Morailty, vegetarian/veganism, and psychoactive drugs

[magicking]

It never fails to amaze me that in forums concerning spiritual substances - weed, LSD, etc - plants that take you into spiritual dimensions, outside of the ordinary world of flesh and blood - there is no mention of morality, karma, and the like.

People simply don't seem to grasp the overwhelming importance of the subjective nature of drug experiences. Nobody seems to bother to say that if you are vegetarian/vegan, are clear in your mind that killing and destroying life are evil and wrong, that you will invariably have a happier life and indeed happier drug experiences.

That is why I urge the owners of the website to add a forum on morality and karma, so that these issues can be given a fair airing.

People absolutely need to understand that pure karma leads to pure experiences - and vice versa. It's the most basic, simple, obvious case of the operation of cause and effect that you could imagine.

In our society, the misunderstanding and lies, hypocrisy, ignorance around meat-eating and the like is arguably the only thing that is more badly misunderstood, lied about, and so on, than drugs themselves.

The cold, hard fact is, if a big part of your life involves depriving other living beings of their lives (which are just as valuable to them as yours is to you - no less valuable, not even by as much as a millionth of hair, because when you are alive, whether as a human or as a bug, being alive is EVERYTHING; it is the only thing that matters; you know this! I know this! so how can you think that taking away another being's life is a perfectly reasonable thing to do?) - then how in the world do you expect to have any kind of meaningful life whatsoever? This is nothing less than outright insanity passed over as acceptable social behaviour. And it is so numbingly obvious that it is immensely sad that the great majority of human beings do not acknowledge or have any idea that this is so.

This insanity is even more insane than all the ignorant, ludicrous, pitiful laws surrounding drugs and so on.

I hope the moderators will give ideas like this a chance to be seen, thought about, and talked about.

 

[Gator]

Magicking, I feel your frustration my friend. I think a lot of the problems we face as drug users can be traced to the common misconception that we're all thugs whom go around shooting women and children in the streets.

Whether this idea takes off or not, thanks for sharing your insight with all of us!

 

[Heroic]

Morality is an artificial concept, also very subjective.

 

[Tommyboy]

You can discuss that in the Philosophy & Spirituality forum.

 

[Vaya]

You can discuss that in the Philosophy & Spirituality forum.

Precisely.

Homeless >>> P&S

 

[-=SS=-]

Not sure where vegetarianism/veganism fits in, but i'll add my 2 cents anyway:

There is nothing spiritual about not eating meat. We could raise livestock in better conditions i'll grant that most definitely, but there is nothing wrong or bad karma about killing animals to eat. Other animals eat.. other animals.. all the time. Are they less spiritual than their cousins who eat plants exclusively? I've heard that it's mentioned in yoga somewhere that if you eat meat it can disturb your thought patterns slightly, but that's as far as it goes.

 

[Dosier]

Not sure where vegetarianism/veganism fits in, but i'll add my 2 cents anyway:

There is nothing spiritual about not eating meat. We could raise livestock in better conditions i'll grant that most definitely, but there is nothing wrong or bad karma about killing animals to eat. Other animals eat.. other animals.. all the time. Are they less spiritual than their cousins who eat plants exclusively? I've heard that it's mentioned in yoga somewhere that if you eat meat it can disturb your thought patterns slightly, but that's as far as it goes.

Read the book of Daniel in the bible, not that the bible really matters honestly. Also in genesis, it says god gave all the fruit and seed baring plants of the world as food for us to eat. (that was quoted almost word for word).

Plato, Socrates, and I believe Aristotle were all vegetarians. They believed that eating meat, and killing animal was a waste of the life force. If you believe in vibrations (spirituality?), then it is understood that meat carries a lower vibration than your body, so eating meat will bring your vibration lower. I have not eaten meat, and all of the antibiotics, and growth hormones that they put in animals are horrible for you. Mainly it is the blood that is filthy on meat eaters. I can get all my proteins from nuts like sesame, sunflower, pumpkin, walnut, almond, pistachio, etc, etc. Also, by my not eating animals that is less wasted resources on a cow to be killed, that's more like an added bonus thing that comes along with the decision, rather than my decision being based around that in anyway in the beginning.

 

[What 23]

I feel knocked down vibrationally (maybe it is that) when I consume chicken.

But sometimes I see it as necessity. I eat occasionally chicken liver because I tolerate it actually (problems eating) and I need B12 and the vitamin A and selenium aren't bad either...

But I do feel knocked down in a way... and meat takes days to pass through ones system...

Ideally most comes from plants... sustenance. But blessed is the lamb...

I don't find meat eating inherently against the spirit. As long as it is done consciously, and respectfully.


