MDMA + Speed - Effects/Neurotoxicity?

[BigTrancer]

There has been some recent thoughts coming to light about the possibility of the dopaminergic effects of speed adding to the neurotoxic effects of MDMA. This is postulated as a result of the dopamine release of speed facilitating 'contamination' (for want of a better term) of the seratonin receptors once MDMA has depleted the available seratonin in the brain. From what I understand, once seratonin levels have been diminished within the brain, dopamine can be used in its place, causing damage. I've searched around for information on this commonly used synergy of MDMA+Speed and I've found relatively little data on the subject.
Also a lot of people find that taking speed prior to a good pill has an effect on their perception of MDMA's effects, which is worth mentioning too.
Some thoughts I've noticed from the Loved Up vs. Fucked Up thread on this subject are provoking, and I think they merit discussion in their own right. (Sorry to all about creating this duplication of some posts, but I'd hate for discussion about such an interesting area to disappear on the second page of another topic).

Darkblade posted:
I thought I should probably mention that while MDMA + Speed = rushy combination of energy and euphoria, it is not altogether good for ur brain. As most of us know speed increases the levels of domamine in our brains, while the MDMA increases serotonin. The point is that speed lasts for much longer than MDMA and that when all the serotonin is gone the dopamine enters the serotonin recepters and kills them. Therefore speed + MDMA = greater neurotoxicity.
BTW: this is all speculation, but it is logical.
NE thoughts?
DB
Elliven posted:
Erp. I hadn't thought of that. It is pretty common for me to start off a big night by having a few lines of Mr.Go. I think it is a good way to get the night off to a flying start. Hadn't thought about neurotoxicity of it, grr. Thinking back, I agree that often the real blow-up of a pill can be somewhat masked by speed. In fact last time I was out the MDMA cap I had didn't seem to make me super loved up for long, possibly as BT mentioned I had gone beyond that into the internalisation of the pleasure, I sure felt good, but I have also been wondering if maybe the rushiness of the speed focuses my mind a little too much. As in I actively pay attention to how I am feeling, rather than letting go(I never actually realise how great I am feeling till later if you know what I mean...)
Fry-mo posted:
I'm curious for more ppls opinion on the hypothesis that starting the nite with a bit of Garry Wizzer before you pop will deaden the effects of the MDMA, and increase neurotoxicity.
I've recently begun starting the nite with a few lines of good go before leaving the house, primarily due to how tired I've been lately. And I've gotta say, I have noticed that my pills haven't been hitting quite as hard as usual.
Being someone who hasn't done copious amounts of speed over the years, I find that my peaks from pills seem diminished when I'm chargin'. I dunno if this is cause I'm more aware of the feeling of speeding or what? I know it's not a quality issue, as the pills taken recently have been better than ever!
I have also noticed that when I start to peak and I've taken good speed earlier I get really bad headaches...
Any thoughts?
Darkblade posted:
Well I know a girl who when she takes speed, the MDMA has no effect. I remember that she has a whole green CU and it did absolutely nothing. It must be something strange about her brain chemistry. But yeah, if she has speed, pills don't work at all.
Strange...
DB

Can anyone supply more information about speed contributing to MDMA neurotoxicity?
BigTrancer

PS: I just found a really comprehensive article: "Chronic Amphetamine Use and Abuse" by Everett H. Ellinwood, M.D., George King, Ph.D. and Tong H. Lee, M.D. Ph.D.... I haven't had a chance to digest it all yet, but a quick read seems to indicate that at high doses, methamphetamine can act as an MAOI, which would add weight to the argument that speed exacerbates MDMA neurotoxicity.
[This message has been edited by BigTrancer (edited 09 August 2000).]

