MDMA overuse (high doses), and a significant worsening of sleep problems

[mborowiec512]

Hi,
I have taken MDMA in crystal 3 times in high doses. One day 0.5g, the next 1g and a week or two later 1 gram.

Since then, I've had to increase my dose of the sleep drug ketrel (also known as quetaplex, substance quetiapine) significantly in order to sleep. Without taking the drug it will be hard to fall asleep, sometimes after the drug I fall asleep for more than 30 minutes anyway. I've been to the cardiologist and he said my heart is good. The problem with sleeping after ketrel is that after waking up (sleeping enough hours or more then 9hours) I'm still sleepy and it is hard for me to predict how much sleep I will get whether 5 hours or over 10.

The last time I took MDMA was in November

I assume there will be someone on this forum who has had/has a similar problem.

How have you managed to cope with it? If not cope then how do you deal with it?
Did the problem pass after a period of time? If so, after what time?

Thanks in advance for your help

 

[fairnymph]

Why take such high doses of MDMA? Your problems do make sense given you’re prescribed is a serotonergic (among other things) drug. My guess would be that you’ve done some hopefully only short term damage to your serotonin and possibly other receptors which only time can heal. I think you’d be better off switching to another sleeping med that doesn’t impact serotonin receptors, at least temporarily. If you tell your doctor it’s not working and you need high doses which you can’t tolerate, hopefully he will give you something else, at least a z-drug. Have you ever tried going a few days without taking any quetiapine at all? Given its complex mechanisms of action I’m concerned that it might be inhibiting your healing. If you could be on nothing at all for several months while you focus on optimising your health that would likely be ideal. If that’s not an option because of severe insomnia, then I would use a GABAergic drug, as minimally as possible - if possible, no more than every third night, for a few months. But I really need to know more about why you’re taking it to begin with and how bad your insomnia is.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Hi,
I have taken MDMA in crystal 3 times in high doses. One day 0.5g, the next 1g and a week or two later 1 gram.

Since then, I've had to increase my dose of the sleep drug ketrel (also known as quetaplex, substance quetiapine) significantly in order to sleep. Without taking the drug it will be hard to fall asleep, sometimes after the drug I fall asleep for more than 30 minutes anyway. I've been to the cardiologist and he said my heart is git. The problem with sleeping after ketrel is that in the morning I am nauseated and it is hard for me to predict how much sleep I will get whether 5 hours or over 10.

The last time I took MDMA was in November

I assume there will be someone on this forum who has had/has a similar problem.

How have you managed to cope with it? If not cope then how do you deal with it?
Did the problem pass after a period of time? If so, after what time?

Thanks in advance for your help

Quetiapine, according to the dutch Dr medication Bible.
Off label use as sleep medication is discouraged and disadvised.

If your not psychotic, your dr is wrong. But as Fairnymph already wrote.
Your MDMA consumption is over the top. And isn t Quetiapine also anti-emetic ?

Which would indicate the naussea has a other source.
Too much MDMA, and/ or to little fluids and food ?

 

[mborowiec512]

Quetiapine, according to the dutch Dr medication Bible.
Off label use as sleep medication is discouraged and disadvised.

If your not psychotic, your dr is wrong. But as Fairnymph already wrote.
. And isn t Quetiapine also anti-emetic ?

Which would indicate the naussea has a other source.
Too much MDMA, and/ or to little fluids and food ?

Thanks for answer !

1.Quetiapine, according to the dutch Dr medication Bible.
Off label use as sleep medication is discouraged and disadvised.
If your not psychotic, your dr is wrong. But as Fairnymph already wrote.
>
In Poland quetiapine is so common as sleep meditation. Anyway after Fairnymph argumentation I will talk to doctor to change quetapine.

2.Your MDMA consumption is over the top
> it was and last time in November

3.And isn t Quetiapine also anti-emetic ?
Which would indicate the naussea has a other source.
> I mistranslated what I wanted to said. I have edited post. What I wanted to say is:

The problem with sleeping after ketrel is that after waking up (sleeping enough hours or more then 9hours) I'm still sleepy and it is hard for me to predict how much sleep I will get whether 5 hours or over 10.

