Misc mood stabilisers, boring and depressing drugs?

[Neuroprotection]

if you see my post history, you’ll probably know I’m not very fond of anything that suppresses reward/dopamine function. although most mood stabilisers do suppress a wide range of emotions, including depression, they are generally much more potent in suppressing manic/hyper hedonic behaviours. by mood stabiliser I’m referring mainly to drugs like lithium, valproic acid and perhaps even SSRI antidepressants. of course, these drugs have their place in very specific circumstances like severe bipolar disorder or extreme anxiety. but I’ve noticed that such drugs are slowly creeping into addiction treatment and weight loss therapy. I should make clear that my definition of mood stabiliser also includes GLP1 agonists, most antipsychotics, neurosteroid inhibitors like finasteride. experimental drugs such as selective inhibitors of GSK3 Beta and PKC Definitely fall into this class and have been investigated as novel powerful treatments for bipolar disorder, especially against mania.
From reading online reports, i’ve noticed the theme of common complaints about flattened emotions, a sense of emptiness and loss of joy in life and apathy that comes with these substances. even more concerning, I’ve come across many studies and individuals praising such compounds as better alternatives to current addiction or obesity therapy. The idea is that they reduce or annihilate the human desire for the problematic behaviour, making the patient less likely to repeat it. maybe this is okay in the short term, but I just don’t think it’s sustainable long-term because humans need dopamine and the desires it induces.
So, I’d be interested to know if any of you have tried a mood stabiliser, especially lithium or valproate?
Did you feel that it made life boring?

 

[Psychlone Jack]

Probably the best psych med combo I've ever been on was 40mg fluoxetine and 900mg (later on 1150) of lithium carbonate. Granted, I was incarcerated, relatively clean with the exception of occasional synthetic cannabinoids and bupe, but the two together kept me balanced, upbeat and still in tune with my normal emotions in a way that was not attainable with either alone. Only reason I ever stopped was the lithium started causing some hypothyroidism.

 

[paltatomate]

i was prescribed SSRIs some years back to "help me through a rough situation", i had no idea about them and just took them.
it was one of the biggest mistakes in my life.
they made me feel anhedonic(?) to a point where i lost interest in doing anything, leaving me irritable and anxious. and the natural talent i have for creative problem solving (which is what i needed to do to get out of the bad situation) was completely inhibited.
it took me a year to get "clean" and four more to start feeling myself again (mostly because covid happend during my "recovery")

these drugs have their place in very specific circumstances like severe bipolar disorder or extreme anxiety

this in mind, i think people should be very cautious when they are prescribed this kind of medications. same goes for antipsychotics.
i have vague ideas why health care pros like so much to prescribe them, but unfortunately they do without even blinking.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Probably the best psych med combo I've ever been on was 40mg fluoxetine and 900mg (later on 1150) of lithium carbonate. Granted, I was incarcerated, relatively clean with the exception of occasional synthetic cannabinoids and bupe, but the two together kept me balanced, upbeat and still in tune with my normal emotions in a way that was not attainable with either alone. Only reason I ever stopped was the lithium started causing some hypothyroidism.

Thank you for sharing that. Really glad it worked out for you. In your case, the mood stabilisers probably balanced out the neural chemistry, allowing your brain to function as it normally should.

 

[Neuroprotection]

i was prescribed SSRIs some years back to "help me through a rough situation", i had no idea about them and just took them.
it was one of the biggest mistakes in my life.
they made me feel anhedonic(?) to a point where i lost interest in doing anything, leaving me irritable and anxious. and the natural talent i have for creative problem solving (which is what i needed to do to get out of the bad situation) was completely inhibited.
it took me a year to get "clean" and four more to start feeling myself again (mostly because covid happend during my "recovery")


this in mind, i think people should be very cautious when they are prescribed this kind of medications. same goes for antipsychotics.
i have vague ideas why health care pros like so much to prescribe them, but unfortunately they do without even blinking.

