phase_dancer
Bluelight Crew
Bitch and Entropope, I'm not sure this answers completely the question of MDMA: what differences in activity from different routes of production? but here goes anyway.
MDXX substances are usually made from the starting materials safrole or piperonal. Both are available from nature. However everything else from this point on is synthetic, including the final product.
The exeption is perhaps MDA, which is theoretically produced in vivo from the action of the liver on safrole containing herbs and spices (A. Shulgin- Pihkal #157).
Many routes from other naturally sourced materials are known but are generally more lengthy and complicated. There are also many theoretical routes using functional group conversion, but most are met with limits regarding the fragility of the molecule.
The usual route, which may be any one of several variations, is via the ketone MDP2P.
The first Mitsi's to circulate throughout Britain in 97 we're made directly from MDP2P, suspected of being supplied by the Russian Mafia. Traded as PMK, it is virtualy one step away from MDXX. MDMA made from PMK was said to "...not have such a natural rush as that made from safrole" (mixmag april 97,page 55). There is no scientific reasoning for this other than perhaps purity or enantiomer ratios (see below).
Another starting route often mentioned in Chem literature (1-2nd year Uni stuff) is by way of halosafroles. This method is tricky and still requires attaching the amine molecule. It is unlikely to be used in large scale clandestine production as yields are low with most methods and others require high temps and pressures.
To convert the ketone to the amine, a process called reductive amination is required. This is where the XX is added to the molecule, be it MDMA, MDEA or MDA that is the intended product. The type of amine used determines the XX.
A probable reason that much MDEA and MDA are made, is the relative ease one can often obtain the appropriate amine. That required for the MA part is and has been a watched chemical since the beginning of illegal meth manufacturing during the 60's.
With any multistep synthesis, variables can be introduced at each stage during manufacture. If the MA part is separately synthesized, the potential is much greater. In less than optimium situations, contamination from dirty glassware or from non pharmaceutical grade reagents and precursors can also cause side reactions; chemicals that could slip past washes into the final product.
If factors such as pH and temperature are not carefully controlled, substances such as dimers, aldol condensation products (the ketone reacts with itself and then can react again with the aldol product) as well as other secondary amines can be produced. Many of these are potential toxins.
The MD part of the molecule is also very fragile and can easily be 'broken off' by extreme conditions e.g. high temps.
These impurities could well account for some side effects noted with various batches of MDXX, as many poisons also create feelings of fatigue, overheating and nausea.
An experienced chemist can quite easily optimise conditions of manufacture, thus preventing or eliminating products from side reactions and contaminants. As most MDMA is assumed to be coming from labs overseas that employ qualified chemists recruited often from poorer countries, the likelihood of such problems is probably low. Loally produced pills however could carry a host of such problems. Speed via pseudoephedrine reduction carries similar risks of side reactions. Many paople making this have NO real knowledge of chemistry.
To accuately test for such nasties, GC or HPLC analysis would need to be employed (check the post on bluelight regarding HPLC use at a rave)
It is generally known that MDMA, MDEA, and MDA all have different psychotropic effects. Without going into too much detail, many different physical forms of a molecule can exist for the same compound. MDMA and other amphetamines exist in mirror image forms known as enantiomers, usually produced in equal amounts. Both are psychoactive with MDXX, but the (+) variety of MDMA is recorded as being more of an empathy producing form in humans (CRC Handbook on Enantiomers).
To separate these two forms, one would require chromatography. It is very much doubted though that conscientious producers would be inclined to refine their product to such a degree.
Regardless of the route employed and excluding contaminants, enantiomer ratios can really be the only variation possible with different routes, especially if the amine is derived from a non chiral molecule.
phase_dancer
MDXX substances are usually made from the starting materials safrole or piperonal. Both are available from nature. However everything else from this point on is synthetic, including the final product.
The exeption is perhaps MDA, which is theoretically produced in vivo from the action of the liver on safrole containing herbs and spices (A. Shulgin- Pihkal #157).