 

[GhOst]

this is a contribution based on my own experience, not medical documentation or research, regarding the usage of speed together wif mdma.
1 nite i took pure speed wif 1 of my favourite pills (which has NEVER failed me b4). the result was dat i was completely stoned (almost to the point of paralysis) fer 2hrs. i couldnt walk, couldnt stand, couldnt even speak.
i dun have an explanation fer this. has nvr happened b4. but i noe i'll nvr wanna risk it happening again. nomore mixing speed n pills fer me.
>'.'<
------------------
~littleHKlaserTriPPeR~

 

[Biscuit]

ok this isnt got scientific backing but:
Dopamine released via speed should not effect the serotonin system on its own right. If that were so ADD sufferers on dexamphetamine would be damaging their serotonin system every day.
It is something to do with MDMA i think. MDMA releases serotonin as we know but when all is released it begins releasing dopamine as a substitute in a place where it shouldnt be released damaging serotonin receptors or axons?
Hence i would not have thought speed b4 MDMA would cause this damage and maybe after it either, as speed should still be in the dopamine system right? not crossing over into the serotonin section where MDMA likes to be. By sections i mean the neurons/cells designed for dopamine/serotonin.
To the people who say speed causes MDMA not to hit as hard well thats easy.
By hit u mean like a slap in the face, need to take a seat and take it all in, almost appraching more MDEA like fucked ness b4 the loved up feeling kicks in?
Thats coz dopamine release essentially combats the serotonin release, and u r not "hit" with a tonne of bricks but wonderfully loved up.
Serotonin is really the opposite to dopamine i feel. One after all is for sleep, love and tranquility; the other is for adrenaline and initiating the fight or flight response, getting things done etc. Its just with MDMA they combine to produce something truly incredible.
[This message has been edited by Biscuit (edited 09 August 2000).]

 

[BigTrancer]

I agree, I think that speed before MDMA tends to mask the wonderful rushy come-up of the MDMA. There have been times when personally I have thought that a good pill has not been affecting me well, and considered taking another. Then I've waited for ten or fifteen minutes and been glad that I did, because I hadn't realised at the time how messed up I was, due to the speed covering up the MDMA blowup.
With regards to the seratonin receptor damage, I think that when the seratonin is used up, dopamine can be bound to the seratonin receptors. The dopamine is broken down by monoamine oxidase, and the byproduct is hydroxyl radicals which do the damage. As we know, this effect can be reduced by SSRIs taken as a post load so that the remaining seratonin is used up slower. In the above article, there is a mention that dopamine is regenerated something like twice as quickly as seratonin (I must make time to fully read the whole thing in it's excruciating detail) so pre- and post-loading is definitely worth considering when embarking on polydrug use.
BigTrancer

 

[HappyCamper]

I know this is slightly OT, but i have found that if I have MDMA one week, and in the next week or 2 have some speed, it isn't nelly as effective ?
I am not sure if this is due in part to the MDMA or that is was not-so-good speed.
Any thoughts ?
H-C
PS Still listening to that Water CD BigTrancer ? hehehe

 

[Decimal Dan]

Ok ummm, 2 points: 1 of pure MDMA and 1 of pure speed.
Before the Advent a few months back, I was dabbling in my baggie of pure orange speed crystals to get the heart pumping for the night out. After consuming about 1/4 - 1/2 a point of pure speed, I necked a cap of pure MDMA. The result? EXCELLENT!
About 1-2 hours later I was floating around the dancefloor, grin on my face you couldn't get off with steel wool. No really big rushes, just happy as larry and full of energy.
Comedown = non-existent. I think that was because I had my hands on pure substances - no unknown crappy additives.
Thats my experience of the combo anyway.
Dan

 

[TiggerChic]

GhOst - I totally agree with you - i had a nearly identical experience - and i didn't find it pleasant - after 1/4point and then a pill (a BT, so you ALL know how good they were!) i felt like i couldn't move - and instead of the the jaw-clenches, i couldn't even shut my mouth!! Couln't even talk - looked like i had seen a GhOst or something

So the combination didn't feel very good - there has to be some sort of masking of the effects of the pill by the speed.
I guess each person experiences it differently though... i want to try each separately for a little while longer b4 i mix again

(sorry, don't think i actually added anything to this thread, just hope i have reassured GhOst in her reaction with flipping)

 

[BigTrancer]

Right as rain TiggerChic. That's was half the purpose for this thread, to talk about speed and MDMA combined, variations in the effect of either upon combination, any differences in the comedown (if any) noted.
The other half of the purpose is for serious fact finding missions on speed+MDMA neurotoxicity, because from what I've been able to find, relatively little has been said around the place about this topic. Perhaps that's because people tend to see speed and MDMA as very similar chemicals (and atom for atom I guess they are quite close) and so they figure: 'MDMA+speed - why bother? You're already sped up from one amphetamine, why take the other?'... And I know a lot of people take them together.
That's why I want to see if anyone else has stumbled across good information.
BigTrancer

 

[drawkcab]

Interesting, allthough I had a night where it was the opposite: about two months ago I had mixed substance night, but maybe cause of my nickname *wink* I did the process backwards.
Started out the night with a white mitsubishi, which was mdxx of some sought - mdea I believe. Was a relatively nice pill, the lights were so damn pwetty etc..