Having less difficulty tripping when a vegetarian diet is followed may have other factors other than "eating animals is wrong". It may be that those animals you did not eat days ago aren't still rotting in your guts, and your body is less toxic than if you had/they were. I guess we can close this in the same loop though. One way or the other, meat eating regularly is not optimal for a clean and clear body and mind.

I don't ultimately separate body/mind/"spirit"...

You may feel better for doing good by your moral code, as well, if your reasons are in that area.

 

[-=SS=-]

Plato, Socrates, and I believe Aristotle were all vegetarians. They believed that eating meat, and killing animal was a waste of the life force. If you believe in vibrations (spirituality?), then it is understood that meat carries a lower vibration than your body, so eating meat will bring your vibration lower.

Key word is believe. I don't believe in the vibrations thing.. and observing how others act, in particular a lot of vegan new-agey type people, it seems to me like they've convinced themselves of their own belief without it actually being true. Even if they have "good vibrations", so what? They're still no closer to the truth than someone else, they just tend to be more obnoxious lol. Not saying you are, but this is my experience of others.

Being caught up on whether meat is good or bad is just another mental hurdle to jump over. In the end it really does not matter either way. The only thing that is of importance is if you're trying to do some serious thinking and whether eating/not eating meat affects that process at all. We're animals at the end of the day, and exhaulting ourselves on the belief that we're more noble when not eating meat is just human pretense.

 

[7ca5p]

I wouldn't mind if a bear killed me and ate me, because I would understand why it was doing it.

For this reason I don't feel guilty about eating meat.

The OP mentions that a bug's life is just as precious as more complex life forms. Is that quantifiable? No, it's just an opinion.

A woodlouse doesn't have concious awareness - how is that 'life' just as valuable as, for example, a dolphin, who can experience complex and rich emotional detail?

OP, please be aware that you are guilty of grand anthropomorphism. "Their life is just as valuable to them" actually translates to "I value their life just as much as I value yours".

The woodlice are a valuable part of ecosystems and the natural world, but if you accidentally step on one, objective measurements indicate that it's not going to feel a thing. Why? Because pain is a complex feeling, and the nervous system of very small insects is not complex enough for such feelings to be initiated.

Comparing a the life of an aphid to the life of humans or whales or cats is arduous and borderlines Jainism.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Sorry, but I feel that my life is more valuable than the swine who goes into my breakfast bacon.

Should I suffer the same legal consequences for accidentally stepping on an ant, as manslaughter? 8)

 

[Dosier]

Key word is believe. I don't believe in the vibrations thing.. and observing how others act, in particular a lot of vegan new-agey type people, it seems to me like they've convinced themselves of their own belief without it actually being true. Even if they have "good vibrations", so what? They're still no closer to the truth than someone else, they just tend to be more obnoxious lol. Not saying you are, but this is my experience of others.

Being caught up on whether meat is good or bad is just another mental hurdle to jump over. In the end it really does not matter either way. The only thing that is of importance is if you're trying to do some serious thinking and whether eating/not eating meat affects that process at all. We're animals at the end of the day, and exhaulting ourselves on the belief that we're more noble when not eating meat is just human pretense.

When I said believe, I meant that I believe it was all of those people. I know for a 'fact' that at least 2/3 were vegetarian if not all 3... I am just too lazy to do a google search on all of them trying to find the answers.

I think the most important thing to realize is you are what you eat. People that eat animals will be become more animalistic, just like any animal that eats meat. Eating plants is extremely easy on your body, and the amount of nutrition in the total plants in the world far exceeds that of the meats. T-rex, raptors, and anything that is blood thirsty are a bit crazy, the herbivors are peace loving animals. None the less, one cannot really compare and animal to a human being, all though a few comparisons can be made, over all you cannot compare them.

Personally from my experience, yes not eating meat makes my mind stronger I feel. Although I do struggle with drug addiction, I know that once I am able to put this vice aside I will excel and pretty much ascend. Drug's are really the only thing keeping my consciousness on this earth. I have had very real experiences with the light, and I know the light tells me to not eat meat.

as far as people with good vibes go and truth, well that is up to each individual person. I know that extra-dimensional realms cannot be verified by 'scientists'. It takes one well versed in meditation to reach these realms of cosmic light. Reaching these realms is like being in a full color dream, with full awareness. It is not easy like I said, it requires much mental strength to transcend time and space as we know it. I don't really know of any scientists practicing meditation. If you have seen the study done on tibetan monks, it was found that the part of their brain which involves memory was ~20% larger than any one else that did not practice meditation.

 

[xx001]

People that eat animals will be become more animalistic, just like any animal that eats meat.

