MDMA as an antidepressant

[BristolRob]

^

An overwhelming amount of literature suggests that low synaptic 5-HT is associated with low mood and increased synatpic 5-HT is associated with positive mood states

What's the reference for the study showing anti-depressants working by lowering 5-HT levels?

Surely if low serotonin caused depression this would be impossible

I'd like to see a reference for this but also I don't think low 5-HT causes depression, I think there can be an infinite number of possible psychological causes of depression and low synaptic 5-HT and low mood/depression is a result of the psychological causes

 

[Ismene]

An overwhelming amount of literature

Is this reliable or pharma-corporation sponsored stuff tho? I mean, there was an overwhelming amount of literature saying Iraq had WMD.

So what do you make of the whole new SSRE class of anti-depressants that enhance serotonin reuptake instead of inhibiting it? How can these work?

 

[rickolasnice]

Well, MDMA usually drains serotonin out of your brain, which is where alot of the depression caused by MDMA comes from. There is a lack of serotonin in your brain. SSRIs cause an increase of serotonin in your brain, so I would think that MDMA would be counterproductive.

I'm a little drunk atm, so I could be hazy on the facts, but I think what I said is correct. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

SSRI's don't cause an increase of serotonin in the brain, they cause an increase of serotonin in the synapse of the brain, meaning there is less in the axons.. as do MDMA. Serotonin needs to be made out of something, and that something is neither SSRI's nor MDMA. If MDMA was very cleverly made into some sort of slow time release pill, then why would MDMA not be an efficient Anti-depressant? The end result should be very similar if the doses and the slow release whatever was exactly right. Say an SSRI increased serotonin in the synapse by 30% through the day.. there is no reason that a low enough dose, very carefully planned slow release MDMA pill would also increase serotonin in the synapse by 30% through the day aswell.

Also, if you mix the use of MDMA as an anti-depressant with a 5-HTP pill, s'all good!

However, I do not think MDMA will be as efficient as SSRI's due to the abuse potential.. Alot of depressed kids will probably take alot knowing it gets them high only to be on month, maybe even year long crashes depending on severity of depression and mdma abuse.

 

[MeDieViL]

An overwhelming amount of literature

Is this reliable or pharma-corporation sponsored stuff tho? I mean, there was an overwhelming amount of literature saying Iraq had WMD.

So what do you make of the whole new SSRE class of anti-depressants that enhance serotonin reuptake instead of inhibiting it? How can these work?

they both enhance dopamine
takes as long as it takes before they kick in by the way

they also both stimulate neurogenesis
takes as long too

 

[MeDieViL]

I read a study that said low doses of MDMA help stimulate serotonin nerve growth and increased number of receptors.

In any sense it was beneficial.

i tough that was with dopamine receptors?

but yeah a low dose could be good for you, but no-one knows that dose so its not possible to achieve

 

[BristolRob]

I've got to be honest, I didn't know about tianeptine. Interesting stuff. Will have to ask around about this one and do some reading. There is certainly a lot more evidence of increasing the concentration of synaptic 5-HT being associated with improved mood that there was evidence for WMDs in Iraq, the original UN weapons inspector Scot Ritter was quick to make that clear

 

[BristolRob]

It might be to do with desensitising presynatpic 5-HT1A receptors as with traditional SSRIs so that the net effect is actually an increase in synaptic 5-HT.. just an idea, will read around a bit

p.s. I'm much more an advocate of psychotherapy than pharmacotherapy but there certainly is an overwhelming amount of literature on the 5-HT - depression link

 

[Ismene]

There is certainly a lot more evidence of increasing the concentration of synaptic 5-HT being associated with improved mood that there was evidence for WMDs in Iraq, the original UN weapons inspector Scot Ritter was quick to make that clear

I believe Hans Blix suggested there may be no link between serotonin and WMD tho.

but there certainly is an overwhelming amount of literature on the 5-HT - depression link

Is the 5-HT link the same as saying "low serotonin causes depression"? The famous quote I read is one researcher saying "There is no more evidence for low serotonin causing depression than there is for the masturbation theory of insanity".

