Dissociatives Loss of magic / lasting side effects collection

[plumbus-nine]

Anybody having had relevant success in reversing changes from dissociative (over-/ab-)use, be it such which are present during sobriety (e.g. negative thought patterns, irritability, cognitive dysfunction/memory issues etc) or the "loss of magic" when using them? I know this has been discussed before but I like to collect new evidence from time to time, because so far no theory really fits and things are partially contradicting. Might well be that there's still much left for the scientists of course.

Did tolerance breaks work for you, and did the achieved reduction in tolerance last longer than just one trip?
Did you get any adverse effects which lasted for longer than just some days?
Did any concomitant use of other substance significantly alter anything which couldn't be explained just by the effects of that drug(s)? Including tobacco, if relevant.
- Also the other way round, did you notice influences of disso use on tolerance of other drugs?
Did you notice any sensitization (part of the dissociative effects becoming easier to trigger, with low amounts of an agent, while others possibly diminish altogether)?
Did you ever hear voices or alternating thought patterns (conversations with yourself but entirely in thoughts)? Seriously. I got that, but only at some point deep into opioid & disso addiction, and possibly from toxic adulterations which is why I am very interested in figuring out more.
And anything else possibly relevant which might come yo your mind!

 

[telepathetic]

i havent found a way to reset it, 6 months break doesnt seem to make a big difference in tolerance.

 

[ecstacylover]

I think the best protection against the cognitive/memory issues is to build up a large supply of cognitive reserve. This slows the progression of symptoms seen with aging, and at the microscopic and molecular levels, dissociative use can induce similar markers, so I think it's a sensible strategy. I realize most people won't study topology or differential geometry for the sake of cognitive reserve, but at the very least, put yourself in situations where you have to think critically, read as much possible, and utilize your memory. Talk about difficult things with other people, as dissociatives tax your verbal intelligence more than any other system IMO.

Tolerance breaks definitely work, but once you use again, tolerance kicks back in at the level you were at before. Psychedelics and cannabis are probably the best potentiators, but I think cannabis+dissociatives is much easier to overdo at which point it becomes quite uncomfortable. Psychedelics+dissociatives feels much more comfortable, and it adds a layer of structure and content that you often can't reach even with high doses of dissociatives on their own. The more I abused dissociatives, the more I developed an irrational fear of psychedelics, so if that's where you're at, then use small doses and you will realize that the fear is indeed, irrational.

I always found dissociatives lowered tolerance to cannabis more than any other drug class, but I haven't really found anything which lowers tolerance to dissociatives. There's some ideas I have, liken perhaps a sustained regimen of NAC, but I haven't tried if it would work. Plus NAC mutes the effects of dissociatives, so you'd want to make sure it was all out of your system before taking the dissociative.

There's definitely sensitization to the stimulating effects. 3-MeO-PCP comes to mind, as it's considered almost impossible to hole on by most users, yet two of the dissociative-naive people I gave it to had extremely deep hole experiences even on normal dosages. I think other side-effects such as increased body temp and sweating become prominent with tolerance as well.

The hearing voices thing you mentioned I used to have all the time when I was using them heavily. I would never actually hear anything, but it was like seeing my thoughts and internally registering them as voices. It's definitely a strange experience, and I think a similar mechanism must underly "normal" people's experiences of God or the unconscious speaking to them.

Delusions were another thing that I became more susceptible to as well. Numerology type of stuff, or that my mail had anthrax, that I wasn't viewing "real" reality while driving, or that random cars were following and investigating me. I wish I had documented more of it, because there were so many ways it would show up, and looking back, I think it's made me much more guarded against those thought patterns, which I think is a good thing, as self-deception is something I try to avoid.

I don't think these delusions are related to byproducts though, as many of them are symptoms of schizophrenia, and there's a strong link between the mechanisms underlying schizophrenia and the pharmacology of dissociatives. Schizophrenia is more of a developmental disorder, and I don't think dissociatives necessarily increase your risk of developing it, but I think it's good to be aware of the connection. I would suggest reading up on the symptoms of schizophrenia sometime, and you will be shocked to recognize many of the strange phenomena experience experienced on dissociatives.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

Piracetam type nootropics has a inhibitory effect on dissos. So you take piracetam and you get less dissociated. In theory, maybe it could work to upregulate it: take piracetam regularly except the day you take the disso.