What the hell does that even mean? Do you have any evidence at all to support this, whatever it may mean?

Eating plants is extremely easy on your body, and the amount of nutrition in the total plants in the world far exceeds that of the meats.

The abundance of a source of nutrition has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it is good to eat. The total biomass of bacteria may be greater than all plants and animals combined. This in no way means that it is more spiritually righteous to eat bacteria instead of plants, animals, fungi, etc.

T-rex, raptors, and anything that is blood thirsty are a bit crazy

Once again, what the hell does that even mean? Do you have any evidence at all to support this, whatever it may mean?

I know that extra-dimensional realms cannot be verified by 'scientists'. It takes one well versed in meditation to reach these realms of cosmic light. Reaching these realms is like being in a full color dream, with full awareness. It is not easy like I said, it requires much mental strength to transcend time and space as we know it.

*see above* You are throwing around a lot of extraordinary claims without presenting any logic or evidence supporting them. I don't doubt the experiences you have. I have had powerful experiences both with and without drugs. Perhaps if I was not rational, I may have thought that I had contacted god or been exposed to alternate realities or something else completely ridiculous and/or cognitively meaningless. However, I realize that I was actually just tripping balls and have no valid evidence to justify that what I experienced what anything but an alteration of the normal functioning of my own mind.


I recommend you read some of the writings of Sam Harris, a scientist(Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA) who practices meditation and used to take psychedelic drugs.

http://www.samharris.org/

 

[BlueHues]

^I personally agree with the OP to a large extent.....

Yesterday, I went a a park with a lot of geese and ducks swimming and squawking and interacting with one another.....It brought a smile to my face! Watching them follow each other around and nip at each other.....they have feelings! They want to live!

This being said, I've "relapsed" on meat for the last year or so and it just feels horrible to me! Worse than abusing any drug could ever make me feel!

the problem is, people don't even have to be involved in the killing or cleaing of animals at all! It's all done for you!

It becomes just a food to eat, stripped of all it's dignity as a fellow being on this earth!

Sure, a lot of animals kill, but aren't we supposed to have a higher consciousness than animals?!

Just try vegetarianism for a few months....It gives such a clarity, such an awareness....It's almost like a high! It's weird!

I realize now how addictive meat really is! I don't need to eat it, but I crave it every day lately....I eat it and I hate myself for it....

I don't care what anyone else does, but it's undeniable that the meat industry is absolutely disgusting.....

try not eating meat for 45 days and I promise you, it will change your perspective on life in the same way a psychedelic would.....

 

[Foreigner]

It doesn't appear that the OP has returned to continue the discussion... oh well.

I was a vegetarian for 8 years and did everything by the book. Living on the west coast means I get access to organic everything. Despite all this, my body became run down. I eat meat now, but I only need it every few days or so, and I'm not attached to it. I don't eat it just because it tastes good, but because I feel the positive impact it has on my body.

Now that I practice medicine, I can tell you this is a complicated subject. I see that some people just aren't meant to be vegetarian full time. In the winter time I get a lot of raw vegans and vegetarians coming to see me who suffer from health problems, but it's mostly climate related. I think if I lived in a climate that was warm year round it would be much easier to be vegetarian, but the calorie burden of cold weather just wrecked me back when I didn't eat meat. My best friend can't handle any meat though. If she eats it, her digestive system rebels. She learned from an early age that meat is not right for her.

I respect people's spiritual and moral beliefs surrounding this issue, but please consider the practical side too? Every person has different needs. Our society may be unhealthily addicted to excess protein intake, but that doesn't change that people's diets are diverse in what they require to feel balanced. A lot of it has to do with how you were raised and your constitution.

I definitely go through periods of cleansing where I consume no meat for a while, and I feel a lot lighter, higher vibration, and even a bit more spiritually refined. For instance, today I ate some chicken and felt gross... my body needs a lot more veggies in the coming week. I've been blindly considering my winter diet even though it's spring now, and I don't need so much dense food to burn. But I cannot possibly continue the veggie trend long term otherwise I end up experiencing mental depression, among other things.

 

[RobotRipping]

i was speaking to a guy at school (he studied agriculture something or another) and he mentioned that vegetables and shit you/farmers grow today lack the minerals/vitamins/whatever of the past due to poor farming techniques related to the soil and other stuff i don't understand. What i gathered was that you would likely be missing out on a ton of important vitamins/minerals if you chose not to eat meat. I guess you could fix this by taking supplements but it's kind of fucked up IMO. It seems far more natural to eat meat, in fact when i am tripping i prefer to eat just meat, especially beef. No carbs or vegetables or anything, just plain old meat with some sort of sauce or whatever and it makes me feel much better.