 

[BristolRob]

Didn't Colin Powell suggest that Saddam was using mobile laboratories to synthesise poor quality MDMA in order to disupt the morale of US troops.. something like that

 

[Afterwards Deified]

What SSRI's do, in effect, are not creating serotonin...they basically take your existing serotonin and soak them for longer periods in your neurons...so they don't dissipate as quickly. Ecstasy, on the other hand, DEFINITELY depletes the serotonin levels, which is why people feel like shit afterwards. I know we all know this, but I just wanted to clarify it.

 

[Infinite Jest]

Is the 5-HT link the same as saying "low serotonin causes depression"? The famous quote I read is one researcher saying "There is no more evidence for low serotonin causing depression than there is for the masturbation theory of insanity".

Mate, your famous quote is one researcher, quoted on a personal website. I really think we need some proper, peer-reviewed, double-blind research to make this sort of claim.

[btw, sorry I was a bit harsh earlier, will respond properly later]

 

[Ismene]

What SSRI's do, in effect, are not creating serotonin...they basically take your existing serotonin and soak them for longer periods in your neurons...so they don't dissipate as quickly. Ecstasy, on the other hand, DEFINITELY depletes the serotonin levels, which is why people feel like shit afterwards. I know we all know this, but I just wanted to clarify it.

Yeah but the new SSRE's (that are supposed to be better than SSRI's and have fewer side-effects) apparantly work the other way around by decreasing the amount of serotonin floating around.

 

[Ismene]

Mate, your famous quote is one researcher, quoted on a personal website. I really think we need some proper, peer-reviewed, double-blind research to make this sort of claim.

[btw, sorry I was a bit harsh earlier, will respond properly later]

Well it's a bit more than that. It's a professor of psychological medicine commenting on two other researchers work - it's not really a personal website. And the Senior Lecturer in psychiatry and University College London also agrees with him.

I can't see two people in positions like that lying about it - they'd be thrown out of their jobs for a start.

Commenting on Lacasse and Leo's work,
Professor David Healy of the North
Wales Department of Psychological
Medicine, said: "The serotonin theory
of depression is comparable to the
masturbatory theory of insanity. Both
have been depletion theories, both
have survived in spite of the
evidence, both contain an implicit
message as to what people ought to
do. In the case of these myths, the
key question is whose interests are
being served by a widespread
promulgation of such views rather
than how do we test this theory."

Dr Joanna Moncrieff, Senior Lecturer
in Psychiatry at University College
London, said: "It is high time that
it was stated clearly that the
serotonin imbalance theory of
depression is not supported by the
scientific evidence or by expert
opinion. Through misleading publicity
the pharmaceutical industry has helped
to ensure that most of the general
public is unaware of this."

 

[Infinite Jest]

Well it's a bit more than that. It's a professor of psychological medicine commenting on two other researchers work - it's not really a personal website.

Hmm, I thought I remembered it was posted on a personal website, but I see your point. I'd be more impressed by citations to actual research by Healy or Moncrieff. I had a look through Healy's published work (on Medline) and as far as I can see he hasn't conducted his own trials; but he has done meta-analyses of a lot of other trials. Interestingly, I couldn't see anything there that disputed the serotonin-depression link, although he did present evidence arguing for serious side effects from SSRIs (e.g. increased risk of suicide).

btw, on the SSREs - there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of research at all, at the moment (as far as I could see) - although they do look to have some use in treating anxiety/anxious depression. (A couple of articles said they were better than prozac for this purpose, another one said they were about the same). But SSREs didn't seem so useful in treating the melancholic side of depression. I saw one article which suggested that this could indicate that serotonin and anxiety weren't related. Guess we should keep watching this space.