Many routes from other naturally sourced materials are known but are generally more lengthy and complicated. There are also many theoretical routes using functional group conversion, but most are met with limits regarding the fragility of the molecule.
The usual route, which may be any one of several variations, is via the ketone MDP2P.
The first Mitsi's to circulate throughout Britain in 97 we're made directly from MDP2P, suspected of being supplied by the Russian Mafia. Traded as PMK, it is virtualy one step away from MDXX. MDMA made from PMK was said to "...not have such a natural rush as that made from safrole" (mixmag april 97,page 55). There is no scientific reasoning for this other than perhaps purity or enantiomer ratios (see below).
Another starting route often mentioned in Chem literature (1-2nd year Uni stuff) is by way of halosafroles. This method is tricky and still requires attaching the amine molecule. It is unlikely to be used in large scale clandestine production as yields are low with most methods and others require high temps and pressures.
To convert the ketone to the amine, a process called reductive amination is required. This is where the XX is added to the molecule, be it MDMA, MDEA or MDA that is the intended product. The type of amine used determines the XX.
A probable reason that much MDEA and MDA are made, is the relative ease one can often obtain the appropriate amine. That required for the MA part is and has been a watched chemical since the beginning of illegal meth manufacturing during the 60's.
With any multistep synthesis, variables can be introduced at each stage during manufacture. If the MA part is separately synthesized, the potential is much greater. In less than optimium situations, contamination from dirty glassware or from non pharmaceutical grade reagents and precursors can also cause side reactions; chemicals that could slip past washes into the final product.
If factors such as pH and temperature are not carefully controlled, substances such as dimers, aldol condensation products (the ketone reacts with itself and then can react again with the aldol product) as well as other secondary amines can be produced. Many of these are potential toxins.
The MD part of the molecule is also very fragile and can easily be 'broken off' by extreme conditions e.g. high temps.
These impurities could well account for some side effects noted with various batches of MDXX, as many poisons also create feelings of fatigue, overheating and nausea.
An experienced chemist can quite easily optimise conditions of manufacture, thus preventing or eliminating products from side reactions and contaminants. As most MDMA is assumed to be coming from labs overseas that employ qualified chemists recruited often from poorer countries, the likelihood of such problems is probably low. Loally produced pills however could carry a host of such problems. Speed via pseudoephedrine reduction carries similar risks of side reactions. Many paople making this have NO real knowledge of chemistry.
To accuately test for such nasties, GC or HPLC analysis would need to be employed (check the post on bluelight regarding HPLC use at a rave)
It is generally known that MDMA, MDEA, and MDA all have different psychotropic effects. Without going into too much detail, many different physical forms of a molecule can exist for the same compound. MDMA and other amphetamines exist in mirror image forms known as enantiomers, usually produced in equal amounts. Both are psychoactive with MDXX, but the (+) variety of MDMA is recorded as being more of an empathy producing form in humans (CRC Handbook on Enantiomers).
To separate these two forms, one would require chromatography. It is very much doubted though that conscientious producers would be inclined to refine their product to such a degree.
Regardless of the route employed and excluding contaminants, enantiomer ratios can really be the only variation possible with different routes, especially if the amine is derived from a non chiral molecule.
phase_dancer
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does in fact leave a lot more impurities in the final product so there for in the final product through both synthesis you do in fact come out with mdma however i can almost promise they would effect you differently.In my opinion (and im sure to be shot down as per usual!)several pills have smacked me out silly and have DEFINATELY had mdma in them..Yet other mdma pills are as clean as can be... clear head nice smooth beam...Now many will say its the amount of MDMA in the pills..So with the clean ones why is it that when I double dunk i still dont get smacked out? My theory (and it is just that) that smacky mdma has been made the cheap and nasty way avoiding the clean process that is the mdp-2-p rought.Dance id like to hear your reply to this as i really think only you could comment!