Opioids Mental State after opioid dependence

[RoaminW]

I was able to completely taper off of Subutex after 1.5 years after getting out of the place I went to for my opioid dependence. One of the things that I’ve noticed while I’m not taking that medicine, or opioids, is that I seem to have lost my ability to feel content. I recall what that felt like, and that it was felt a few times per week during my life before my lumbar spine started to degenerate, and I began taking pain medication. Now that I don’t feel content, ever, except when my back goes out and I need a small compliment of pain medicine, I’m wondering if others have noticed this same thing post-opioid dependence.

1. How many of you have noticed this?
2. What has happened to that mechanism in my brain?
3. What can be done to help get that back?

TIA…

 

[Nurse Ratched]

I'm still not there but i have made peace with it. Whilst on oxy or vicodin I worked gladly every day, cooked good meals daily, the house was spotless, the yard was mowed, the car was washed, I wanted sex, all was right with the world.

I thought that's who i was but I had been deceived. It was all the pills. They made me feel that way. It was false. It wasn't the TRUE me because i needed a pill to just do all the stuff in life that everyone else was doing sober. Pills are fantastic for anxiety and depression. They cure it instantly. My world was wonderful as long as i had a pill in my pocket.

All that changed when there was no pill and I couldn't wiggle my nose and manifest one. I'm like now what the fuck do i do ? I still have to live and function every day. So I went and got some kratom and the rest is history.

I still crave that lovely, warm calm feeling ( and energy ) I got from opioids. No question I miss it. But it's not in my life anymore and i made peace with it.

About a year ago I started being able to function daily with everything ( cleaning, cooking, responsibilities ) without my beloved opioid painkillers. It's all good now as far as being a productive human being but that first 6 months is a bitch. Sat on the couch and watched TV a lot, ate sandwiches, took the dog out 5 times a day still but no long walks like i do now. Just pee and poo already and lets go back in. This was hard winter though too. friggin ten degrees outside. wash piled up. Dishes piled up. Didn't wanna do fuck all.

It's much better now.

 

[RoaminW]

Can I ask you what the reason was that you started, or kept using, the pain med was?

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Can I ask you what the reason was that you started, or kept using, the pain med was?

Plain and simply and honestly...........I loved the euphoria. I had no pain ( physical anyway.......obviously i had mental pain ).

Loved the high.........loved the way it made me feel.

 

[Isavela]

I was using/on daily Buprenorphine over 13years (8-24mg). It was actually pretty easy to quit (i really wanted to), physical withdrawals were completely over in 1,5 months. But mind recovers much slower, it took me about 8 months to start to feel normal at all. Still trying to figure out how to feel normally, it's been over a year now.

 

[RoaminW]

I was using/on daily Buprenorphine over 13years (8-24mg). It was actually pretty easy to quit (i really wanted to), physical withdrawals were completely over in 1,5 months. But mind recovers much slower, it took me about 8 months to start to feel normal at all. Still trying to figure out how to feel normally, it's been over a year now.

I think our brains (not our minds) get re-wired after prolonged opiate/oid use. I’m beginning to believe it may never return to pre-dependence levels. I think opi’s are thieves that way. I no longer feel content, ever. I miss it.

 

[plumbus-nine]

I was on all of the maintenance meds (bupe, done and morphine XR) for robust thee years and can definitely feel what you're in. I'm off any opioid besides Kratom for a year now and off Kratom for at least one month and life's just not the same as it used to be. I've felt that before and it led to a deep, destructive dissociative addiction but it might indeed be the opioids, or both, who are to blame. I believed these claims that one could use morphine for life without any long lasting toxicity besides obviously addiction but it isn't as simple. They're talking about physical stuff, not the mind, and it might be different for people in physical pain as well, as it kind of opposes opioid effects

Well I'm now in a constant anhedonia and something that sounds and feels like ADHD (I had ADD before but it was a joke compared to now, posted about this in another thread). It sucks. Wonder whether this is a result of too much dopamine for too long and affect users of almost all drugs. Did I take any stimulant or dissociative at low dose it would go away all for the duration of the agent.

What might help? Still looking. Exercise's the first option people recommend but it's hard and there are Meds as well, my favorite might be memantine which antagonizes NMDA and agonizes dopamine D2 receptors and relieves so called negative symptoms, also helps with opioid withdrawal and reduction of tolerance.

 

[TheUltimateFixx]

Well, you've basically been constantly artificially stimulating your brain. It will decrease its own dopamine production in response. In simplistic terms, while you as a user want the high, your brain wants chemical equilibrium. As far as your brain is concerned, putting in additional happy chemicals really is 'too much of a good thing'. This is why it gets harder and harder to reach that high, until eventually all the drug can achieve is to make you feel more or less normal, because your baseline has dropped so low.

When you stop, you have an imbalance because now you're producing very little dopamine. It's important to point out that this isn't the functioning of a 'diseased' or abnormal brain. It's the predictable functioning of a normal brain under ABNORMAL CONDITIONS. Just as it takes many months for your dopamine production to significantly reduce, it will also take many months for it to normalise again. 14 months or more is not a rarity.