4.Too much MDMA, and/ or to little fluids and food ?
> I don't get it. Can you clarify please?

 

[fairnymph]

Quetiapine, according to the dutch Dr medication Bible.
Off label use as sleep medication is discouraged and disadvised.

If your not psychotic, your dr is wrong. But as Fairnymph already wrote.
Your MDMA consumption is over the top. And isn t Quetiapine also anti-emetic ?

Which would indicate the naussea has a other source.
Too much MDMA, and/ or to little fluids and food ?

It’s definitely used for sleep. Maybe not in Holland but in plenty of other countries, including the US and Germany. They like prescribing it because it’s not abusable.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Thanks for answer !

1.Quetiapine, according to the dutch Dr medication Bible.
Off label use as sleep medication is discouraged and disadvised.
If your not psychotic, your dr is wrong. But as Fairnymph already wrote.
>
In Poland quetiapine is so common as sleep meditation. Anyway after Fairnymph argumentation I will talk to doctor to change quetapine.
2.Your MDMA consumption is over the top
> it was and last time in November

3.And isn t Quetiapine also anti-emetic ?
Which would indicate the naussea has a other source.
> I mistranslated what I wanted to said. I have edited post. What I wanted to say is:

The problem with sleeping after ketrel is that after waking up (sleeping enough hours or more then 9hours) I'm still sleepy and it is hard for me to predict how much sleep I will get whether 5 hours or over 10.

4.Too much MDMA, and/ or to little fluids and food ?
> I don't get it. Can you clarify please?

1. In Poland Quetiapine is so common as sleep meditation.
Easy way to avoid prescribing benzo s, but discouraged by their own association.

Its here too prescribed for sleep off label. Despite the negative advise,
based on the side effects being worse then the what they offer.
Some sort of sleep. If the Drugstore for filled my adjustment the text off label for sleep is removed. The reason what you mentioned daytime residual fog.

November last MDMA sorry didn t read that, should be over then.
Any other factors of influence ? Meds/ herb/ psychological state ?

4. One dose and a 1/2 to 2/3 re-dose max, once a month,
or 3 depending your believes.
My thirst and definiete appetite were pressurised,
Only adds to bad come downs like skipping sleep.

3. Anti-emetic, means prevent naussea and vomiting, still your having nauseousness.
Kinda weird, bad interaction ? Something elses ?
Took Quetiapine once for long lasting insomnia did nothing at 25 mg.
Ditched the rest. Midazolam is a joke too when insomniac.

 

[mborowiec512]

1. In Poland Quetiapine is so common as sleep meditation.
Easy way to avoid prescribing benzo s, but discouraged by their own association.

Its here too prescribed for sleep off label. Despite the negative advise,
based on the side effects being worse then the what they offer.
Some sort of sleep. If the Drugstore for filled my adjustment the text off label for sleep is removed. The reason what you mentioned daytime residual fog.

November last MDMA sorry didn t read that, should be over then.
Any other factors of influence ? Meds/ herb/ psychological state ?

4. One dose and a 1/2 to 2/3 re-dose max, once a month,
or 3 depending your believes.
My thirst and definiete appetite were pressurised,
Only adds to bad come downs like skipping sleep.

3. Anti-emetic, means prevent naussea and vomiting, still your having nauseousness.
Kinda weird, bad interaction ? Something elses ?
Took Quetiapine once for long lasting insomnia did nothing at 25 mg.
Ditched the rest. Midazolam is a joke too when insomniac.

What do you mean by "discouraged by their own association."?

November last MDMA sorry didn t read that, should be over then.
Any other factors of influence ? Meds/ herb/ psychological state ?

Surely it's because overdosing MDMA

 

[emkee_reinvented]

What do you mean by "discouraged by their own association."?


