Meth vs Cocaine seizure threshold

[jake the mistake]

My experience:

Meth
- i smoked as much ice as you can for stretches and never had a seizure.
- At worst, seizure precursors such as twitching and shakes

Cocaine
- 1 Grand Mal seizure
- 2 minute long, Foaming at mouth
- retired cocaine a long time ago because of this. The PTSD it caused could not convince me to go back.

i think my biggest mistake with the cocaine episode was not drinking alcohol that whole day. I genuinely believe some alcohol would have been safer. As far as meth goes, I can go bowl after without that worry and it's the only stimulant I'll touch.

What are your thoughts on on why this happened to me / how would you compare the seizure threshold between the 2?

 

[RoBoInSlowMo]

A lot of people seem to believe that Cocaine is the safer option out of two, I don't think so. I wish we had more information on this topic but until then, anecdotal evidence such as yours is very helpful.

 

[reflexor]

A lot of people seem to believe that Cocaine is the safer option out of two, I don't think so. I wish we had more information on this topic but until then, anecdotal evidence such as yours is very helpful.

In my opinion cocaine is much less safe than methamphetamine due to the heightened peripheral side effects seen in not-bunk cocaine.
Meth has a much cleaner high if you don't take it too far.

Although those twitches you are having are technically seizures, they are called simple focal seizures, they are generally an indicator that you were pretty close to having something more serious. At this point you should have a multivitamin and a teaspoon of baking soda to replenish the minerals and vitamins you have diluted.

Seizures can be induced by a variety of different factors, some include:

1. High fever - often people on stimulants don't even realise they have a high body temperature since their peripheral limbs are so cold - all this blood is directed to central organs, hence heating up internal temperature!
2. Abnormal levels of sodium can cause seizures
   1. The medical term for this is hyponatremia (too little sodium), the brain is greedy and it will attempt to match the normal level of sodium in the cranial cavity by directing all the water toward itself and retaining it
   2. This causes cerebral edema (brain swelling) due to the influx of water, the brain cannot handle cerebral edema and it eventually will lead to seizures
   3. When you ingest stimulants, you retain urine, you also drink a lot of water, which is essentially more water that is able to be reabsorbed into the blood via the tubules in the kidneys.
   4. Retaining too much water causes the dilution of minerals like sodium - hence causing hyponatremia and eventual cerebral edema

So, actually after analysing this a bit more, I would suggest that methamphetamine has more risk factors than cocaine in terms of diluting minerals and vitamins and glucose which are necessary for normal brain function. I agree with the RoBoInSlowMo - meth is more likely to induce a major seizure.

I have completed university courses in human anatomy and physiology, as well as courses in neuroscience - I am qualified enough to say these things

 

[RoBoInSlowMo]

In my opinion cocaine is much less safe than methamphetamine due to the heightened peripheral side effects seen in not-bunk cocaine.
Meth has a much cleaner high if you don't take it too far.

Although those twitches you are having are technically seizures, they are called simple focal seizures, they are generally an indicator that you were pretty close to having something more serious. At this point you should have a multivitamin and a teaspoon of baking soda to replenish the minerals and vitamins you have diluted.

Seizures can be induced by a variety of different factors, some include:

1. High fever - often people on stimulants don't even realise they have a high body temperature since their peripheral limbs are so cold - all this blood is directed to central organs, hence heating up internal temperature!
2. Abnormal levels of sodium can cause seizures
   1. The medical term for this is hyponatremia (too little sodium), the brain is greedy and it will attempt to match the normal level of sodium in the cranial cavity by directing all the water toward itself and retaining it
   2. This causes cerebral edema (brain swelling) due to the influx of water, the brain cannot handle cerebral edema and it eventually will lead to seizures
   3. When you ingest stimulants, you retain urine, you also drink a lot of water, which is essentially more water that is able to be reabsorbed into the blood via the tubules in the kidneys.
   4. Retaining too much water causes the dilution of minerals like sodium - hence causing hyponatremia and eventual cerebral edema

So, actually after analysing this a bit more, I would suggest that methamphetamine has more risk factors than cocaine in terms of diluting minerals and vitamins and glucose which are necessary for normal brain function. I agree with the RoBoInSlowMo - meth is more likely to induce a major seizure.

I have completed university courses in human anatomy and physiology, as well as courses in neuroscience - I am qualified enough to say these things

Ok very interesting. Have you heard that Cocaine is apparently more cardio toxic than Methamphetamine, I've heard a few different explanations, but I'd probably sound foolish try to explain it myself lol. This is very commonly accepted information on the geeky drug subreddits over on Reddit lol, just never got a full explanation.