About 3.5 hours later after I felt the peak was diminishing, I had a yellow tweety (jam packed speed).
If anything I felt that the addition of speed intensified the MDxx. 30 mins after dropping the tweety, I started experiencing this incredible time warp sensation, also the lighting started to return to its previously attractive state. Although within an hour after this these effects were gone, leaving me with the BzZZzzZzz.
To assert that the tweety itself didnt contain any substances which would contribute to those types of effects, I had two friends who munched tweeties only - both agreed that they were speed only. Not to mention I Ez'd them

In other situations iv found that speed before hand really softens the blow of the come up, but I think this would just be a psychological affect, as the body is semi-adjusted to being in an altered state ?
Probly totally scientifically wrong, but thats how I found it.

 

[SpankY]

Ok, heres my little bunch of thoughts:
Speed releases dopamine in the brain. But so does a lot of other stuff, for example, eating, drinking, exercising, nicotine... nearly anything will give you a little dopamine rush.
So Im of the opinion that if you have depleted all the serotonin in your brain, there will be enuff dopamine hanging around to do the damage it would have done anyway. It all depends on the amount of dopamine required to damage your serotonin releasing neurons - if you have a massive flush of dopamine in the area will it do much more damage? Or will a small amount (which is probably present anyway) do the same amount of damage as a large amount... hmm i dunno.
Anyway, it seems another damn good reason to dose up with that 5HTP. I wanna get myself some prozac as well - did anyone hear if, umm... Pink? i think it was? have any luck ordering it from NZ? Ive also heard that st. johns wort does a very similar thing to prozac - would that be healthy to take on the comedown as well?
SpankY

 

[dangermouse]

my experience at big day out this year:
dropped half a eurodollar at 10am. peaked sorta till about 12am... nothing really big. had one speed pill cut into 4 throughout the rest of the day... hadnt eaten anything either. was just floating around in the afternoon, the speed a good upper, no charge or peak just the usual focus speed gives you...
at 9pm, after a whole day of speeding i did the other half of the eurodollar and let me tell you i peaked HARD. i had to stop dancing, and i was looking up at basement jaxx going "holy fuck... fuck me dead..." and my girlfriend at the time looked at me said "what the FUCK happened to you!?"
i think in that case it was the fact that i hadn't eaten all day and i had been moving around all day so the blood was well and truly flying around my system. but let me tell you, off half a pill i peaked so hard for about 2 hours it wasn't funny. i've never been able to get to that state again!
------------------
..dangermouse..
.you've gotta lose it.
.to find it.

 

[GhOst]

*big HUGs to TiggerChic wif little paws*
at dat time when it happened, i had this weird logic which i came up wif myself.
perhaps i "oversped"? ie. sped too fast fer my system to handle it. so it "crashed" fer awhile, like a system error in computers...
>'.'<
------------------
~littleHKlaserTriPPeR~

 

[MíkeySåmmy]

BT - very good of you to start this post. its very interesting, i dont know why but i hadnt thought of this before. i have done research on mdma as i was interested to know how it all worked.. but as i have never really thought about speed in the same way, i havent done my research there.
and so i will.
if i find anything, i'll link it.
------------------
The red blinky world is a whole lot different to this one.

 

[Elliven]

Okay, I am not sure if this is valid, maybe someone with more knowledge could confirm:
As MDMA releases both serotonin and dopamine, would it not be possible to preload with plenty L-tyrosine if you wanted a more rushy/dancy feel from a pill. As far as I know L-tyrosine is a reasonable precursor for dopamine production?? Does anyone know if this would work? That way it would be possible to preload depending on how you wanted the night to go, 5htp for a chatty sit around, L-tyrosine for a crazy dance around...