Surely it's because overdosing MDMA

Dr s say to dr s don t prescribe Quetiapine off label for sleep.
Not that dr s read that, or if they did 'bells rang or they just ingnore it.
Their own advise. As it is still prescribed off label.

The overdose is most lightly the reason. i agree, especialy naussea.
Sounds fameliar as after effect of overdoing.
But some vomit right on come up.

Edit: of MDMA

 

[mborowiec512]

Why take such high doses of MDMA? Your problems do make sense given you’re prescribed is a serotonergic (among other things) drug. My guess would be that you’ve done some hopefully only short term damage to your serotonin and possibly other receptors which only time can heal. I think you’d be better off switching to another sleeping med that doesn’t impact serotonin receptors, at least temporarily. If you tell your doctor it’s not working and you need high doses which you can’t tolerate, hopefully he will give you something else, at least a z-drug. Have you ever tried going a few days without taking any quetiapine at all? Given its complex mechanisms of action I’m concerned that it might be inhibiting your healing. If you could be on nothing at all for several months while you focus on optimising your health that would likely be ideal. If that’s not an option because of severe insomnia, then I would use a GABAergic drug, as minimally as possible - if possible, no more than every third night, for a few months. But I really need to know more about why you’re taking it to begin with and how bad your insomnia is.

you ever tried going a few days without taking any quetiapine at all?
>
Happened that I haven't taken them and went to sleep but this sleep was really poor


Sorry for responding later but I wanted to answer for all at once.


Gonna talk with doc about changing sleeping pills


I'm taking also vortioxetine 20mg and bupropion 300mg. Started taking them in last month.


I suffer for Treatment Resistant Depression and Treatment Resistant OCD for years.


I'm undergoing TMS treatment (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation). It last 4-6 weeks. I'm after 4 weeks. Next week gonna be fifth.


In biggest polish forum about drugs people advised me a)Tryptophan b)NAC (N-acetylcysteine) and creatine


I haven't tested the substance (MDMA) but I have as good tests as I could get so I should test it. But as far as I know it's good stuff.


I have taken MDMA in order to see if it can help somehow for depression or OCD.

If I used it only once I would be satisfied.

But I have taken 2 dosages more at the same evening when I stopped feeling high. Same story day after and week or two later. When I was stopping feeling high I have been taking more. On each of these two days I have taken 7 dosages. Total time of consumption these days was longer.

Because of depression and tough life situation at that time I've chosen to use it and feel acceptance to how life is and do things instead of looking at wall/oversleeping/intrusive thoughts.

I haven't seen any difference in how I felt after 1 dosage and 7 dosages besides of problems with sleep. No hallucinations, no too excessive sweating, no problems with heart, no so higher heart rate.

I have never lost control over any substance before but I haven't used that many (alcohol, tabacco, weed, hashish, benzos, methylphenidate, Tramadol). So I was surprised that this happened with MDMA and that dosages were so high. Even that I knew that after 150mg in 3 months or something like that it's neurotoxic.


The other problem which I wanted to post in another thread are problems with cognitive functions after this MDMA overuse. Maybe I'm overreacting but for example I feel like loading of informations takes longer, short term memory is worse. Maybe after improving sleep these problem gonna be gone.


Do you have any other questions?
Can telling more about my sleep problems help you understand the problem better? Or I said enough?

 

[emkee_reinvented]

Well the sleep problem s are still there last use November.
So if it was the trigger of the insomnia. Or at least a form of it.
Have or had you ever exp insomnia before taking the MDMA ?

Stress alone can create unforgivably bad insomnia, i learned.
And then as you cascade down Hippo Campus is getting a beating.
exactly where short becomes long term memory.

And lots of stress related disorders are influenced by that to,
so you can get anxiety/ depression/ ... and of course.
Substance abuse.

 

[mborowiec512]

Have or had you ever exp insomnia before taking the MDMA ?

