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Opioids Long-term damage from opioids

red22

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 23, 2009
Messages
1,200
Immediate Effects of Opioids on Mood Receptors

- Opioids bind to mu-opioid receptors in the brain, leading to the release of dopamine in the reward pathway. This creates euphoria and relief from pain or distress.

- With prolonged use, the brain adapts by reducing the sensitivity and/or number of opioid receptors (downregulation) and altering dopamine signaling. This contributes to tolerance (needing more of the drug for the same effect) and dependence (experiencing withdrawal symptoms without the drug).


Short-Term Recovery After Opioid Use

- After discontinuing opioids, individuals experience withdrawal symptoms, which include both physical and psychological distress (e.g., anxiety, depression, irritability). These symptoms are part of acute withdrawal and typically resolve within a few days to weeks.

- However, even after the acute withdrawal phase, people may experience protracted withdrawal symptoms (lasting weeks to months), such as mood disturbances, anhedonia (inability to feel pleasure), and dysphoria (intense dissatisfaction). This period is sometimes referred to as post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS).


Long-Term Effects on Mood and Recovery

- Neuroplasticity: Chronic opioid use can induce long-lasting changes in brain structure and function, particularly in areas like the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, and reward circuits. These changes can lead to long-term difficulties in mood regulation, stress response, and decision-making.

- Full Recovery Potential: While many people can recover from the mood-related effects of opioid use over time, recovery is not always complete or rapid. Studies suggest:

- Partial Reversal: The brain's opioid receptors and dopamine system show some degree of plasticity and recovery with sustained abstinence, but the process can take months or even years, depending on the duration and intensity of use.

- Lasting Vulnerability: Some individuals may experience lingering deficits in mood regulation, anhedonia, or a heightened risk of relapse due to lasting changes in the brain's reward and stress systems.

Research Evidence

- Animal Studies: Long-term opioid exposure leads to persistent changes in receptor density, dopamine signaling, and stress responses, even after prolonged abstinence.

- Human Studies: Brain imaging studies in former opioid users show altered activity in the reward and stress circuits, which may take over a year to normalize. However, the extent of recovery varies widely among individuals.

- Clinical Observations: Some people fully recover and regain normal mood regulation, while others continue to experience depression or anxiety, which might require therapeutic interventions.


Factors Affecting Recovery

1. Duration and Intensity of Use: Longer and heavier opioid use is associated with greater neurochemical and structural changes.

2. Individual Differences: Genetics, pre-existing mental health conditions, and environmental factors play a role in recovery outcomes.

3. Supportive Interventions: Evidence-based treatments, such as medication-assisted therapy (e.g., buprenorphine, methadone), psychotherapy, and lifestyle modifications, can improve recovery and mood stabilization.


Conclusion

While most individuals recover significantly from the mood-related receptor changes caused by opioid use, the timeline and degree of recovery depend on many factors. In some cases, there may be lasting impacts on the brain's reward and stress systems, but with the right interventions and sustained abstinence, full or near-full recovery is possible for many people.

(ChatGPT)


reddit post:

So I’m often reassured that opioids cannot cause neuronal death with the exception of an overdose (hypoxia). Googling opioid neurotoxicity usually brings up sources that seem to talk about how opioids can impair cognition but don’t seem to actually be talking about brain damage but rather a temporary disregulation (as you would expect with any recreational drug)

Recently I’ve come across some studies that do discuss opioids going further than just disregulation, possibly causing excitotoxicity. Below are some quotes I’ve extracted (they get more vague and less relevant as they go on but probably still worth including)

“Exogenous opioids alter the homeostatic environment of the CNS by inducing immunological signaling events that limit the analgesic properties of opioids (12). Immunological events such as the release of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines via activation of toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) and mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) are linked to opioid tolerance, which is known as opioid-induced hyperalgesia (OIH). Astrocytes, under prolonged stress from persistent opioid use, lose their ability to adequately remove excess glutamate from neuronal synapses (13). When combined with inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), the resulting imbalance leads to excitotoxity and in prolonged cases, degradation of neurons (14). Such events increase pain sensitivity and reduce the neuroprotective capacity of glial cells, leaving the CNS vulnerable to acute extracellular changes with the potential to alter physiological and behavioral components in individuals with opioid use disorder.”