It´s all speculative and probably has 0 solid science to confirm it. Could anybody confirm or deny this?

 

[telepathetic]

Piracetam type nootropics has a inhibitory effect on dissos. So you take piracetam and you get less dissociated. In theory, maybe it could work to upregulate it: take piracetam regularly except the day you take the disso.

It´s all speculative and probably has 0 solid science to confirm it. Could anybody confirm or deny this?

I usually take piracetam and other racetams and similar nootropics, could be why I can't hole well - although I have done ketamine 6 months after not using any nootropics and still can't hole. Doesn't seem to upregulate anything.

 

[ecstacylover]

Found this pretty good thread on dissociatives with piracetam.

Piracetam with MXE.. problems?

I heard the effectiveness of piracetam is reduced a lot when on MXE or if you have taken it a day or so before. Any input? contraindications?

www.bluelight.org

Piracetam appears to inhibit the same calcium channels as gabapentenoids, which would inhibit neurotransmitter release on neurons expressing these channels, which would likely mute the effects of a dissociative. It also can bind to lipid head groups giving rise to local regions of positive membrane curvature, which would affect processes such as neurotransmitter release and the embedding of proteins within the membrane. That would be a pretty broad effect, and I wander if that underlies the nootropic effects seen with long-term use.

Also, if you drink coffee daily you should definitely try cutting out caffeine a couple days before using any dissociatives.

You can also try enzyme inhibitors (e.g. grapefruit juice) but having tried this a couple years ago with MXE, I would not recommend it. It did intensify the experience, but even more it intensified the negative side effects.

 

[December Flower]

I hate how terms like "science", "exploring" or "theory", "experiment" are thrown around about drug use.

You guys use drugs recreationally, that's it.
You're not scientists about to discover the secrets of life, just fucking cut it out already. If anything could be learned through LSD ppl would have done so, a thousand years ago. Same goes for dissos, empathogens, opioids. Many are medicines, and their scientific value has already been discovered. Nobody needs you to "test it out further", you just want to take drugs.

I'm sorry for being so rude, but I see this pattern all the time. Some fool thinks themself a scientist and starts fucking around with drugs of all kinds to "experience" and "experiment", yay science!
Skip forward a bunch of years and their brain is potato salad. That's not science, that's just being a dreaming fool.

The only advice I can give you is to stop. Only that can ever return you to normal.

 

[Viraldrome]

You guys use drugs recreationally, that's it.
You're not scientists about to discover the secrets of life, just fucking cut it out already. If anything could be learned through LSD ppl would have done so, a thousand years ago. Same goes for dissos, empathogens, opioids. Many are medicines, and their scientific value has already been discovered. Nobody needs you to "test it out further", you just want to take drugs.

There hasn't been any scientific investigation into LSD since 1967. The explosion of new research into mushrooms kinda of contradicts your theory we know it all already. As for drugs like MXE there is probably no research whatsoever into tolerance. A crowd sourced project from users on a site like this is literally the only way to find out if its just you, or if other people are going thru the same thing. It isn't a replacement for rigorous academic study, but they are either not interested, or held back by the law, or both. Bluelight is really at the forefront of recreational drug knowledge, if problems with a new drug arise you are going to find out about it in a forum long before medical science is aware of it.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

lol LSD is now been fast tracked in many countries for research to treat ADHD, depression addiction and many other mental health issues. LSD was proven in the 1950s and 1960s to cure schizopherina aswell but the main stream media will sell u a lie and tell you it gives you shcizopherina i personally know of people who cured themselves of shciopherzina on lsd. There is so much more to know about these drugs. I personally know how to hack LSD to heal any physical cut i have within 12 hours.

 

[December Flower]

lol LSD is now been fast tracked in many countries for research to treat ADHD, depression addiction and many other mental health issues. LSD was proven in the 1950s and 1960s to cure schizopherina aswell but the main stream media will sell u a lie and tell you it gives you shcizopherina i personally know of people who cured themselves of shciopherzina on lsd. There is so much more to know about these drugs. I personally know how to hack LSD to heal any physical cut i have within 12 hours.

did I somehow not say that they're medicines and not free tickets to space jesus?

 

[Deleted member 521610]

they are neutral chemicals that can be used in anyway that person sees fit. Its not all about healing some of us want to fucking go deeper and further than any known human to ever live

 

[ecstacylover]

You're not scientists about to discover the secrets of life, just fucking cut it out already. If anything could be learned through LSD ppl would have done so, a thousand years ago.