 

[Joey]

Ok very interesting. Have you heard that Cocaine is apparently more cardio toxic than Methamphetamine, I've heard a few different explanations, but I'd probably sound foolish try to explain it myself lol. This is very commonly accepted information on the geeky drug subreddits over on Reddit lol, just never got a full explanation.

Coke is in fact more cardiotoxic and by a good measure. Don’t worry about the sketchy Reddit explanations. They’ve got their heart in the right place if they’re saying it’s tougher on it.

 

[reflexor]

Idk why you cardiotoxicity is being made apart of this question by both of y'all. To me, this doesn't relate to the argument, especially not with seizure threshold

I answered that part already, further relative discussion may ensue

 

[Mjäll]

In my opinion cocaine is much less safe than methamphetamine due to the heightened peripheral side effects seen in not-bunk cocaine.
Meth has a much cleaner high if you don't take it too far.

Although those twitches you are having are technically seizures, they are called simple focal seizures, they are generally an indicator that you were pretty close to having something more serious. At this point you should have a multivitamin and a teaspoon of baking soda to replenish the minerals and vitamins you have diluted.

Seizures can be induced by a variety of different factors, some include:

1. High fever - often people on stimulants don't even realise they have a high body temperature since their peripheral limbs are so cold - all this blood is directed to central organs, hence heating up internal temperature!
2. Abnormal levels of sodium can cause seizures
   1. The medical term for this is hyponatremia (too little sodium), the brain is greedy and it will attempt to match the normal level of sodium in the cranial cavity by directing all the water toward itself and retaining it
   2. This causes cerebral edema (brain swelling) due to the influx of water, the brain cannot handle cerebral edema and it eventually will lead to seizures
   3. When you ingest stimulants, you retain urine, you also drink a lot of water, which is essentially more water that is able to be reabsorbed into the blood via the tubules in the kidneys.
   4. Retaining too much water causes the dilution of minerals like sodium - hence causing hyponatremia and eventual cerebral edema

So, actually after analysing this a bit more, I would suggest that methamphetamine has more risk factors than cocaine in terms of diluting minerals and vitamins and glucose which are necessary for normal brain function. I agree with the RoBoInSlowMo - meth is more likely to induce a major seizure.

I have completed university courses in human anatomy and physiology, as well as courses in neuroscience - I am qualified enough to say these things

Your post contains a basic description of electrolyte depletion and seizure risk, followed by an unqualified statement that cocaine is safer than meth in this regard.

There is no connection between the generalized medical explanation and the bottomline statement comparing two specific drugs. Thus one must assume, until further notice, that you're simply trying to make your unsupported guesswork sound credible by proving yourself capable of understanding science.

You also bring up your education as a way to bolster up your personal credibility, again without giving any actual support to your statement about the issue at hand.

As far as i can tell this is manipulation and abuse of scientific prestige. It would be far more scientific to just make a guess than to portray it as more than a guess by dressing it up with scientific non sequitur.

Also you seem to be thinking you're in agreement with someone who actually made the opposite statement. RoBoInSloMo expressed disagreement with the view that cocaine is safer, and you "agree" that meth is more dangerous with regards to seizure risk.

 

[Mjäll]

I answered that part already, further relative discussion may ensue

No, you haven't answered the question of why cardiotoxicity was brought up in a thread about seizure risk.

I have read your posts like 5 times and they do not contain any answer to that question.

 

[Mr. Krinkle]

@jake the mistake that's a great name man - i like it

 

[MsDiz]

In my opinion cocaine is much less safe than methamphetamine due to the heightened peripheral side effects seen in not-bunk cocaine.
Meth has a much cleaner high if you don't take it too far.

Although those twitches you are having are technically seizures, they are called simple focal seizures, they are generally an indicator that you were pretty close to having something more serious. At this point you should have a multivitamin and a teaspoon of baking soda to replenish the minerals and vitamins you have diluted.