“The process by which opioids induce excitotoxicity via modulation of astrocytes has two components: inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)-mediated neurotransmission and downregulation of glutamate transporters. “

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772392522000220

“The phenomenon is probably associated with the downregulation of opioid receptors and excessive activation of NMDA, N-metyl-D-aspartate receptors. “

https://journals.viamedica.pl/palliative_medicine_in_practice/article/download/PMPI.2021.0013/64327

“Psychostimulants, alcohol, and opioids all decrease expression of GLT-1, an astrocyte-specific glutamate transporter that clears glutamate from the synapse (Smith et al., 2015).”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ejn.14163

It seems to me that the consensus from the general drug community that opioids don’t cause neuronal degradation/death except in hypoxic scenarios is wrong and as someone that has been worried about causing any further neurotoxicity/excitotoxicity with their drug use this is quite alarming as I considered opioids to be “safe” in this regard so long as I’m careful with my dose. A great many people who abuse opioids also regularly abuse benzodiazepines leading to further downregulation of GABA, and some use stimulants regularly or in combination with opioids, further compounding excitotoxicity.

Do opioids cause neuronal degradation/death via excitotoxicity? CantinaMan, Aug 12, 2023, reddit


Identification and management of opioid-induced neurotoxicity in older adults. Godwin, B., Frank, C., Molnar, F., Dyks, D., & Akter, R. (2022). Canadian family physician Medecin de famille canadien, 68(4), 269–270. DOI: 10.46747/cfp.6804269


This book is about fentanyl: The Memory Thief: The Secrets Behind How We Remember—A Medical Mystery. Lauren Aguirre, 2021, Pegasus Books, ISBN: 9781643136523

Sometimes, it’s not the discovery that’s hard – it’s convincing others that you’re right. The Memory Thief chronicles an investigation into a rare and devastating amnesia first identified in a cluster of fentanyl overdose survivors. When a handful of doctors embark on a quest to find out exactly what happened to these marginalized victims, they encounter indifference and skepticism from the medical establishment.

But after many blind alleys and occasional strokes of good luck, they go on to prove that opioids can damage the hippocampus, a tiny brain region responsible for forming new memories. This discovery may have implications for millions of people around the world.

Through the prism of this fascinating story, Aguirre recounts the obstacles researchers so often confront when new ideas bump up against conventional wisdom. She explains the elegant tricks scientists use to tease out the fundamental mechanisms of memory. And finally, she reveals why researchers now believe that a treatment for Alzheimer’s is within reach.


FINALIST FOR THE 2022 PEN/E.O. WILSON LITERARY SCIENCE WRITING AWARD

"Aguirre writes clearly, concisely, and often cinematically. The book succeeds in providing an accessible yet substantive look at memory science and offering glimpses of the often-challenging process of biomedical investigation.”— Science


Certainly LSD, which was for a time considered in the Western world,
above all in the United States, to be the number-one inebriant, has
relinquished this leading role to other inebriants such as hashish and the habituating, even physically destructive drugs like heroin and amphetamine. The last-mentioned drugs represent an alarming sociological and public health problem today.


Albert Hofmann. LSD: My Problem Child (1979, 1980), ISBN: 9780070293250. 5. From Remedy to Inebriant / Sandoz Stops LSD Distribution
 
Last edited:
Yeah, I've always just kind of taken others words for opioids not being long term handicapping as truth. Never did my own research and feel pretty dumb now, lol.
 
I'm curious about what sort of dose levels of opiates and frequency of dosage it takes to trigger these changes, including OIH.
I also wonder how kratom fits into the picture, as it is described as a an atypical opiate, a partial agonist. I take that to mean that there is an upper limit to the opiate effect it can have(?). However, at the same time, it contains multiple alkaloids which have different effects which can perhaps make it's neurological effects more complex?
I keep my dosage to both opiates and Kratom quite low ( for example,2.5 g for kratom and 2.5 mg for oxycodone or hydrocodone), and don't take it more than a couple times a week, often less often. I'm sure that sounds like a very low dose but it's always enough to have a very mild pleasant effect on me with no tolerance increase. I also know from experience that upping my dose or frequency leads to less desirable results for me.
I am just wondering if my low but regular use pattens can be a problem for me, and does have Kratom have it's own unique negative effects.
Thanks for any advice and knowledge
 

It even seems like moderate, non-tolerance use is healthy for you.