Really appreciate you sharing that, seems to back up what I’m saying, your horrible experience with SSRIs was almost certainly because they suppressed dopamine functioning at both main classes of dopamine receptors. that would explain the anhedonia and the sense of helplessness you experienced.
If you’re interested, I recommend you take a look at the role of dopamine in human behaviour and it’s neural chemistry, I believe dopamine could be the key to future chemical well-being enhancement.
As for why healthcare professionals seem to prefer mood stabilising/anti-reward drugs, The most obvious reason is there are low recreational potential. however, I can’t help but suspect there’s a deeper subconscious reason. I feel that many individuals feel that chronically enhancing human reward, or dealing with an addiction by replacing the problematic reward with another less harmful or even harmless one, is somehow wrong.
Even amongst the more compassionate scientists including those pushing for human well-being enhancements, i’ve noticed a bias in their research, strongly favouring serotonin or opioid pleasure pathways whilst completely ignoring dopamine. it is true to say that dopamine is probably not the pleasure chemical, and I’ve seen a lot of articles written about that. paradoxically, that actually makes dopamine more important for human happiness. That’s because it drives human desires, contributes to energy and alertness, and suppresses the perception of efforts making tasks easier. basically, without dopamine, actual pleasure would be pretty pointless and we would not want to pursue it, in fact we may become extremely bored with it.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

So, I’d be interested to know if any of you have tried a mood stabiliser, especially lithium or valproate?
Did you feel that it made life boring?

Valproate make life so flat, very slow and subtle unnoticeable till your there.
And its not even boring its more like sitting it out, knowing there used to be things like.
Drive, wants, goals ... a drug you don t feel a thing from.
But eventually turns you almost into a zombie. And the Bipolar was a misdiagnose btw.

Drugs are dampened just like joy and disaster. But it got so aggrivating i wanted to restart my ADHD meds. Dextro-Aphetamine, hoping to get back some drive. That drove the psychiater insane.
Can t have two disorders so the ADHD is gone.

So switched to Lamotrigine which doesn t share the blunting effects.

Real sorry for people wit Epilepsy as they need to take these meds, had 3 seizure s.
So also witnessed something even crazzier, Levtiracetam.
This 'med so called against seizures' that didn t do it for me, is a disaster.
Its given to you knwing you have insomnia, and one of its main side effects is insomnia.

It gives crazy wicked lucid nightmares. Daytime is charaterized by Kepprage [based on brandname]
So your over agitated all the time. And the mere fact they don t mention these side effects.
Say s enough about the ones prescribing them, not actual dr s just got there paper but know shit.

Even a letter from the Psychiatric side signed by all about the psychiatric side effects the med causes.
And why prescribe when there is allready a better tolerated better working med avaiable Valproic Acid.
They ignored the letter as they obviously get paid to prescribe it.

 

[Antares]

I've never been on a mood stabilizer for mood stabilization. But I've been on anti-seizure meds that have some overlap. Keppra in particular murdered my enjoyment of all things. I could sleep extremely easily, but couldn't get high on any substances, and didn't have the drive to do anything other than just the very rote task of putting together plastic models all day. And there was no sense of joy in any of it. I was only on it for about a week, but I think if it had gone on much longer I would probably have killed myself in pure emotionlessness. If you have to deal with all of life's shit, you better be able to enjoy the sprinkles of fun it has in it. If I have to deal with even just shitting, but I don't get to enjoy the sight of a pretty sky, that's enough reason to die. You need pleasure. Keppra ripped all of that from me from the very first dose.

Apparently gabapentin is also considered a mild mood stabilizer, but gabapentin has only ever enhanced life for me. If I was in a position where I needed a mood stabilizer, I'd start from the weakest possible (which is apparently gabapentin). If that wasn't sufficient, I might be willing to try lithium or maybe lamictal. If it gets to the point of antipsychotics or shit like valproate, I'm out. Just end me.

Side note, I am absolutely baffled any of these kinds of meds would be used in a weight-loss setting. Half of them promote weight gain, and some of them do it in sneaky fucked up ways that make you much more easily acquire diabetes. And then you sit around and do nothing all day because they wreck motivation. We must be talking about use only in severe eating addictions, surely?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I've never been on a mood stabilizer for mood stabilization. But I've been on anti-seizure meds that have some overlap. Keppra in particular murdered my enjoyment of all things. I could sleep extremely easily, but couldn't get high on any substances, and didn't have the drive to do anything other than just the very rote task of putting together plastic models all day. And there was no sense of joy in any of it. I was only on it for about a week, but I think if it had gone on much longer I would probably have killed myself in pure emotionlessness. If you have to deal with all of life's shit, you better be able to enjoy the sprinkles of fun it has in it. If I have to deal with even just shitting, but I don't get to enjoy the sight of a pretty sky, that's enough reason to die. You need pleasure. Keppra ripped all of that from me from the very first dose.

