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MDMA as an antidepressant

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BristolRob

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A friend of mine keeps asking whether MDMA could work as a simple antidepressant, not in the sense that it is used as an adjunct to psychotherapy, but taken regularly in small doses. He asked whether taking a very small dose e.g., 30mg daily might act in the same way as SSRIs. I told him that the mechanism of action of MDMA is very different to that of SSRIs and that tolerance would build up quickly anyway and in the long run the effect on mood would more likely be negative than positive

Anyone else have any other thoughts? Has anyone ever tried such an approach? Regularly self-administering MDMA in an attempt to combat low mood?
 
Well, MDMA usually drains serotonin out of your brain, which is where alot of the depression caused by MDMA comes from. There is a lack of serotonin in your brain. SSRIs cause an increase of serotonin in your brain, so I would think that MDMA would be counterproductive.

I'm a little drunk atm, so I could be hazy on the facts, but I think what I said is correct. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
 
+2 on MDMA being an ineffective antidepressant, and causing more depression problems in the long run.

Though MDMA and SSRIs have the same molecular target, they have different mechanisms of action and pharmacokinetics. SSRIs simply block the serotonin transporter, whereas MDMA actually makes it run in reverse. Therefore, SSRIs do not deplete stores of serotonin in serotonin neurons, whereas MDMA probably does, to some extent. Also, SSRIs stay in your system at active doses for longer than MDMA does.

Amphetamine was once used as an antidepressant, but that practice ended decades ago due to the fact that it wasn't that effective in the long term.
 
Zagenth said:
Well, MDMA usually drains serotonin out of your brain, which is where alot of the depression caused by MDMA comes from. There is a lack of serotonin in your brain. SSRIs cause an increase of serotonin in your brain, so I would think that MDMA would be counterproductive.

I'm a little drunk atm, so I could be hazy on the facts, but I think what I said is correct. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
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Well, that's the theory the pharma-corporations want you to believe so they can sell you SSRI's but there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support it.

I believe E would work as an anti-depressant in very small doses as well as SSRI's. The key thing being if you BELIEVED the E was curing your depression then it probably would.
 
Ismene: SSRI stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's called that because that's what it does. You can't seriously argue against that. It's certainly possible to argue that SSRI's aren't an effective treatment for depression in some cases, or are over-prescribed, or have bad side effects. But you can't dispute that they affect the levels of serotonin in the brain. That's what they do.

Ditto with MDMA. There's a huge number of studies showing MDMA affecting serotonin in one way or another. Just go to Pubmed, do an article title search on MDMA, and you'll find 6 or 7 this year alone.

Please stop posting misinformation unless you can provide a peer-reviewed academic article or textbook to back up your claims.
 
On the original question: I don't think there's any way you could use low doses of MDMA daily.

Firstly, increased use of MDMA builds a tolerance. After you used regularly for a while, you wouldn't get any effect off 30mg.
Secondly, using MDMA for several days usually leads to increasingly negative side effects, including emotional effects. Using it daily, in doses sufficiently high to enhance your mood, would eventually rebound on you and you'd start feeling worse. Not to mention that you'd be potentially experiencing sleep deprivation, your cognitive ability would be lessened, you'd have no appetite, etc.

So no, I don't think it would work. Used occasionally, MDMA will certainly lift your mood temporarily. Used intelligently, I think it can help you gain insights into yourself and your life, and improve the way you feel about things. But I don't think it could be used as a regular anti-depressant. And I don't see why, when we actually have moderately effective anti-depressants that can be used daily, why anyone would use MDMA for this purpose.
 
I read a study that said low doses of MDMA help stimulate serotonin nerve growth and increased number of receptors.

In any sense it was beneficial.
 
Ismene: SSRI stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It's called that because that's what it does. You can't seriously argue against that.

Where did I argue against this? I'm arguing there is no evidence that low serotonin levels cause depression.

There's a huge number of studies showing MDMA affecting serotonin in one way or another.

I've never said MDMA doesn't affect serotonin.

Please stop posting misinformation

I havn't posted any misinformation. Everything I've posted is entirely accurate. You've simply misunderstood the points I've made.
 
For example anti-depressants like Tianeptine actually DECREASE serotonin levels and work just as well as SSRI's that increase serotonin levels.

Where that leaves the "low serotonin causes depression" allegation is for you to decide :\
 
There are always arguements for all anti-depressants out there; much of the time, the exact details on their actions within the brain are still clouded, but the bottom line (at least in the case of the SSRI) is that they work in some people - actually a good amount of people - so that is at least a positive.

As far as MDMA being considered for AD treatment - I do believe perhaps spaced out small dosing would work if done correctly, but daily use may be too much of a load on the brain and the oh-so dreaded backfire may occur. Of course, this would probably be hard to obtain, and at least in my case I would probably end up taking a chunk load of MDMA and then getting really down eventually.
 
Hoss said:
There are always arguements for all anti-depressants out there; much of the time, the exact details on their actions within the brain are still clouded, but the bottom line (at least in the case of the SSRI) is that they work in some people - actually a good amount of people - so that is at least a positive.

.
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I'm not sure they work any better than regular exercise 3 times a week tho. And they can have devastating side effects in many people.
 
^ True on the exercise point; unfortunately some people don't and won't exercise. Even if it's placebo, there is one hell of a market out there for AD's. Personally Lexapro has worked well for me in the past, though I am not currently taking it anymore. I still think it is a sensitive subject overall, though, as is displayed in the respective opinions of this thread.
 
there is no evidence that low serotonin levels cause depression
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But that's misinformation, what about tryptophan depletion studies...? Lower cerebrospinal fluid 5-HIAA in depressed patients.. diminished responses to 5-HT challenges in depressed patients..

Just to edit what I said above: I don't think low 5-HT causes depression but there's no question that it is at least related to it..
 
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Ismene said:
I'm not sure they work any better than regular exercise 3 times a week tho. And they can have devastating side effects in many people.
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I'll never be one to promote medication, but I must say this, what about all of the people that ssri's have the ability to help? I have known people who have not gained anything from ssri's and others who completely swear by them.

Just as SSRI's don't work for everyone, I don't think that regular exercise three times a week would help everyone either.
 
i was thinking about this as well... i was thinking it'd be great if someone could come up with a time-released version of MDMA... it'd be worth SO much money to the pharmaceutical world if it was ever deemed safe enough to be legal
 
BristolRob said:
But that's misinformation, what about tryptophan depletion studies...? Lower cerebrospinal fluid 5-HIAA in depressed patients.. diminished responses to 5-HT challenges in depressed patients..

Just to edit what I said above: I don't think low 5-HT causes depression but there's no question that it is at least related to it..
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So how do you explain anti-depressants working by DECREASING serotonin levels? Surely if low serotonin caused depression this would be impossible?

I'll never be one to promote medication, but I must say this, what about all of the people that ssri's have the ability to help?

True. They work in some people. Whether that's down to what they're doing to serotonin levels is another question tho.
 
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