I used a variety of opiates for several years to stave off depression and anxiety, with no ill effects to speak of. These mainly included pods, oxycodone, and hydrocodone. No withdrawls ever. Only a few short instances of increased tolerance (needing 4 pods instead of two to achieve the desired result). The key was absolutely strict moderation. Opiates are mostly benign, but only so long as increasing/ excessive doses are not used and habituation is categorically avoided. I set up a maximum use schedule of twice per week. No more than 10mg of hydro/oxycodone (usually I'd just take 5mg). The anecdotal research I had done suggested that this would be an indefinitely sustainable opiate regime, and for me that turned out to be the case. There are a number of pitfalls that must be avoided. You will have the voice in your head which tries to justify increasing either your frequency of use or the dose involved, and you must be able to recognize this and ignore it. I don't think many people have the sort of discipline and willpower to maintain this though; most find ever increasing opiate consumption too tempting to avoid, and that is the line which cannot be crossed if opiates are to remain an ally and not an enemy. For me, I recognized that in using opiates, the choice was between using them in a very structured manner or eventually being much worse off and not being able to use them at all. It was a very logical choice for me. I cannot emphasize enough though: You have to deeply respect the terms of the relationship with these drugs, or you will get burned.

Eventually I lost interest in opiates. Their effect on me changed. The thought of them does not excite me in the least. Exercising, accomplishing tangible goals, and being social are the real drivers of endogenous satisfaction. Opiates can be used as a stepping stone to these things (I found they increased my motivation and made me more outgoing), but in the end you have to make the push yourself.

*I should add that I found the therapeutic effects of opiates lasted much longer than the main effects. One dose would leave me in a positive headspace for several days, generally. I feel like what opiates allowed me to do was to learn to think and act in ways that eventually helped me overcome the issues I was dealing with. MDMA is useful in this regard as well, but the harsh and protracted crash makes it difficult to integrate those ways of thinking and acting while the experience is still fresh. Plus, it's certainly not something that should be partaken of on the sort of frequency basis that opiates can be. That ties into another benefit of therapeutic opiate use: it leaves you almost entirely free of impairment.
Grok, 02/27/11, Re: Opiates for depression

 
Immediate Effects of Opioids on Mood Receptors

- Opioids bind to mu-opioid receptors in the brain, leading to the release of dopamine in the reward pathway. This creates euphoria and relief from pain or distress.

- With prolonged use, the brain adapts by reducing the sensitivity and/or number of opioid receptors (downregulation) and altering dopamine signaling. This contributes to tolerance (needing more of the drug for the same effect) and dependence (experiencing withdrawal symptoms without the drug).


Short-Term Recovery After Opioid Use

- After discontinuing opioids, individuals experience withdrawal symptoms, which include both physical and psychological distress (e.g., anxiety, depression, irritability). These symptoms are part of acute withdrawal and typically resolve within a few days to weeks.

- However, even after the acute withdrawal phase, people may experience protracted withdrawal symptoms (lasting weeks to months), such as mood disturbances, anhedonia (inability to feel pleasure), and dysphoria (intense dissatisfaction). This period is sometimes referred to as post-acute withdrawal syndrome (PAWS).


Long-Term Effects on Mood and Recovery

- Neuroplasticity: Chronic opioid use can induce long-lasting changes in brain structure and function, particularly in areas like the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, and reward circuits. These changes can lead to long-term difficulties in mood regulation, stress response, and decision-making.

- Full Recovery Potential: While many people can recover from the mood-related effects of opioid use over time, recovery is not always complete or rapid. Studies suggest:

- Partial Reversal: The brain's opioid receptors and dopamine system show some degree of plasticity and recovery with sustained abstinence, but the process can take months or even years, depending on the duration and intensity of use.

- Lasting Vulnerability: Some individuals may experience lingering deficits in mood regulation, anhedonia, or a heightened risk of relapse due to lasting changes in the brain's reward and stress systems.

Research Evidence

- Animal Studies: Long-term opioid exposure leads to persistent changes in receptor density, dopamine signaling, and stress responses, even after prolonged abstinence.

- Human Studies: Brain imaging studies in former opioid users show altered activity in the reward and stress circuits, which may take over a year to normalize. However, the extent of recovery varies widely among individuals.

- Clinical Observations: Some people fully recover and regain normal mood regulation, while others continue to experience depression or anxiety, which might require therapeutic interventions.