Apparently gabapentin is also considered a mild mood stabilizer, but gabapentin has only ever enhanced life for me. If I was in a position where I needed a mood stabilizer, I'd start from the weakest possible (which is apparently gabapentin). If that wasn't sufficient, I might be willing to try lithium or maybe lamictal. If it gets to the point of antipsychotics or shit like valproate, I'm out. Just end me.

Side note, I am absolutely baffled any of these kinds of meds would be used in a weight-loss setting. Half of them promote weight gain, and some of them do it in sneaky fucked up ways that make you much more easily acquire diabetes. And then you sit around and do nothing all day because they wreck motivation. We must be talking about use only in severe eating addictions, surely?

Thank you for sharing that, totally agree with your take on the stabilisers drugs.
In terms of weight loss, I was talking specifically about the GLP one agonists, the most popular one being Ozempic. it might not be a mood stabiliser in the traditional sense, but it has been found to suppress the rewards system, shutting down the desire to eat but in many cases the desire to do much else is obliterated along with it.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

I've never been on a mood stabilizer for mood stabilization. But I've been on anti-seizure meds that have some overlap. Keppra in particular murdered my enjoyment of all things. I could sleep extremely easily, but couldn't get high on any substances, and didn't have the drive to do anything other than just the very rote task of putting together plastic models all day. And there was no sense of joy in any of it. I was only on it for about a week, but I think if it had gone on much longer I would probably have killed myself in pure emotionlessness.

Technically you have only for a different indication. Must say after a seizure your brain so fried you don t notice,
or are aware enough to, notice the side effects. My experience but my seizures were brutal and the 1-st one.
Involving a ambulance and SEH/ ER hospitalization, where they totally screwed the right way to treat a seizure.
Resulting in Post-Ictal Psychosis which they also didn t get. The longer they last the bigger the damage.

Last seizure alone, still on Levetiracetam in a metal bed, imagine the damage.
And i sucked my Midazolam nosespray up. To no avail.

But lucky you could sleep on Levetiracetam, actually like a wonder. My Mom said i helt ovations during my sleep outloud.
Knew i did dream em and sometimes would awake during the allready lucid dream finding myself sitting & screaming outloud.

"Having killed yourself at the end". Another side effect they forgot to mention. A disturbing signe of lack of knowledge on seizures.
After a seizure it very common to have suicidal ideation, give someone a med that also does this. 1+1=3, crazy baldheads.
So that one very important reason to not take it and if regular checks should be protocol.

EDIT:
May increase suicidal feelings, in 0.1/ 1 %. Certainly did for me had everything ready.
But shared it with someone close and got talked out of it.
Looking back it was pure after effects of the seizure and Levetiracetam that almost took my life.

Dr s are obligated to check/ warn for this regularly, especially after seizures as they do to.
As for daytime agitation, seizure control and liver tests.
But dr s dont do this [follow protocol]. And when you request it they give you a hard time.
Bit like Valproic Acid, why ?

But dr s hate protocols, facts, science. Don t get it how Neurologists get ther diploma, as they no nothing.
Less then i learned myself about seizures in 2 years ?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I have noticed that psychiatry and even some scientific literature can be very bad when it comes to mixing up terminology, often lumping completely different conditions together or insinuating that certain drug effects are identical when in fact they are completely separate and operate with separate mechanisms.
Let’s take lithium as a good example. it is an anti-manic agent and that is what it does best. however, it’s anti-manic effects likely promote depressive behaviour or anhedonia, with many people complaining of this exact problem. however, under some circumstances lithium can actually have an antidepressant effect. The impact lithium will have depends largely on The current neurological/neuro chemical state of the brain, the type of disease and specific genetics. more importantly, the anti-manic and antidepressant effects of lithium are mediated by different and entirely opposite mechanisms. if anyone’s interested in the exact mechanisms, let me know and I will share them in my next post with relevant studies.
The other thing I wanted to mention is how stupidly mental health symptoms are lump together. for example, mania and psychosis have been used interchangeably even though they are entirely different. part of the problem might be animal models, where things like locomotor activity or stereotypes behaviours are used as models of human psychosis, even though they may have nothing to do with each other. being hyperactive and a bit manic is not the same as being deluded and hearing voices that aren’t there.