Seizures can be induced by a variety of different factors, some include:

1. High fever - often people on stimulants don't even realise they have a high body temperature since their peripheral limbs are so cold - all this blood is directed to central organs, hence heating up internal temperature!
2. Abnormal levels of sodium can cause seizures
   1. The medical term for this is hyponatremia (too little sodium), the brain is greedy and it will attempt to match the normal level of sodium in the cranial cavity by directing all the water toward itself and retaining it
   2. This causes cerebral edema (brain swelling) due to the influx of water, the brain cannot handle cerebral edema and it eventually will lead to seizures
   3. When you ingest stimulants, you retain urine, you also drink a lot of water, which is essentially more water that is able to be reabsorbed into the blood via the tubules in the kidneys.
   4. Retaining too much water causes the dilution of minerals like sodium - hence causing hyponatremia and eventual cerebral edema

So, actually after analysing this a bit more, I would suggest that methamphetamine has more risk factors than cocaine in terms of diluting minerals and vitamins and glucose which are necessary for normal brain function. I agree with the RoBoInSlowMo - meth is more likely to induce a major seizure.

I have completed university courses in human anatomy and physiology, as well as courses in neuroscience - I am qualified enough to say these things

Would you not say that the prolonged release of central monoamines and activation of the sympathetic nervous system that is responsible for most of the acute neurologic complications associated with methamphetamine use such a seizures? And I know for a fact I’m remembering that from a study I’ve read at some stage. I’m going to search for it now.

Edit to add the study and I’m so OCD I actually remembered that full line!

Neurologic manifestations of chronic methamphetamine abuse

Chronic methamphetamine abuse has devastating effects on the central nervous system. The degree to which addicts will tolerate the dysfunction in the way they think, feel, move, and even look, is a powerful testimony to the addictive properties of this ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[mewcury]

I have seizures now just about every time I use cocaine. Grand Mal ones, I don't remember them or anything before them, have a pretty long post ictal period (confusion, sleepiness, basically mentally retarded for at least 30 min to an hour like I couldn't tell you my name or who the president even is) after, generally piss myself. I stopped using coke after my 3rd one. They come on too fast and there's no warning signs for me. I consider myself lucky they didn't cause significant brain injury. I have used meth both smoking and IV for almost 3 years and daily most the time. I've overamped a few times but zero seizures. Dunno what the actual seizures threshold is for either but cocaine for me has a MUCH MUCH lower one. I also found after I had the first seizure from coke that I was much much more likely to have another and basically did every time I used a moderate amount of cocaine. I also only snorted coke. I didn't IV or smoke it ever.

 

[reflexor]

Ok very interesting. Have you heard that Cocaine is apparently more cardio toxic than Methamphetamine, I've heard a few different explanations, but I'd probably sound foolish try to explain it myself lol. This is very commonly accepted information on the geeky drug subreddits over on Reddit lol, just never got a full explanation.

To sum up based on the knowledge I have:

• Cocaine is a potent stimulant that causes vasoconstriction, or narrowing of blood vessels, leading to decreased blood flow to the heart and other organs
• Cocaine's vasoconstrictive effects are due to the drug's ability to block the reuptake of norepinephrine and other neurotransmitters, which leads to an excessive amount of these substances in the bloodstream
• Cocaine can cause chest pain, heart attacks, and other serious cardiovascular events
• Cocaine can also cause an acute increase in heart rate and blood pressure, which can put additional stress on the heart
• Meth's MOA involves the release of large amounts of dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain, leading to feelings of euphoria, increased energy, and heightened alertness
• Meth can also cause an increase in heart rate and blood pressure, but its effects on blood vessels are less direct and immediate than cocaine's
• Meth's effects on the cardiovascular system may be more prolonged but less acute than those of cocaine

 

[reflexor]

Your post contains a basic description of electrolyte depletion and seizure risk, followed by an unqualified statement that cocaine is safer than meth in this regard.

There is no connection between the generalized medical explanation and the bottomline statement comparing two specific drugs. Thus one must assume, until further notice, that you're simply trying to make your unsupported guesswork sound credible by proving yourself capable of understanding science.

You also bring up your education as a way to bolster up your personal credibility, again without giving any actual support to your statement about the issue at hand.

As far as i can tell this is manipulation and abuse of scientific prestige. It would be far more scientific to just make a guess than to portray it as more than a guess by dressing it up with scientific non sequitur.

Also you seem to be thinking you're in agreement with someone who actually made the opposite statement. RoBoInSloMo expressed disagreement with the view that cocaine is safer, and you "agree" that meth is more dangerous with regards to seizure risk.

Thank you for the fair feedback on my original message. I acknowledge that my explanation was poor and lacked clarity, and I understand how it may have come across as an attempt to abuse scientific prestige. I wasn't trying to claim my half-asleep analysis as absolute truth - it was more just a thought process that people could discuss and not intended to be taken as dogma.

