Harm Reduction Mitigating bladder damage caused by Ketamine

[ninjapirateroberts]

I was reading about how exactly K causes bladder damage; it seems like Ketamine Bladder Syndrome (or "Ketamine Cystitis") is primarily caused due to K's metabolites damaging epithelial cells of the bladder lining, which can cause urine to pass through the pores caused due to the cell damage (and thus causing Ketamine Cystitis or bladder damage). The blood or pieces of tissues in the urine are the damaged cells.

Changes to the bladder epithelial barrier are associated with ketamine-induced cystitis - PubMed

The aim of the present study was to investigate the changes of the bladder epithelial barrier in the pathogenesis of ketamine-induced cystitis (KIC). A total of 60 female mice were randomly allocated into control and ketamine groups, which received daily intraperitoneal injections of saline and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Symptoms also seem to show among 1/4th of frequent recreational uses (that is, urinary symptoms also seem to manifest with people who do not abuse K in multiple grams a day).

The prevalence and natural history of urinary symptoms among recreational ketamine users - PubMed

• Urinary tract symptoms are reported in over a quarter of regular ketamine users. • A dose and frequency response relationship has been shown between ketamine use and urinary symptoms. • Both users and primary-care providers need to be educated about urinary symptoms that may arise in ketamine...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I have read that epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG), an extract found in green tea, can limit bladder damage (damage to epithelial cells). A study conducted on rats seem to prove this:

The protective effect of green tea catechins on ketamine-induced cystitis in a rat model

To investigate the protective effect of green tea epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG) on long-term ketamine-induced ulcerative cystitis (KIC) using a keta…

www.sciencedirect.com

There are also reports of anecdotal evidence in humans as well:

Ketamine Cystitis: An Underrecognized Cause of Dysuria - Journal of General Internal Medicine

link.springer.com

Another paper suggests that taking drinking green tea or taking an EGCG supplement (below 800mg) an hour or two before the K dose might help mitigate bladder damage.

https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2903/j.efsa.2018.5239

Has anyone had experience with EGCG supplements or green tea for limiting bladder damage caused by K? I'm planning to give this a try since I use K recreationally (but so far I have not had any bladder issues but I have only used K for like 2 or 3 days so it might manifest itself over time).

 

[G_Chem]

I’ve noticed significantly less issues since implementing medicinal honey which also contains strong flavonoid antioxidants. Royal Jelly is great too. Main thing is to be topped off with antioxidants, the more bioavailable the better.

I had 2 bumps last night, one sublingually. Took it with pine honey and a little royal jelly. Zero increase in frequency and no other symptoms.

-GC

 

[Opi_Kid_Rock]

Anyone have a ballpark amount of Ketamine and frequency of use for humans to cause bladder damage?

I’ve been searching and couldn’t get a straight answer.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

nothing will override or block ketamine bladder damage and drinking green tea (caffeine) will worsen the pain and hurt your bladder. So will cranberry juice.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Anyone have a ballpark amount of Ketamine and frequency of use for humans to cause bladder damage?

I’ve been searching and couldn’t get a straight answer.

The shortest I saw documented in a scientific study out of a group in Japan was a patient that used for only 6 months at half a gram per day


It the ketamine bladder damage sticky in the psych forum I posted studies showing liver damage in clinical infusion patients so that’s pretty light use compared to a recreational user.

It varies greatly from person to person as some ppl develop this bladder damage without any ketamine use whatsoever. Some ppl can take more and some can’t handle much. Took me about 4 years of light but regular use to see damage.

 

[Foreigner]

I’ve noticed significantly less issues since implementing medicinal honey which also contains strong flavonoid antioxidants. Royal Jelly is great too. Main thing is to be topped off with antioxidants, the more bioavailable the better.

I had 2 bumps last night, one sublingually. Took it with pine honey and a little royal jelly. Zero increase in frequency and no other symptoms.

-GC

I was going to say... I suspect bladder damage from K is due to localized oxidative stress. I just looked this up to take a cursory glance, and it seems norketamine is further oxidized to hydroxynorketamine, so that is confirmation. In which case antioxidants and urinary demulcents might reduce, but not eliminate, the problem.

I wonder if a person's overall oxidation status would be predictive of bladder damage. I imagine if someone has no antioxidants in their diet, the problem will be much worse.

Still, the bladder epithelium is very thin... I don't think it can hold out forever.