
 
Great work FJ and Biscuit!
Mods, methinks their contributions would be a great addition to FAQ.
Off topic: Can anyone answer what form(s) does a freebase come in?
 
Could it be that Nanna’s speed is actually amphetamine – and does that have a shorter half life than methamphetamine? What tests are being used to distinguish the two? Is there any way Nanna could distinguish between all these substances other than just taking them and noting the effects?
There may be amphetamines around that are simply diverted dexies - the speed that you are given for ADD (or ADHD one of the two)
A simple chemical test can be done to distinguish between meth and non meth ampetamines.
Simons reagent turns blue in the presense of a secondary amine (ie methamphetamine) and doesn't react if its not there.
Robadope will turn pink in the presense of a primary amine (ie amphetamine without the meth) and won't react if its not there (ie if its methamphamine there is no reaction.
Click to expand...
 
Methamphetamine does last slightly longer than amphetamine. Meth is also more potent and more euphoric, and has a better body high. This is probably due to the fact that meth is more serotonergic in action. An experienced user can tell the difference between meth and amph based on taste (meth is more bitter) and effects -- I definitely notice distinct, though by no means huge, differences between the two drugs. Meth is referred to as speed, crystal, glass, and sometimes wizz I believe. Amphetamine is also referred to as speed, and wizz as well. Meth- and methyl- amphetamine are exactly the same chemical; just two different names. They are not isomers, again, they are the same chemical.
In terms of amphetamines, there are only really three kinds, that you should care/worry about: amphetamine, methamphetamine, and MDMA (3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine). They are distinctly different chemicals, though they are share some major structural similarities. Now, for every single chemical in the world, there are two stereoisomers, or enantiomers.Quoting myself from an earlier post in Other Drugs, here is an explanation of stereoisomers/chirality, using the example of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine:
Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine have the same molecular forumula -- C10H15NO -- however they are stereoisomers of each other. In my favorite chemistry professor's terms, this means that ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are "non-superimposable mirror images of each other". Another analogy would be left and right hands -- stereoisomers are like left and right hands -- you can see they are very similar but not exactly the same.
Ephedrine is the (+) or S isomer, and when exposed to polarized light, the molecule rotates counterclockwise.
Pseudoephedrine is the (-) or R isomer, and when exposed to polarized light, the molecue rotates clockwise.
Chirality is the term that describes this property of molecules to rotate in one way or the other when exposed to polarized light.
Check out this link to compare 3-D images of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine.
Now, let's take a look at the l and d isomers of the aforementioned amphetamines. In all cases, the d isomer is the more potent isomer (note: this is not the case with all chemicals, it just happens to be so for the amphetamines in question). The l isomer has no recreational value on its own. In the cases of amphetamine and methamphetamine, it is most desirable to have an enantiomerically pure product -- i.e., you just want the d-amph/meth, because the greater the percentage of your amph/meth that is d, the stronger your mixture will be. Most street amph/meth consists solely of the d isomer. If you get amph/meth that is not very strong, despite seeming pure and being crystalline, it is probably because some or all of the product is the l isomer. I know someone who once mistakenly made a batch of l isomer meth.
In the case of MDMA, the situation is slightly more complicated. As with the other amphetamines, isolated l-MDMA is not at all recreational. However, pure d-MDMA on its own feels a helluva lot like MDA/methamphetamine. The racemate version of MDMA (racemate = a 50/50 mixture of the l and d isomers) is the type almost always seen on the street, and somehow, the l-isomer adds to the effects of the MDMA. There is a synergy created by the presence of the l-MDMA (even though as you recall it has no effect on its own) in combination with d-MDMA. In fact, it is the presence of the l-MDMA that creates the unique 'lovey' feeling of racemate MDMA.
Hopefully, that clears up chirality (I am a chirality NUT as you can tell! ;) ).
Sometimes meth is referred to as ice, but this is not accurate. Technically, ice refers to the (very rare) stimulant 4-methylaminorex, which has a more euphoric, long-lasting high, and is different in structure from the amphetamines. Go to www.erowid.org or take a look at the second page of Other Drugs for more info on this chemical.
Amphetamines are to methamphetamines what cocaine is to crack... Same effect, simply a different chemical structure and lower potency.
This is a poor analogy (not to criticize). Cocaine and crack differ only by virtue of cocaine being in hydrochloride form (.hcl) while crack is not (it is the 'freebase'). However, both crack and cocaine are basically still the same chemical; they are merely in different forms. Amphetamine and methamphetamine (why did you pluralize these?) are NOT the same chemical, even if they are both in hydrochloride or both in freebase form. Amphetamine and methamphetamine are not even isomers of each other; in addition to having different structures, they have different chemical formulas. Thus, the difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine is much greater than the difference between crack and cocaine (which truly is a case of the former simply being a more potent form).
AFAIK, most speed in Australia is amphetamine -- or at least that has always been what has been said. I'm not sure why this is so. As I have never done Australian speed (though I have seen it), I can't personally verify. Thoughts, comments?
MDMA also has the same racemic quality issue, where one isomer, the "S" isomer is MUCH stronger than the "R" isomer. This can sometimes explain why the same amount of MDMA (but not batch) will affect you differently each time.
Actually, AFAIK, almost all, if not all, street (and even small-scale locally manufactured) MDMA is racemate, i.e., an equal 50/50 blend of the two isomers. The differences from batch to batch of MDMA are due to getting MDA and MDEA instead of MDMA, and NOT due to different proportions of the MDMA isomers.
Just a q - smokeable speed - does it need to be in rock crystalised form? Ie the 'crystal' meth you get (after assuming all other speed i've ever gotten has been cut meth... is that right?) the only form that's smokeable because it's the freebase? Or wrong?
You can smoke amphetamines in either their hcl/hydrochloride or their sulfate forms. I imagine smoking them in their freebase forms would be difficult, as in that form they are oils, not powders/crystals.
Also just to clarify - what about the oil-like stuff you can get - very thick and potent liquid that you drop onto sugar, etc to get weight - meth too?
This would probably be the freebase oil, as explained above. Freebase is always the most potent form of a chemical. Different chemicals/drugs come in different freebase forms. Amph, meth and MDMA are freebase oils; cocaine freebase is a powder.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top