 

[BigTrancer]

Here's a clip from the EVERYONE READ faq... (

)

4) Dosages on preloading will ultimately come down to personal experimentation / individual biochemistry / etc. Revisions:
preload:
5HTP : 100-400mg : modulate up or down depending on how empathic you want your roll to be. Remember that there will be some degree of competition between 5HTP and Tyrosine [if you include it in your preload] and hence if you want one effect over the otehr you may wish to decrease the relative dosage of the other preload ingredients.
L-Tyrosine : 500-3000mg : modulate up or down to increase the body rush / euphoric sensations
DLPA : 500-3000mg : modulate up or down to increase the body rush / euphoric sensation
NOTE: Simply downing bottles at a time of the aforementioned precursors simply for the sake of "ThE FreEkIn BEsT RoLl EvAH!" is not going to happen. The conversion processes are enzyme limited, meaning that you can only convert by how much enzyme you have available in your body to do so. Individual differences in biochemistry mean individual differences in how much can be produced. Usually enzymatic function is governed by temporal intensity - meaning that they can only do a certain amount at one time.

BigTrancer

 

[Elliven]

(hangs head in shame)
I should be degraded to Ultra again...

My excuse is stupid drugs killing my brain, I have read that faq.
[This message has been edited by Elliven (edited 12 August 2000).]

 

[TiggerChic]

GhOst - That idea about 'overspeeding' doesn't sound as silly as you think... I was actually thinking the same sort of thing.

When you have speed, it affects your brain, but it also appears to give you lots of energy - you know, twitching, buzzing, talking real fast. Now this energy is not created by the wizz - it has to come from somewhere so i reakon that the speed somehow dipps into your energy reserves and uses them up - the more speed, the more reserves you use up so the longer you can keep going - but similarly when the speed wears off, you feel really tired - even more tired than if you had gone a whole night straight maybe?
So if you "overspeed" you do feel drained... and combined with a strong pill, you seriously can't move and are paralysed some what...
I think next time i'll try what drawkcab suggested and try the speed after the pill.
TC

 

[MíkeySåmmy]

Ok, I've been looking for more information on this topic, and as BT said - it seems there is little information available in this specific area.
I also thought it would be good to bring it up again.
I am still searching, though I have found some resources of interest, and I thought I might as well put these ones up in the meantime.
I'm sure some of you would be interested.
Seratonin and Dopamine System Interactions in the Reinforcing Proporties of Psychostimulants : A Research Strategy http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v07n3/07305tan.html
MDMA Neurotoxicity Resources http://www.txraves.org/~docneuron/neurotox.html
WWW Resources on Neurotransmitters http://www.cerebral.org/neurotrans.html
I haven't looked at these extensively as yet - maybe some of you guys can help me out.
Cheers.
M.S.

 

[Its Chaos]

this is from own experience!
if im to have speed before a roll,it only masks it to a point.Thats when i believe the blood is flowing at a nice flat stick rate,that it starts to help absorb the pill quicker!Makeing for a not so banging blow up,but keep me rolling but with a bit more go in me!
Though im not a fan of speed,i just chew my pill and just wait

if for some reason i still want to keep going the next day,and i havnt got another pill.I will have some speed,because i think that getting the blood flowing again helps the pill come back on!
Thats just my opinion from my own experincess.Sorry i could be much help in the the technical,no.Biological?department.But im shore glad the rest of yeas are!

 

[atomica]

yeah matzuber, i think you're definately on the right track... well, i'm doing neuropsychology this semester, its all about all this stuff, so maybe by the end i'll be able to explain it all! hehe maybe not, i'm failing....
ohyeah.. spanky! i hope you read this...
dont take st johns wort!! i read someplace that it acts as an MAOI and as we all know, that is a bad mix w/ mdma. very bad. now i think it only works that way mildly but you dont want to risk it. maoi's are another, different type of antidepressant, which is why the ol st johns wort can make you feel better. but it works on the neurons in a whole different way to mdma and SSRI's (prozac)
about ordering prozac... i dont know that you actually need *prozac*. i think any SSRI antidepressant will do the trick. i have LOVAN for my manic depression - it is like prozac.. prozac is fluoxitine and lovan is fluoxitine hydrochloride (or something like that, its a different form of the same chemical). but it does the same job. you can get that local from a doctor. i hope n pray that it works as good as prozac or i'm fukt.
smilez ppl, hope y'all are playing safe =)