Factors Affecting Recovery

1. Duration and Intensity of Use: Longer and heavier opioid use is associated with greater neurochemical and structural changes.

2. Individual Differences: Genetics, pre-existing mental health conditions, and environmental factors play a role in recovery outcomes.

3. Supportive Interventions: Evidence-based treatments, such as medication-assisted therapy (e.g., buprenorphine, methadone), psychotherapy, and lifestyle modifications, can improve recovery and mood stabilization.


Conclusion

While most individuals recover significantly from the mood-related receptor changes caused by opioid use, the timeline and degree of recovery depend on many factors. In some cases, there may be lasting impacts on the brain's reward and stress systems, but with the right interventions and sustained abstinence, full or near-full recovery is possible for many people.

(ChatGPT)


reddit post:

So I’m often reassured that opioids cannot cause neuronal death with the exception of an overdose (hypoxia). Googling opioid neurotoxicity usually brings up sources that seem to talk about how opioids can impair cognition but don’t seem to actually be talking about brain damage but rather a temporary disregulation (as you would expect with any recreational drug)

Recently I’ve come across some studies that do discuss opioids going further than just disregulation, possibly causing excitotoxicity. Below are some quotes I’ve extracted (they get more vague and less relevant as they go on but probably still worth including)

“Exogenous opioids alter the homeostatic environment of the CNS by inducing immunological signaling events that limit the analgesic properties of opioids (12). Immunological events such as the release of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines via activation of toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4) and mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) are linked to opioid tolerance, which is known as opioid-induced hyperalgesia (OIH). Astrocytes, under prolonged stress from persistent opioid use, lose their ability to adequately remove excess glutamate from neuronal synapses (13). When combined with inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), the resulting imbalance leads to excitotoxity and in prolonged cases, degradation of neurons (14). Such events increase pain sensitivity and reduce the neuroprotective capacity of glial cells, leaving the CNS vulnerable to acute extracellular changes with the potential to alter physiological and behavioral components in individuals with opioid use disorder.”

“The process by which opioids induce excitotoxicity via modulation of astrocytes has two components: inhibition of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)-mediated neurotransmission and downregulation of glutamate transporters. “

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772392522000220

“The phenomenon is probably associated with the downregulation of opioid receptors and excessive activation of NMDA, N-metyl-D-aspartate receptors. “

https://journals.viamedica.pl/palliative_medicine_in_practice/article/download/PMPI.2021.0013/64327

“Psychostimulants, alcohol, and opioids all decrease expression of GLT-1, an astrocyte-specific glutamate transporter that clears glutamate from the synapse (Smith et al., 2015).”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ejn.14163

It seems to me that the consensus from the general drug community that opioids don’t cause neuronal degradation/death except in hypoxic scenarios is wrong and as someone that has been worried about causing any further neurotoxicity/excitotoxicity with their drug use this is quite alarming as I considered opioids to be “safe” in this regard so long as I’m careful with my dose. A great many people who abuse opioids also regularly abuse benzodiazepines leading to further downregulation of GABA, and some use stimulants regularly or in combination with opioids, further compounding excitotoxicity.

Do opioids cause neuronal degradation/death via excitotoxicity? CantinaMan, Aug 12, 2023, reddit


Identification and management of opioid-induced neurotoxicity in older adults. Godwin, B., Frank, C., Molnar, F., Dyks, D., & Akter, R. (2022). Canadian family physician Medecin de famille canadien, 68(4), 269–270. DOI: 10.46747/cfp.6804269


This book is about fentanyl: The Memory Thief: The Secrets Behind How We Remember—A Medical Mystery. Lauren Aguirre, 2021, Pegasus Books, ISBN: 9781643136523

Sometimes, it’s not the discovery that’s hard – it’s convincing others that you’re right. The Memory Thief chronicles an investigation into a rare and devastating amnesia first identified in a cluster of fentanyl overdose survivors. When a handful of doctors embark on a quest to find out exactly what happened to these marginalized victims, they encounter indifference and skepticism from the medical establishment.

But after many blind alleys and occasional strokes of good luck, they go on to prove that opioids can damage the hippocampus, a tiny brain region responsible for forming new memories. This discovery may have implications for millions of people around the world.