I had but not that big

 

[tetrahedral]

The cognitive problems may be worsened by the larger dose of quetiapine, especially when you're probably already sleep deprived. I've had risperidone and lamotrigine wreak havoc on my information processing abilities. Also, does stuff like melatonin supplementation work for you? Maybe hydroxyzine would be better for sleeping?
There's also this study of haloperidol and MDMA combined that showed insignificant effects just after three days although the sample size was like two dozen people and it was a noticeably smaller dose (1,5mg/kg of body mass), so I'm guessing what you're experiencing is not likely a common effect. (Liechti and Vollenweider, 2000)

 

[mborowiec512]

The cognitive problems may be worsened by the larger dose of quetiapine, especially when you're probably already sleep deprived. I've had risperidone and lamotrigine wreak havoc on my information processing abilities. Also, does stuff like melatonin supplementation work for you? Maybe hydroxyzine would be better for sleeping?
There's also this study of haloperidol and MDMA combined that showed insignificant effects just after three days although the sample size was like two dozen people and it was a noticeably smaller dose (1,5mg/kg of body mass), so I'm guessing what you're experiencing is not likely a common effect. (Liechti and Vollenweider, 2000)

Hey,
Thanks for answer!

Did you recover 100% from mentioned information processing abilities?

I will take into consideration also taking melatonin (haven't tried) and hydroxyzine (need to try in higher dosage).

What did you refer to with this study?

 

[mborowiec512]

The cognitive problems may be worsened by the larger dose of quetiapine, especially when you're probably already sleep deprived. I've had risperidone and lamotrigine wreak havoc on my information processing abilities. Also, does stuff like melatonin supplementation work for you? Maybe hydroxyzine would be better for sleeping?
There's also this study of haloperidol and MDMA combined that showed insignificant effects just after three days although the sample size was like two dozen people and it was a noticeably smaller dose (1,5mg/kg of body mass), so I'm guessing what you're experiencing is not likely a common effect. (Liechti and Vollenweider, 2000)

Well the sleep problem s are still there last use November.
So if it was the trigger of the insomnia. Or at least a form of it.
Have or had you ever exp insomnia before taking the MDMA ?

Stress alone can create unforgivably bad insomnia, i learned.
And then as you cascade down Hippo Campus is getting a beating.
exactly where short becomes long term memory.

And lots of stress related disorders are influenced by that to,
so you can get anxiety/ depression/ ... and of course.
Substance abuse.

Why take such high doses of MDMA? Your problems do make sense given you’re prescribed is a serotonergic (among other things) drug. My guess would be that you’ve done some hopefully only short term damage to your serotonin and possibly other receptors which only time can heal. I think you’d be better off switching to another sleeping med that doesn’t impact serotonin receptors, at least temporarily. If you tell your doctor it’s not working and you need high doses which you can’t tolerate, hopefully he will give you something else, at least a z-drug. Have you ever tried going a few days without taking any quetiapine at all? Given its complex mechanisms of action I’m concerned that it might be inhibiting your healing. If you could be on nothing at all for several months while you focus on optimising your health that would likely be ideal. If that’s not an option because of severe insomnia, then I would use a GABAergic drug, as minimally as possible - if possible, no more than every third night, for a few months. But I really need to know more about why you’re taking it to begin with and how bad your insomnia is.

Happened many times that I've taken up to 4/5x 200mg of quetiapinum per day after last MDMA incident to sedate myself when I was deeply depressed. Haven't done this in weeks.

 

[emkee_reinvented]

@mborowiec512 after reading the side effect s of Quetiapine.
Which also had the warning off label use as sleep-medication,
was discouraged. Due to the side effect s.

It was clear it has more to do with getting a Benzo from a dr.
Its becoming rare, and a real alternative for insomnia ?
If it excist s, wonder if it will be a anti-Histamine/ Gaba-ergic or
something that actually promotes and improves sleep.

Besides Melatonin, or maybe Mulungu does such a substance excist.

ps, is depression a side effect of Quetiapine ?