I felt horribly 'flat' when I stopped regular heroin use, it was like a state of permanent depression. (of which I have experience.) The world seemed to be missing a dimension ; I had no joy in anything, no drive to do anything. I often thought 'fuck, if THIS is what life's gonna be like off the stuff I'm better off getting straight back on it'.
I decided to stick it out. You really need to give the process time, but you will be able to feel like a human being off drugs again. That's ruling out the unlikely scenario you've given yourself actual organic brain damage. And unless of course there's any psychiatric issues independent of your drug use (as there was in my case, it was a main factor in me getting hooked in the first place). If so those won't resolve themselves and will need to be seperately addressed.

 

[burn out]

For me I seem to recover almost completely after a few months with no opiates. I never feel content but I never felt content before opiates so I can't blame opiates for that. I say almost complete recovery because I still have the odd dream about opiates but day to day I don't crave them.

 

[RoaminW]

Well, you've basically been constantly artificially stimulating your brain. It will decrease its own dopamine production in response. In simplistic terms, while you as a user want the high, your brain wants chemical equilibrium. As far as your brain is concerned, putting in additional happy chemicals really is 'too much of a good thing'. This is why it gets harder and harder to reach that high, until eventually all the drug can achieve is to make you feel more or less normal, because your baseline has dropped so low.

When you stop, you have an imbalance because now you're producing very little dopamine. It's important to point out that this isn't the functioning of a 'diseased' or abnormal brain. It's the predictable functioning of a normal brain under ABNORMAL CONDITIONS. Just as it takes many months for your dopamine production to significantly reduce, it will also take many months for it to normalise again. 14 months or more is not a rarity.

I felt horribly 'flat' when I stopped regular heroin use, it was like a state of permanent depression. (of which I have experience.) The world seemed to be missing a dimension ; I had no joy in anything, no drive to do anything. I often thought 'fuck, if THIS is what life's gonna be like off the stuff I'm better off getting straight back on it'.
I decided to stick it out. You really need to give the process time, but you will be able to feel like a human being off drugs again. That's ruling out the unlikely scenario you've given yourself actual organic brain damage. And unless of course there's any psychiatric issues independent of your drug use (as there was in my case, it was a main factor in me getting hooked in the first place). If so those won't resolve themselves and will need to be seperately addressed.

Thanks! I’ve gone much further than 14 months. I do have psychiatric issues. No antidepressant has ever worked for me. I’ve only found two things that have helped. Those being a compliment of Tyl IV’s, and a ketamine infusion for depression. That shit fukin works! It’s just expensive and it’s all the way across town. As soon as I have $2000 and a sure ride back and forth, 4 times within 2 weeks, I’ll be doing all four sessions.

My friends used to call me the Jolly Rancher back in the day because I was always the first one up and calling everyone to do something that day. Now I rarely feel like doing a damn thing.

 

[plumbus-nine]

It doesn't surprise me that ketamine infusions help but a) doesn't this just prolong brain abnormalities and b) what about people like me who have a past of dissociative abuse? I felt the antidepressant effects fading over time and eventually would require to be on a Disso to function but this is a year past now. Wonder whether I should try ket again. Afaik you don't need the infusions for it to work, neither do you need to rely on these crazy expensive clinics. In my country there aren't any anyways so all I can do is getting some K and do it the good old way, through the nose. I can handle the cravings for more as long as the antidepressant / anhedonia lifting effect works.

Idk somehow was anhedonia one if the main reasons to start using drugs, just the ADHD is really new. I know that people tend to glorify the past so I'm not sure whether I now just know how life must feel for these on the winner side who barely even know how gifted they are, and never really appreciate it.

How bad is kratom about inducing anhedonia?
I think too that it won't be brain damage but long lasting changes in (at least) dopamine and there are addiction markets like DeltaFosB in the brain which take ages to reach baseline again once elevated. In papers long lasting changes are usually described as being toxic but that's wrong, toxicity is irreversible.

I wonder about psychopharms though. I've been on S/NRIs for many many years and quit also just recently but they stopped working a long time ago, I just stayed on the fucking venlafaxine because I couldn't bear the withdrawal. With a switch to fluoxetine and slow taper I'm off them now, no more abstinence brain zaps but said anhedonia and ADHD symptoms. I see no reason that prescribed drugs should be any different, just weaker than illicit drugs of abuse. Ketamine is a good example, it works well but turns when abused. Now year long SSRI use lies somewhere in between, therapeutical dosage but for far too long. Any clues about long term SSRI symptoms?

 

[Skorpio]

The past few years I have been alternating between periods of non-daily kratom use (like starts at weekly and gets cut off when it accelerates to more days on than off; this usually takes a few months) and sobriety. Usually I pull a few months before finding some excuse to jump back on the train. I truly don't believe I can use opioids and not fall into daily use. Anything less than that is an excruciating exercise of willpower, and frankly too much cognitive effort to be at all worth it.