I find eating meat, especially rare meat brings me back to my primitive roots as an animal, which in turn makes me feel a higher vibration (jk) but it does give me some perspective at least.

i also just have to mention that if socrates, plato, aristotle and alexander the great or whoever the fuck even wittgenstein were vegetarians that it doesn't mean a thing? If they were to jump off a bridge, would you? fucking stupid. I feel like i've already slammed you on this subject, maybe my post got deleted but fucking shit, think about this for a second and go look up karma and understand what it actually means vs what you think it means.

 

[BlueHues]

^I agree with everything you just mentioned....I feel the best when I eat chicken or fish only 2-3 times weekly....I never go anywhere near beef....

I just think a lot of people don't know how to have meals that don't center around a huge hunk of meat and overcooked vegetables! I think people are very intimidated by the idea of changing their diet, and I think it's almost seen by some people as "snobby" to consume a lot of vegetables! lol

there's just so much good stuff other than meat that's delicious and satisfying!

Nuts, sweet potatoes, lentils, fruit, beets....I really love these foods and it feels so good to eat them, rthere's just a huge difference! There's no convincing people until they actually try it though....

 

[Dosier]

What the hell does that even mean? Do you have any evidence at all to support this, whatever it may mean?



The abundance of a source of nutrition has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it is good to eat. The total biomass of bacteria may be greater than all plants and animals combined. This in no way means that it is more spiritually righteous to eat bacteria instead of plants, animals, fungi, etc.



Once again, what the hell does that even mean? Do you have any evidence at all to support this, whatever it may mean?



*see above* You are throwing around a lot of extraordinary claims without presenting any logic or evidence supporting them. I don't doubt the experiences you have. I have had powerful experiences both with and without drugs. Perhaps if I was not rational, I may have thought that I had contacted god or been exposed to alternate realities or something else completely ridiculous and/or cognitively meaningless. However, I realize that I was actually just tripping balls and have no valid evidence to justify that what I experienced what anything but an alteration of the normal functioning of my own mind.


I recommend you read some of the writings of Sam Harris, a scientist(Ph.D. in neuroscience from UCLA) who practices meditation and used to take psychedelic drugs.

http://www.samharris.org/

Animals that eat other animals are murderers, not peaceful. That is my point.

Today I just saw an article that stated how red meat is bad for you, I don't know if that matters or not. (huffington post)

The problem with the world today is that we are too focused upon the physical world and what our senses tell us, rather than tapping into the higher mind. When we let go of our thoughts, and are clear headed is when the soul comes through.

 

[Dosier]

I definitely go through periods of cleansing where I consume no meat for a while, and I feel a lot lighter, higher vibration, and even a bit more spiritually refined. For instance, today I ate some chicken and felt gross... my body needs a lot more veggies in the coming week. I've been blindly considering my winter diet even though it's spring now, and I don't need so much dense food to burn. But I cannot possibly continue the veggie trend long term otherwise I end up experiencing mental depression, among other things.

This, except for the mental depression.

Also, when I don't eat meat my piss is almost always clear and doesn't smell, nor does my body odor. When I eat meat, my piss stinks and is a dark color. Above all things I practice fasting regularly, and I believe this is the main reason which has lead me to my lasting youthful appearance. I notice people that eat meat age quicker, and people that stop eating meat actually start to reverse aging (personal observation), and look more youthful as well.

People talking about meat making them feel heavy, and yucky. It has to do with the lowering of the vibration in a sense. Eating vegetables, fruits, nuts, etc has provided me with unlimitted reserves of energy that I can't really remember that last time I actually felt 'tired'.

 

[BlueHues]

^This! I'm 36 and one of the most hardcore drug users of the worst drugs IV, and yet I still look in better shape than most 25 year olds....People are shocked when I tell them my age....People my own age treat me like I'm ten years younger and people 10 years younger think I'm a college age kid....It kind of sucks in some ways, but I'm cool with it....

with limited scientific knowledge, but quite a bit of experience with different spititual practices that exclude meat....I'd say...Low sodium, high fiber from vegetable and fruits, protein from nuts, beans etc, and hydration with clean water are the key to having good skin and that "clear" feeling....

Like I said, when I'm doing manual labor every day, I like to eat chicken or fish or eggs 2-3 times a week, but that's it.....

I'm not a snob, but when I see people eating Mcdonalds breakfast in the morning, even more meat for lunch, followed by yet an even heavier meat and potatoes based meal in the evening, I cringe! It's just greasy and harsh!

And I personally hate "food-snobs"....I just eat this way because it feels SO much better than eating crap!