 

[mborowiec512]

ps, is depression a side effect of Quetiapine

No, it was there before MDMA even

 

[mborowiec512]

I'm going to do Quantitative electroencephalography (Qeeg) because I want to undergo EEG biofeedback to improve my memory anyway. I called the place in which Qeeg can be done and they said that thanks to Qeeg changes made by drugs could also be seen. I will keep you updated after my Qeeg

 

[fairnymph]

The cognitive problems may be worsened by the larger dose of quetiapine, especially when you're probably already sleep deprived. I've had risperidone and lamotrigine wreak havoc on my information processing abilities. Also, does stuff like melatonin supplementation work for you? Maybe hydroxyzine would be better for sleeping?
There's also this study of haloperidol and MDMA combined that showed insignificant effects just after three days although the sample size was like two dozen people and it was a noticeably smaller dose (1,5mg/kg of body mass), so I'm guessing what you're experiencing is not likely a common effect. (Liechti and Vollenweider, 2000)

Full study for those interested: https://maps.org/images/pdf/2000_liechti_3.pdf

 

[fairnymph]

you ever tried going a few days without taking any quetiapine at all?
>
Happened that I haven't taken them and went to sleep but this sleep was really poor


Sorry for responding later but I wanted to answer for all at once.


Gonna talk with doc about changing sleeping pills


I'm taking also vortioxetine 20mg and bupropion 300mg. Started taking them in last month.


I suffer for Treatment Resistant Depression and Treatment Resistant OCD for years.


I'm undergoing TMS treatment (Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation). It last 4-6 weeks. I'm after 4 weeks. Next week gonna be fifth.


In biggest polish forum about drugs people advised me a)Tryptophan b)NAC (N-acetylcysteine) and creatine


I haven't tested the substance (MDMA) but I have as good tests as I could get so I should test it. But as far as I know it's good stuff.


I have taken MDMA in order to see if it can help somehow for depression or OCD.

If I used it only once I would be satisfied.

But I have taken 2 dosages more at the same evening when I stopped feeling high. Same story day after and week or two later. When I was stopping feeling high I have been taking more. On each of these two days I have taken 7 dosages. Total time of consumption these days was longer.

Because of depression and tough life situation at that time I've chosen to use it and feel acceptance to how life is and do things instead of looking at wall/oversleeping/intrusive thoughts.

I haven't seen any difference in how I felt after 1 dosage and 7 dosages besides of problems with sleep. No hallucinations, no too excessive sweating, no problems with heart, no so higher heart rate.

I have never lost control over any substance before but I haven't used that many (alcohol, tabacco, weed, hashish, benzos, methylphenidate, Tramadol). So I was surprised that this happened with MDMA and that dosages were so high. Even that I knew that after 150mg in 3 months or something like that it's neurotoxic.


The other problem which I wanted to post in another thread are problems with cognitive functions after this MDMA overuse. Maybe I'm overreacting but for example I feel like loading of informations takes longer, short term memory is worse. Maybe after improving sleep these problem gonna be gone.


Do you have any other questions?
Can telling more about my sleep problems help you understand the problem better? Or I said enough?

Sorry for the delayed reply - I seem to have missed this. Thanks for reminding me via PM.

You are taking several medications which dampen the effect of MDMA. That’s why you need such high doses and I suspect that is also why you keep redosing, trying to get a full effect. But you will not be able to get a full effect while you’re taking these medications. Most likely you will have to be off the medications (except maybe bupropion) for several months if not longer in order to get a full effect from MDMA.

It’s also never a wise idea to redose MDMA. In order for it work properly and get the full effects, you should wait AT LEAST two weeks in between doses. Personally, I prefer to wait at least a month if not several months. So you are not using the drug in a way that is likely to be helpful.

It is unfortunately quite possible that the cognitive problems you’ve noticed are due to your too-frequent use of such high doses of MDMA. There is substantial research demonstrating the neurotoxicity of MDMA. Even if the dose didn’t seem like it was too much for you and you weren’t experiencing strong effects it could still have been doing substantial damage. The medications you’re on likely suppressed some of the side-effects that one would typically notice when taking harmfully high doses of MDMA.