Yeah, back when phrenology and humorism were the orders of the day, we probably would've learned a ton, and would've been all bullshit.

Same goes for dissos, empathogens, opioids. Many are medicines, and their scientific value has already been discovered.

If you think the full implications of anything (as it pertains to a system as complex as the brain) are fully understood at this point in time, then your conception of the brain must be pitifully impoverished.

While I don't believe psychoactive substances give us information about the world external to the brain (or at the very least, I'm quite skeptical of that possibility), I do think they are going to be incredibly important for gaining a foothold on the problem of consciousness and helping us better understand the structure of the mind.

Not to mention the more pragmatic point of view, which is that these substances can enrich the human experience and fill the spiritual void of modern society. And even if the experiences are temporary, the perspectives gained are less temporary.

Or the even more pragmatic view, that they can alter biophysical properties of neurons to improve human cognition or awareness. Sure, most drugs or drug combinations may reduce brain function, but there's plenty still which could do the opposite. Given that evolution lacked access to so many organic molecules, there's a statistically good bet that we haven't yet indexed many of the highest "forms" of human consciousness (whatever that means, right?).

Skip forward a bunch of years and their brain is potato salad.

Second law of thermodynamics gonna do that for you regardless, bruh.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

Imo dissos are a very dangerous a short ketamine binge left me with unshakable Deja vu that fucked me up.

 

[December Flower]

Yeah, back when phrenology and humorism were the orders of the day, we probably would've learned a ton, and would've been all bullshit.


If you think the full implications of anything (as it pertains to a system as complex as the brain) are fully understood at this point in time, then your conception of the brain must be pitifully impoverished.

While I don't believe psychoactive substances give us information about the world external to the brain (or at the very least, I'm quite skeptical of that possibility), I do think they are going to be incredibly important for gaining a foothold on the problem of consciousness and helping us better understand the structure of the mind.

Not to mention the more pragmatic point of view, which is that these substances can enrich the human experience and fill the spiritual void of modern society. And even if the experiences are temporary, the perspectives gained are less temporary.

Or the even more pragmatic view, that they can alter biophysical properties of neurons to improve human cognition or awareness. Sure, most drugs or drug combinations may reduce brain function, but there's plenty still which could do the opposite. Given that evolution lacked access to so many organic molecules, there's a statistically good bet that we haven't yet indexed many of the highest "forms" of human consciousness (whatever that means, right?).


Second law of thermodynamics gonna do that for you regardless, bruh.

Somehow everyone seems to misunderstand what I'm saying.

So I'm trying again: There's a lot of people, who think it makes them scientists if they take a bunch of drugs. They're not. And they're not going to discover something because their minds are so sharp. How could you, when you're the one taking the drugs? Also I never said there's nothing to discover. I said some self-proclaimed uber-gurus aren't going to find it out by taking drugs. You're not going to find stuff out by taking the drugs, you find out stuff by administering the drugs carefully to someone else and watching the process. See the difference? If you take the drugs yourself you can NEVER trust your findings, and that makes every little "process" you made complete and utter bullshit.

I have said that they are medicines, maybe I should have put it in bold, because as is observable: it's very easy to misunderstand someone if you half-ass the reading process. I think scientists should work further in discovering more positive symptoms, but not the populus. A single person is always too prone to get out of hand, ergo: take too much, and end up with potato salad brain.

If one has anxiety, or autism, depression, ADHD, agoraphobia; go for it! Try to cure yourself with psychotropes, but that doesn't make you a fucking scientist. It makes you the crazy guy who pulls his own teeth because he's too scared to see the dentist. I would only go this way if I can find a detailled sheet telling me when to take how much of which substance, or I had a therapist/doctor to help me through it. But this taking drugs for fun and then claiming it's all super serious science stuff is just redonculous

Edit: And I'm not even saying stop all recreational use of drugs, just stop calling yourselves "scientists" or "explorers" or "psychonauts" and stop calling it anything but recreational use. Other addicts own up to their addiction, psychotrope users will babble on about experiments and "scientific use" instead. What the fuck even is that? There's nothing smart about taking drugs.

 

[blistersinthedark]

Re-read the OP. No one is calling themselves a scientist in this thread. I sort of get what you mean, but the people you describe are much more prevalent on Reddit nowadays.