However, my main point was that hyponatremia, or low sodium levels, can cause seizures. The relevance is that methamphetamine use is known to pose a greater risk of hyponatremia than cocaine use. Of course, both drugs do share other potential causes, I thought it would be a valid point to weigh really the only comparable factor that I knew of (development of low-sodium levels in the blood). While my original message may not have made this point clear, I wrote the post while trying to perhaps 'oversimplify' concepts, I had hoped it would be just a simplified, logical explanation of a complex topic.

While I did mention my education, I did not mean to use this as a way to bolster my personal credibility or to manipulate others. I understand that my credentials do not automatically make my opinions or statements valid, and I apologize if my mention of them came across as arrogant or inappropriate. I'd be happy to discuss this topic further if you disagree with my suggestion that methamphetamine use may increase the risk of having a seizure compared to cocaine.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

I always get muscle twitching and shakes when I use meth (~24mg of crystal meth oral ROA). I mostly believe it's due to stimulant-induced muscle stiffening, I take Magnesium Glycinate 200mg 30 minutes before the meth dose and after 12-15 hours onto the meth onset. It definitely helps with muscle stiffening. I really don't think (at least my muscle twitching) is caused due to a seizure on its way (but meth does reduce seizure threshold). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ninjapirateroberts]

But I reacted too much worse to cocaine than meth; with meth, my BP and HR would increase if I was sleep deprived and had minor panic episodes. But with cocaine, I get the worst panic attacks of my life out of nowhere, like after 7-8 hours of doing a line (I also didn't abuse it heavily - I took at most 30-40mg 3-4 times a day throughout the day). And I only used cocaine for about two weeks (I had to quit due to panic attacks which I usually get when I'm trying to sleep).

 

[Mjäll]

Thank you for the fair feedback on my original message. I acknowledge that my explanation was poor and lacked clarity, and I understand how it may have come across as an attempt to abuse scientific prestige. I wasn't trying to claim my half-asleep analysis as absolute truth - it was more just a thought process that people could discuss and not intended to be taken as dogma.

However, my main point was that hyponatremia, or low sodium levels, can cause seizures. The relevance is that methamphetamine use is known to pose a greater risk of hyponatremia than cocaine use. Of course, both drugs do share other potential causes, I thought it would be a valid point to weigh really the only comparable factor that I knew of (development of low-sodium levels in the blood). While my original message may not have made this point clear, I wrote the post while trying to perhaps 'oversimplify' concepts, I had hoped it would be just a simplified, logical explanation of a complex topic.

While I did mention my education, I did not mean to use this as a way to bolster my personal credibility or to manipulate others. I understand that my credentials do not automatically make my opinions or statements valid, and I apologize if my mention of them came across as arrogant or inappropriate. I'd be happy to discuss this topic further if you disagree with my suggestion that methamphetamine use may increase the risk of having a seizure compared to cocaine.

It's a strength to be accountable for a mistake. I applaud you for that.

I was criticizing the reasoning of your post from a general harm reduction and scientific POV, since i view logic as a strong feature of myself. My experience with stimulants is limited so i choose not to participate further in this discussion. Surely there are people with more experience and specific knowledge.

Cheers.

 

[jake the mistake]

I have seizures now just about every time I use cocaine. Grand Mal ones, I don't remember them or anything before them, have a pretty long post ictal period (confusion, sleepiness, basically mentally retarded for at least 30 min to an hour like I couldn't tell you my name or who the president even is) after, generally piss myself. I stopped using coke after my 3rd one. They come on too fast and there's no warning signs for me. I consider myself lucky they didn't cause significant brain injury. I have used meth both smoking and IV for almost 3 years and daily most the time. I've overamped a few times but zero seizures. Dunno what the actual seizures threshold is for either but cocaine for me has a MUCH MUCH lower one. I also found after I had the first seizure from coke that I was much much more likely to have another and basically did every time I used a moderate amount of cocaine. I also only snorted coke. I didn't IV or smoke it ever.

Out of curiosity, did u drink any alcohol any of the times you had cocained induced seizures? I’m a big believer that alcohol prevents a lot of cocaine seizures in people due to its GABAnergic properties

 

[emkee_reinvented]

My neurologist, which basickly is a empty title these days.
But lets assume she was right. Said dextro-Amphetamine therapeutical dosages.
Are not associated with increased risk of seizure. And adviced to keep taking em as,
she told years later Anti-Epileptics worsen ADHD. But my normal dr. thought otherwise.
stopped em and indeed i became ADHD on N2O. 1+1=3
Its also used as Turbo injection, not only as a drug [N2O].

Stress and sleepless nights though are the most common cause,
for a non Epileptic seizure.