Treatment resistant depression is a real bitch. You have my utmost sympathy; my late husband struggled with this and I understand how difficult it is. It’s very frustrating how few effective antidepressants we have especially for cases like yours.

Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone can tell you how much damage you’ve done, how much you can recover, or how long that might take. But the human body is amazingly resilient and especially if you’re young, it’s likely that you’ll be able to heal at least some of the damage with time. And what you can’t heal, your brain will learn to adapt and compensate for. Think about blind people who lose their vision, but then develop super acute other senses as a result. This has even been documented in neuroscience: where one part of the brain is damaged, a neighbouring area will start doing the work of that damaged region.

I would advise you to focus on your overall health, not just your depression. Most modern doctors take a very narrow approach towards well-being. They don’t understand how important it is for our entire body to be healthy if we want to be happy. What is your diet like? Do you regularly exercise? Do you have a meaningful work? Do you have close friends and feel valued? These are all essential aspects of true health. I would optimise these aspects as much as you can. You might even see if you can find a holistic doctor who is willing to think out side the box and try some more unusual treatments.

I’d recommend that you consider stopping any med that you can think you can survive without. Of course you should only do this in consultation with your doctor. But I suspect that your entire body would benefit from being on a fewer drugs and re-establishing homeostasis. At the very least I would be wary of taking any drugs that are known to cause cognitive impairment or neurotoxicity as that is a particular concern for you. This is another reason I think a holistic doctor would be helpful as they tend to be better informed regarding drug toxicity.

Regarding your OCD - which I also have struggled with, as it’s part of how my Asperger’s manifests - have you ever tried cognitive behavioural therapy? I was only able to do it when I was properly medicated, as before that my brain was too out of control. But after many different medications, I found one that worked well enough for me to be able to do CBT. I spent several years on that medication doing CBT every day and it permanently cured the vast majority of my symptoms. That was almost 20 years ago and my OCD has been incredibly manageable since. So definitely talk to your doctor about this. I did the CBT on my own with the help of a book so you don’t have to do it with a doctor, I’d you’re willing and able to do the necessary exercises.

 

[mborowiec512]

You are taking several medications which dampen the effect of MDMA

When I was taking MDMA I was only using quetapine quetiapine in relatively low dosage as sleeping pill.

The medications you’re on likely suppressed some of the side-effects that one would typically notice when taking harmfully high doses of MDMA.

As in last answer. I was told by psychiatrists that maybe so many antidepressants didn't work for me because I can have fast metabolism. Maybe it also applies for drugs

my late husband struggled with this

So sorry to hear that.

human body is amazingly resilient and especially if you’re young, it’s likely that you’ll be able to heal at least some of the damage with time

I'm 29

What is your diet like? Do you regularly exercise? Do you have a meaningful work? Do you have close friends and feel valued?

I try to focus on eating healthy. Some days I eat mediterrean diet because there are studies that it helps with depression.

I walk quiet a lot but I plan to add cycling to it. When I'm gonna be after inguinal hernia operation it will be easier to do more sports - Acro yoga, gym.

I don't have a work. Last months I was focused on getting better from depression. Now I try to aim to have meaningful work/activities.

I feel valued. I was valued also when I was depressed but I was unable to feel it even that I have so many episodes and I knew that outside of episodes especially I felt valued. I have close friends.

I’d recommend that you consider stopping any med that you can think you can survive without

Maybe what I'm doing is worse than what you suggest but I'm gonna stick to my antidepressants until I'm gonna feel bad or until longer time of feeling good. This is also I think what would suggest my doctor. I have no year for 15 years without months being taken by depression. It affected a lot my jobs, businesses, relationships.

have you ever tried cognitive behavioural therapy?

Yes, I'm in one now. Under certified psychotherapists

That was almost 20 years ago and my OCD has been incredibly manageable since

Wow, impressive