 

[December Flower]

Re-read the OP. No one is calling themselves a scientist in this thread. I sort of get what you mean, but the people you describe are much more prevalent on Reddit nowadays.

Sounds like they're discussing String theory vs LQG

One person can't even spell "gabapentinoid", but posts shitloads of information on the internet that might be entirely fucking wrong judging from that spelling. You're saying there's no drug scientists here? I think there's too many, and they all think they know everything, we had someone here tell a pregnant heroin addict to take loperamide. The fuck. Honestly. Without having A SINGLE SHRED of data, just tells her to take something that's possibly deadly for the child.

I get it, it's super fun to sound smart and educated, but in 90% of the cases, you're just going to think you're smart and educated, but you actually just swiped some numbers from the internet. When you tell someone of your great knowledge, you put their life in your hands. Is it really worth that risk just to sound smart? We may all be letters on a screen to everyone else, but behind those letters are real people, with real problems, who might or might not be endangered by what you tell them. I just don't think it's worth this just to sound like the uber drug guru 2.0.

"Talk to a doctor" or "STOP" is the only reasonable answer in 90% of the cases here.

 

[ecstacylover]

Why are you so insecure about people discussing drugs in a forum for discussing drugs..?

Nobody here is claiming to be a scientist, and I'm sure recreation is the number one priority in many cases, but provided it is done responsibly, I still fail to see the issue with that.

People taking personal responsibility and asking for sources should be a given, if they can't do that then they shouldn't be using drugs to begin with.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

He has a point that stopping dissos is indeed the only right answer in this case especially when worried about all these side effects that won't go away. But I guess people think that's a given. Sometimes as Bluelighters our instincts and priorities may be off. Helpful info either way.

 

[December Flower]

Thank you

Yes, we're talking about a human being, and he shouldn't find a way to "find the magic" again, he should really really stop. That would be the best thing for him. I find the self-proclaimed explorer of the mind to be a dangerous path. (change he and him for her or shklim or whatever you prefer)

 

[plumbus-nine]

I have been abstinent of any substances besides prescribed meds for more than a year now. Maybe I'll never take higher doses of dissos again, if there's no way to get around the problems, that's the fucking thing I am asking. Yes, I was addicted to dissos at some point as were others too, that's life and what's wrong about collecting some data? I have seen more than one, more than four doctors and they just confirmed my impression that they aren't up to date, and that they don't care about that. I have chronic mental health 'issues' which don't respond to the usual stuff, that's how and why I started to educate myself a bit and also why I turned into a guinea pig. My sober state would drive me to suicide, point. I need chemical distraction to stay alive. I spent and lost years with psychiatry. Was on drug rehab too just to find out that I'm very different from the average client there. And so on. @December Flower, honestly please stop derailing and leave this thread alone. I fully agree with you, taking drugs isn't exactly science, but this doesn't make me implicably non-responsable.

@ecstasylover thanks for your input, and for confirming me that the voice phenomenon isn't necessarily toxic but just a 'feature' of the dissoverse - I need to read up more about schizophrenia, know that NMDA antagonists are said to mimic or even lead to it, there are even animal models but they are mostly using PCP which seems to have additional toxicity which other dissos, specially the serotonergic ones like MXE (5ht2a activity protects against NMDAR antagonism mediated toxicity in rats) don't necessarily share. Still, there's a paper about visible changes on MRI in ketamine addicts with more than 0.5g/d for 6 months and more (note that most candidats were poly drug users) but we have nothing about if, to which degree, and how fast/slow these changes might heal upon abstinence, if and to which degree other agents could protect / if the findings in rats are applicable to humans, and so forth. The brain is very plastic, it needs quite a bit to turn it into potato salad but believing in that your brain is such will eventually lead to that... (don't wanna say that taking RCs is wise at all, many of them are quite worrying but also more or less easily spotable with some common sense, yet the community is indeed all we have, say thanks to Nixon)

I'll write more detailed later to your posting @ecstasylover.

Edit: Yes, I did write scientists, and by that I meant these people who publish the Pubmed etc papers, based on which we all form our theories, probably. I'm not a scientist and don't call myself such, but I want and try to get as much as information about something which isn't really documented yet, and with a bit of luck I'll be a student of either neurosciences or pharmacology next year...