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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Lowering bupe dose as quick as possible whilst functioning

blah_blah1991

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Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
286
So I have been on 8mg/d-16mg/2d-24mg/3d for about 2 years now (8mg day but sometimes have 16mg and don't dose the next day or 24mg and don't dose for 2 days) this was until the beginning of January (Been clean from H for 7 months)

I decided enough was enough I cannot stay on this forever. Dropped to 4mg/d (no double no triple ever) and felt very shitty for about a week until it started to rebound and I was getting a little better. About 2 weeks later I started to alternate dose 4mg/2mg/4mg/2mg/4mg/2mg/2mg/repeat - I didn't notice to much of a difference except in the mornings before I dosed. This feeling has slightly gone away but when I dose I am fine.

I have recently decided to just do 4mg every 2nd day basically cutting me down to 2mg/daily.

I am finding atm because I have the momentum I am able to keep dropping - I was feeling pretty shitty last night (I started this on Wed) but once I dosed 2mg this morning (Had 4mg Friday having 4mg tomorrow) I have the large burst of energy. I found that when I took 5HTP as well as valium/Xanax if it's really bad (Trying to do these sparingly so I don't loose their therapeutic effects for anxiety).

Is there any vitamins and supplements that would help? What is the best way to reduce or avoid PAWS? Once I get to 2mg every 2nd day would that be a good time to jump off or should I go lower?
 
Sounds like you're doing the right thing. Well done on deciding to get off it.

Most important thing is to be consistent. 4mg every 2nd day is good, when you get down to lower doses you might have to bring it up to daily dosing - but def. stick with bi-daily if you can.

The burst of energy was you getting 'high', and the contrast from minor withdrawal. I'd try and avoid doing this...if you start having 4mg one day, miss a day, 2mg next day etc. it's too difficult to monitor yourself, because the levels in your blood are not stable - eg: you take 4mg, 4mg ,4mg, 0mg, 2mg, 0mg and you feel tired and shitty because the 4mg doses you took several days earlier are still easily keeping withdrawal at bay - then you might try and compensate by going back to 4mg when it's too much (hope that makes some sense :p)

It's like a slow grind. If you do it at the right pace you'll feel kind of crappy a lot of the time, but nothing awful. Having things in place like exercise, or mainly just something to keep you busy is what gets you through the extended periods of worse than usual mood and fatigue. Some supplements couldn't hurt either, multi-vitamin, stuff like velarion root or other calming over the counter herbs, chamomile tea is a must IMO - you'll have some nights where you won't get much sleep and you don't want to rely on benzos for this. A couple cups of chamomile tea and a good supply of books/reading material - if you find yourself not falling asleep get out of bed and read on the couch, sip tea until you start to feel a bit sleepy.
 
It's def not me getting "high" its me being normal, its the level I always adjust to no matter what dose.

The benzos are only for really bad nights e.g. cramps etc + I work full time so I can't be withdrawing to much.
 
It's def not me getting "high" its me being normal, its the level I always adjust to no matter what dose.

The benzos are only for really bad nights e.g. cramps etc + I work full time so I can't be withdrawing to much.

Probably wrong thing to say.

I was feeling pretty shitty last night (I started this on Wed) but once I dosed 2mg this morning (Had 4mg Friday having 4mg tomorrow) I have the large burst of energy.

This sounds like you were in minor withdrawals, then dosed 2mg and had a large burst of energy. You get that with bupe depending on the situation as you probably know.... I love that feeling of energy and I always tended to get it when I had skipped a day or two, and only when the dose is 2mg or less. I didn't mean you got high on purpose, and the 'high' is mild (maybe better to call it enjoyable positive effect). If your tapering off IMO it's best to avoid this effect if you can (which is hard when your adjusting dose)

Your normal probably won't be 'energized' for a while. If you can cope with the periods of time with lower than usual energy you'll be fine.

Good call on the benzos, sounds like you are being responsible. Full time work is going to help heaps, keep you busy and tire you out so you can sleep at night.
 
I think Christ! has said everything better than I could say already, but reading about the 'getting high'/'burst of energy'/'being normal' thing made me reflect on how it's tough to balance and maintain energy fluctuations when you're trying to get off opiates.

When you've been on for a good while you lose the perspective of what your baseline is or was, and it can be a bitch to get yourself back to a state which feels natural and acceptable during the tapering process, without having a blow-out and setting yourself back in your schedule.

Keep up the good work blah blah, and know that when you get back to being free and independent, it's gonna feel fan-fucking-tastic. And by that I just mean that if nothing else, it's going to be wonderful to not be a slave, even if you do have to deal with PAWS flatness and shit.