 

[Quasimodo_]

i was on finasteride while in rehab and yes it would flatten me out while also keeping me from sleeping through it

 

[Neuroprotection]

i was on finasteride while in rehab and yes it would flatten me out while also keeping me from sleeping through it

Finasteride is something I would runaway from. I know it helps some people, but I see its neural biological effects as absolutely hideous. apparently, it’s made a psychological effects are not caused by suppression of dopamine releases as previously thought, but instead it actually prevents dopamine receptor expressing neurons like those of the nucleus accumbens from responding to dopamine.
In animal studies it prevents the self administration of opioids, cocaine, amphetamine, and nicotine, likely because it takes out the motivational and pleasurable aspects of these drugs.
Just out of interest, did you notice decreased cravings when on finasteride?
Also, have you ever taken any recreational drug whilst on finasteride and if so, how did it make you feel?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I think that one special aspect of mood stabilisers, No matter the mechanism of action, is that they balance out or rather flatten the activity of brain networks. whether they decrease or increase brain network excitability, the final result seems to be decreased emotional responsiveness to all emotions although this is particularly stronger for suppression of positive emotions in most cases.
On paper, benzodiazepines should be the most powerful mood stabiliser given that they slow down neuron activity across the brain. in reality, they actually tend to slow down certain brain regions such as those involved in anxiety, while simultaneously disinhibiting others such as those responsible for reward and social interaction.
That’s actually why low doses of benzodiazepine and related sedatives along with alcohol produce a bit of a stimulant effect which people enjoy and become addicted to.

 

[MedicinalUser247]

if you see my post history, you’ll probably know I’m not very fond of anything that suppresses reward/dopamine function. although most mood stabilisers do suppress a wide range of emotions, including depression, they are generally much more potent in suppressing manic/hyper hedonic behaviours. by mood stabiliser I’m referring mainly to drugs like lithium, valproic acid and perhaps even SSRI antidepressants. of course, these drugs have their place in very specific circumstances like severe bipolar disorder or extreme anxiety. but I’ve noticed that such drugs are slowly creeping into addiction treatment and weight loss therapy. I should make clear that my definition of mood stabiliser also includes GLP1 agonists, most antipsychotics, neurosteroid inhibitors like finasteride. experimental drugs such as selective inhibitors of GSK3 Beta and PKC Definitely fall into this class and have been investigated as novel powerful treatments for bipolar disorder, especially against mania.
From reading online reports, i’ve noticed the theme of common complaints about flattened emotions, a sense of emptiness and loss of joy in life and apathy that comes with these substances. even more concerning, I’ve come across many studies and individuals praising such compounds as better alternatives to current addiction or obesity therapy. The idea is that they reduce or annihilate the human desire for the problematic behaviour, making the patient less likely to repeat it. maybe this is okay in the short term, but I just don’t think it’s sustainable long-term because humans need dopamine and the desires it induces.
So, I’d be interested to know if any of you have tried a mood stabiliser, especially lithium or valproate?
Did you feel that it made life boring?

I can't stand Lithium because it makes my hands shake. In my opinion Valproate is better.

 

[tokayeahok]

of course suboxone doesn’t really fit in this med category, but i’ve found it makes me a lot more numb and flat, which i don’t like at all


hope you’re all staying cozy

 

[Neuroprotection]

of course suboxone doesn’t really fit in this med category, but i’ve found it makes me a lot more numb and flat, which i don’t like at all


hope you’re all staying cozy

Is this a common Side effects of the opioid class generally, or is it specific to Suboxone?

 

[Neuroprotection]

I can't stand Lithium because it makes my hands shake. In my opinion Valproate is better.