Even after a couple of days of use I feel quite alienated from personal relationships in the weeks after I stop. This is really the biggest factor keeping me off of opioids, as I truly feel they take more than they give, and the mental instability following a period of use is just not worth it.

This effect does fade, which is usually the point when I forget how bad it was to go through and find a reason to mess around again.

The biggest thing that helps me is running, cooking, and playing musicas they give me moments of feeling truly content. Really any hobby where you get into a flow state is good to get yourself out of your head.

I do feel for you, I feel like I use other drugs (alcohol) in a more chaotic manner sometimes to fill in the hole, and that is something that I really can only deal with by being mindful. Sometimes I think about just getting on kratom and going steady on it would even out some of these habits, but I am almost positive that it is just a mirage; one of those lies you tell yourself to get around your own boundaries.

 

[nznity]

IME, after feeling heaven...evrn all of this mundane worlds contentment is not enough. U gotta have to learn how to live back this shite life without opis.

 

[Branggen]

Ive been off opiates for nearly 2.5 years now after about 6 years on (IV addiction) and I will say I found it gets better every few months, as long as you keep doing things that make life better not worse (when you are an IV addict theirs a lot to improve on in life). Around 2 years I got a good job and my social life began improving and that helped a lot. I think drugs in general wreck your ability to socialize because instead of getting pleasure from socializing we learn to derive pleasure from drugs alone. Socialization is a huge part of feeling normal and happy so if you feel lacking in that department I would say focus on that, its not easy but keep stepping out of your comfort zone because the comfort zone of an addict is very small

 

[VerbalTruist]

Sounds like PAWS.

I was able to completely taper off of Subutex after 1.5 years after getting out of the place I went to for my opioid dependence. One of the things that I’ve noticed while I’m not taking that medicine, or opioids, is that I seem to have lost my ability to feel content. I recall what that felt like, and that it was felt a few times per week during my life before my lumbar spine started to degenerate, and I began taking pain medication. Now that I don’t feel content, ever, except when my back goes out and I need a small compliment of pain medicine, I’m wondering if others have noticed this same thing post-opioid dependence.

1. How many of you have noticed this?
2. What has happened to that mechanism in my brain?
3. What can be done to help get that back?

TIA…

1. Yes. Sounds like PAWS
2. Your mu-receptors are depleted, for lack of a better, word.
3. Exercise helped me IMMENSELY. Diet helps too.

Edit: it gets better, but it takes time. Be strong. You’ve got this.

 

[Neuroborean]

They're talking about physical stuff, not the mind, and it might be different for people in physical pain as well, as it kind of opposes opioid effects

Well I'm now in a constant anhedonia and something that sounds and feels like ADHD (I had ADD before but it was a joke compared to now, posted about this in another thread). It sucks. Wonder whether this is a result of too much dopamine for too long and affect users of almost all drugs. Did I take any stimulant or dissociative at low dose it would go away all for the duration of the agent.

I think one of the most serious mistakes (or well, maybe self-delusion and anti-religious hate) of late 19th and 20th century Science was the fact that they despised the possibility of considering the terms "Spirit" and "Soul" as existing phenomena.
Most people consider them just religious bullshit and non-sensical terms and then throw them into the rubbish can of "magical thought". Not everyone, but well, that was the definite trend.
When you consider those terms you can also consider what was usually told about them and how we (humanity) used those terms for talking about human nature.
It makes a lot of sense about talking about soul or spirit when we talk about opioid dependence because what they seem to "deplete" or erode is some kind of integrity of what's called soul.
It makes sense to say, "my soul has been eroded/weakened by opioid use", makes much more sense than saying: "My mind has been..."
So, I think the fact that it cannot be "measured" in a scientific way doesn't make it less real.
In anycase I think the soul cannot be totally destroyed, so I think it's more like a "connection" with it, it's like some kind of dissociation from your inner self/soul.
Surely it has bio-chemical correlates but I don't think that path can be completely rebuilt just counting on meds or chemical support, they can just help, support, the reconnection, but it's something that it's difficult.

I saw your comment in the other thread and yes, I feel the same, my ADD wasn't ever as bad as today is, +4 years after kratom use. For me that's enough to think about ending my use of it, because I think it's not sustainable, even if it's beneficial for so many things.
I think dopamine drugs users end up with anhedonia generally, not a "kratom-thing" but more like a "constant dopamine release" thing. I'm pretty sure in a couple years you'll be the same you remember. But you know, I think in my life and I've always been craving dopamine, I think about my 15 years old myself, drinking a lot of alcohol, just for the temporary feeling of peace (not so much for socializing, for example) and the same happent some years after that, till 25 when I smoked cannabis regularly, it was all because of that peace of mind, then I found kratom when having 27.
Those years in between, without almost not using anything, was hell, I felt like shit and I didn't think it was because of dopamine craving, but I know now, since I finally recognized I have a super obvious undiagnosed ADHD.