That's what I'm dreaming of at the moment - being able to move freely without the tight leash around my neck. It's shit not even being able to go out for an evening meal at a mate's place without worrying about having to dose at some point.
 
Keep up the good work blah blah, and know that when you get back to being free and independent, it's gonna feel fan-fucking-tastic. And by that I just mean that if nothing else, it's going to be wonderful to not be a slave, even if you do have to deal with PAWS flatness and shit.
.

Yeah it really is a great feeling after being reliant on something to feel normal for so long. As the PAWS fades your 'normal' will be so much better than when using/on maintenance...motivation increases, you feel more social, you get more enthusiastic about things, sex drive comes back etc. I had been on bupe for many years (I think about 6-7) and had completely forgotten what being opiate free felt like. I've made more 'progress' in my life since coming off than I did in that whole time on opiates...it's strange but looking back those years on opiates seem very hazy, a bit like a dream - hard to figure out how exactly I let it happen and continue for so long, the years went by in the blink of an eye. Something subtle I noticed is that my appreciation for music/books/movies really increased, all kinds of little things like that. Might not be the same for others mind you.
 
Is it really necessary to get off bupe as there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence at the moment that it has a major effect on the health of the user. I have been searching for any negative health effects as I have been on 32 mgs a day for about 7 yrs now and I sometimes wonder what it's doing to me. But then I read how much of a struggle some people have getting off it I just think Fuck It I will just stay on it
 
Needmore: I think it's up to you whether or not it is necessary to get off bupe.

Are you happy with the way things are now? Do you suspect that things could be better if you got off it?

I sure as hello am not a medical professional, but I agree that there doesn't seem to be much evidence pointing to major physical health issues for users of buprenorphine. I would guess that the more immediate issue, as mentioned by Christ! in this thread, is one of stagnation.

Addiction to anything, in my experience, correlates with periods of negative growth.

There's a time for rest and recovery, and there's a time for growth and development: You can decide where you're at.

Good luck:)
 
This piece was published a couple of days ago with some thoughts on this matter - worth a read:
Road to ruin

The puritanical recovery agenda is stigmatising, marginalising and endangering the health of people who use drugs or have a maintenance script, says Dr Eliot Ross Albers

For some time now the drug using community in the UK has been in a state of heightened alert and significant concern triggered by the government’s ‘recovery agenda’. This was first heralded by the launch of a document last year, bearing the logos of eight the major interior ministries including the Department of Health and Home Office, entitled Putting full recovery first – a document that has come to be known as the ‘recovery roadmap’, given that it described itself as a ‘roadmap for building a new treatment system based on recovery.’ Notable too is that the document not only insists on abstinence from substances that are causing the individual problems, but is also explicit in defining recovery as abstinence from all psychoactive substances – including substitute prescriptions.
At a recent conference I asked Duncan Selbie, the head of Public Health England, if he could provide any guarantee that those of us who are in receipt of maintenance prescriptions of opiates would not be arbitrarily forced to come off them (DDN, November 2012, page 12). In spite of insisting that drug services will ‘follow the evidence’, Selbie kept on insisting that: ‘Methadone support is a well-established contribution to recovery. What I would like to have is a broader contribution about how we can help people go beyond that… We will be concerned about rehabilitation, which isn’t the end point, being maintained on methadone.’

This, to say the least was not reassuring, but was entirely in keeping with a dominant theme of the government’s recent rhetoric in which ‘recovery’ has been conflated with full abstinence and in which an ‘urgent end to the current drift of far too many people into indefinite maintenance, which is a replacement of one dependency with another’ has been identified as the key objective.

Indeed, the only indicator of success that drug treatment services will have in the new Public Health Outcomes Framework is the number of people exiting services: ‘ultimately payment will be made for full recovery only.’ They will lose these payments if people relapse and re-enter services within a given time period. In other words, the metric by which the success of future drug treatment services will be measured will be the speed with which they can get people off prescribed medications.

Furthermore, under the new Payment by Results (PbR) system which relates to the ring-fenced treatment budget, boroughs will only receive 100 per cent of their budget if they maintain steady levels of clients exiting services over a 12 month period; failure to do so will result in a budgetary cut. These moves trivialise the complexities of drug dependence and completely overlook the frequently attendant co-morbidities. Such a financial incentive could very well lead to the exclusion of people who are neither ready for, nor seeking, abstinence. This approach furthermore minimises the importance of such proven public health measures as needle and syringe programmes (NSP), HIV treatment and testing, comprehensive hepatitis services, and overdose prevention.