If you don’t mind me asking, are you prescribed mood stabilisers for bipolar disorder?
Also, does valproic acid make you feel numb?

 

[tokayeahok]

Is this a common Side effects of the opioid class generally, or is it specific to Suboxone?

eh, really depends on the opioid. for me personally, things like kratom or oxycodone have an energizing feeling & euphoric. fentanyl just laid me down but with carried euphoria. i found the euphoria with things like fent moreso in the chase aka the drive to get it so i wouldn’t get sick - etc. suboxone, reported anecdotally, does make quite a few individuals feel numb but maybe lower doses can solve this in the induction stages? i just re-inducted and started on 12, and going to taper down to 4mg daily within this week. just a tiny rapid taper then to stabilize on 4mg again. you’ll get the ‘honeymoon phase’ with suboxone the first two weeks or so but then i just get really really flat and music doesn’t sound as interesting to me, which scares me since my identity is blanketed by being a musician lol!


cheers man

 

[Neuroprotection]

eh, really depends on the opioid. for me personally, things like kratom or oxycodone have an energizing feeling & euphoric. fentanyl just laid me down but with carried euphoria. i found the euphoria with things like fent moreso in the chase aka the drive to get it so i wouldn’t get sick - etc. suboxone, reported anecdotally, does make quite a few individuals feel numb but maybe lower doses can solve this in the induction stages? i just re-inducted and started on 12, and going to taper down to 4mg daily within this week. just a tiny rapid taper then to stabilize on 4mg again. you’ll get the ‘honeymoon phase’ with suboxone the first two weeks or so but then i just get really really flat and music doesn’t sound as interesting to me, which scares me since my identity is blanketed by being a musician lol!


cheers man

Yes, I believe that long-term opioid use can cause anhedonia/emotional flattening in some people, though Suboxone, specifically the buprenorphine component has a particularly bad reputation for causing this.
I can’t really find the mechanisms behind this, but I suspect it has something to do with increased activation of the Kappa opioid receptor, the opioid receptor responsible for negative emotions and depression. Kappa receptors are often upregulated in response to chronic use of rewarding drugs like cocaine or opioids. I should mention that these receptors produce their negative effects by decreasing noradrenaline and dopamine releasing the brain.
However, personally I think there might be a bit more to the equation. I believe that opioids may have a similar effect to SSRI antidepressants as at least acutely, they can release significant amounts of serotonin.
My suspicion is that aside from initial dopamine release, the mood stabilising/numbing effects of opioids when a person first starts using can be perceived as pleasant as it shields them from the stress, anxiety, and unpredictability of life. but this is not the natural state of humans and people may soon come to hate this feeling. I spoke to someone on this site who described the effects of so-called opioid blanket, a numbing effect from opioids which he described as extremely unpleasant.
I wish you the best of luck getting off opioids. please let me know if you want any recommendations to boost your open levels and help your recovery.

 

[tokayeahok]

Yes, I believe that long-term opioid use can cause anhedonia/emotional flattening in some people, though Suboxone, specifically the buprenorphine component has a particularly bad reputation for causing this.
I can’t really find the mechanisms behind this, but I suspect it has something to do with increased activation of the Kappa opioid receptor, the opioid receptor responsible for negative emotions and depression. Kappa receptors are often upregulated in response to chronic use of rewarding drugs like cocaine or opioids. I should mention that these receptors produce their negative effects by decreasing noradrenaline and dopamine releasing the brain.
However, personally I think there might be a bit more to the equation. I believe that opioids may have a similar effect to SSRI antidepressants as at least acutely, they can release significant amounts of serotonin.
My suspicion is that aside from initial dopamine release, the mood stabilising/numbing effects of opioids when a person first starts using can be perceived as pleasant as it shields them from the stress, anxiety, and unpredictability of life. but this is not the natural state of humans and people may soon come to hate this feeling. I spoke to someone on this site who described the effects of so-called opioid blanket, a numbing effect from opioids which he described as extremely unpleasant.
I wish you the best of luck getting off opioids. please let me know if you want any recommendations to boost your open levels and help your recovery.

as a pharmacy student, you hit the nail on the head. what a brilliant reply, i’ve been thinking the same about the kappa mechanisms