Whatever one’s views on the value of the use of the term ‘recovery’ (I personally do not find it helpful, as I do not see habitual drug use as an illness to be recovered from, but rather a behaviour that people engage in), the insistence that the only satisfactory or successful outcome of an engagement with drug dependence services is abstinence is unrealistic and contrary to the well established evidence enshrined in all internationally accepted guidelines, including the UK’s own clinical guidelines. These documents all recognise that opiate maintenance programmes may need to be continued indefinitely – for as long as the individual concerned finds it helpful. You can search the literature for as long as you like, but nowhere will you find a clinically valid argument suggesting that OST only be provided for a time-limited period.

Since the release of the ‘recovery roadmap’ there has been a slew of further publications, with varying degrees of government backing, many of which have sought in various ways to disavow some of the more extreme positions taken by the former. Notable among such documents is Medications in recovery:

re-orientating drug dependence treatment by John Strang and colleagues, which back-pedals considerably from some of the more blatantly ideological positions taken by the ‘recovery roadmap’. It disavows the notion that OST should be arbitrarily time-limited, instead insisting that services ‘ensure exits from treatment are visible to patients from the minute they walk through the door.’

Because of the crucial indicator embedded in PbR, as discussed above, many will be discouraged from entering into OST programmes. For many people who are experiencing problems with their drug use, knowing that they can access OST has long provided a crucial life raft of stability. This new agenda punches holes in the life raft and seems to be predicated on the notion that one has to jump, or be pushed, off of it as quickly as possible. The risks of doing so are enormous, not least of all in terms of the dangers associated with relapse, notably overdose, destabilisation, and increased vulnerability.

The consistent messaging has been that, as Duncan Selbie put it to me, ‘being maintained on methadone’ should not be seen as the end point. However, for many of us, all that we want, all that we need, is to be secure in the knowledge that our scripts will not be terminated on any grounds other than that of a mutual agreement to do so, and even then only in a carefully managed reduction schedule. Those of us who want and need nothing more from our drug services than respect, dignity and a maintenance script are being told very clearly by this government that our lives are less valid, that our choices are less legitimate, and that unless we knuckle under the cosh of a state-imposed notion of sobriety, abstinence and temperance, that we will have our benefits taken away, our children removed, our housing and employment threatened.

Selbie’s comments reiterated the moral imperative contained in the Putting full recovery first document, which, prefaced by Lord Henley, was guided by the notion that ‘our ultimate goal is to enable individuals to become free from their dependence fully and live meaningful lives.’ The notion that those of us on pharmacotherapies cannot live ‘meaningful lives’ is an insult to the many tens of thousands of us who are on long-term maintenance scripts, who are accessing harm reduction services, and are, at the same time, succeeding professionally and personally. Equally this agenda does nothing to give confidence to those who rely on them that friendly, comprehensive harm reduction services will be available and properly funded.

The agenda is highly irresponsible in its attitude towards needle and syringe programmes, stating that ‘it is self-evident that the best protection against blood-borne viruses is full recovery.’ This statement flies in the face of the well-developed, internationally accepted evidence base that shows that the provision of comprehensive needle and syringe programmes is the most efficacious means of preventing blood-borne virus transmission among injecting drug users. Equally, the same evidence base demonstrates that for many, accessing NSPs is often the route out of illicit drug use and into pharmacotherapy programmes.

The new recovery agenda – with its marches, boat rides, right-wing Christian overtones, Russell Brands and happy-clappy ‘recovery champions’ – silences, stigmatises and further marginalises those of us who are either active drug users or are stable on maintenance scripts. It demeans our choices and denigrates our successes, and it does so on the basis of a disregard for the overwhelming body of evidence that recognises the complexity of drug dependence, and demonstrates the vital need for comprehensive harm reduction services. These services must cater for the drug-using community in all of its diversity, and not through a ‘one size fits all’ puritanical agenda. If there has ever been a time for the drug-using community to come together in defence of harm reduction, it is now.

Dr Eliot Ross Albers is executive director of the International Network of People who Use Drugs (INPUD)

from here
 
Interesting reading, thanks. I must admit I get a bit worried when I see people like Russell Brand saying how everybody needs to be clean of all drugs. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another, and in my case Bupe is the lesser of a lot of evils and has allowed me to gain control of my life and start working again. I tried a lot of ways to go straight over the last 35 years, rehab, abstince, jail etc but they just haven't worked
 
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