Through the prism of this fascinating story, Aguirre recounts the obstacles researchers so often confront when new ideas bump up against conventional wisdom. She explains the elegant tricks scientists use to tease out the fundamental mechanisms of memory. And finally, she reveals why researchers now believe that a treatment for Alzheimer’s is within reach.


FINALIST FOR THE 2022 PEN/E.O. WILSON LITERARY SCIENCE WRITING AWARD

"Aguirre writes clearly, concisely, and often cinematically. The book succeeds in providing an accessible yet substantive look at memory science and offering glimpses of the often-challenging process of biomedical investigation.”— Science


Certainly LSD, which was for a time considered in the Western world,
above all in the United States, to be the number-one inebriant, has
relinquished this leading role to other inebriants such as hashish and the habituating, even physically destructive drugs like heroin and amphetamine. The last-mentioned drugs represent an alarming sociological and public health problem today.


Albert Hofmann. LSD: My Problem Child (1979, 1980), ISBN: 9780070293250. 5. From Remedy to Inebriant / Sandoz Stops LSD Distribution
Source ChatGPT? You must be kidding. 😂
 
It has already been mentioned but it’s mainly your Lifestyle that prevents Full opioid potential for you. Without some mechanistic help you wont get far.
 
Some wonder if the heroin is the reason why the Rolling Stones are still jamming today, although they have been "clean"(I reckon Keith still gets down every once in a blue moon, wouldn't be surprised at least)..shit I didn't even know Tom Petty or Prince even fucked with opiates til they passed, RIP.

Just saying I've heard of opiates/opioids keeping you a bit healthy as long as you are in good balance mentally and physically and handle dependence well. But I'm sure it does its own damages, not writing that off.
 
Well of course all drugs are going to change the reward systems & shit in your brain.


This study shows 15 years of daily heroin use resulted in zero serious adverse health effects -

"No serious heroin-related medical complication occurred during the 15-year window of observation among inmates with heroin-assisted treatment. Their work performance was comparable to that of the reference group."



So I think I'd rather be a long term junkie than a long term alcoholic or meth user. The latter two being far more damaging, not just on your brain but on your organs & physical body. Opioids are rarely toxic to your organs (with some exceptions like propoxyphene's metabolite being cardiotoxic, etc..)


I've been on opioids for 17 years & I have no measurable damage done to me as far as I know.

I also did meth off & on for 20 years & was an alcoholic at times too. Yet some how I made it out without much damage.
 
I too believed of opioids to have no negative long-term impact but I think this was wrong information. I was on 600mg/d of morphine for ~2 years (maintenance as a way to get off illegal drugs) and it definitely did ... something ... to me. First off, it wasn't the magic bullet I hoped for (because people praise heroin as kind of an ultimate euphoria - I think this title belongs to empathogens now) but instead did it only offer me euphoria when I pushed the dosage. Staying on the same dosage, independent of how high that was, always faded into depression after a couple of days. Pushing the dosage led to stimulation, mood lift (kind of feeling emotionally invincible), and anxiolysis for a couple of days. I ended up doing less than scripted, save the remainders up, cook them into powder and snort once a week or so. This was as good as it could get for me. Opioids suck, they didn't even kill pain for me unless again the dosage was pushed.

Now after being drug free for 2+ years (opiods, SNRI: 2 years, dissociatives and stims 3 years) I still have lingering symptoms like being more sensitive to distress, sexual side effects (low testosterone, could be from both venlafaxine and/or morphine). I am more forgetful than I used to be and my ADHD is at an all time high. I want to get on Vyvanse again but couldn't find a doctor accepting to prescribe - am living abroad so can't go back to them who prescribed me. But I am not sure whether this would work well, I was diagnosed with ADD before and never really took the stims daily because they cause anxiety for me. But now it's real ADHD including hyperactivity, and being unable to focus right away. I should learn a new language (Spanish) because few people speak English around here but I just can't pay attention for more than a couple of minutes and I've tried. Been 2 years now and I can't speak the language. Might have to leave if this continues.

Of course can't I tell what comes from which drug(s) and the cognitive effects might well be due to excessive dissociative use but they go away with many drugs, like prolintane (a stim which I could source from a nootropic site but has been discontinued), morphine (well more the emotional stuff but I think also focus), deschloroketamine. So I think it's long lasting (dopamine?) dysbalance. I just can't get any of those drugs now and here and part of me also doesn't want to. Also my gf is pretty much anti drug disinformed and doesn't want me to try any more psychoactive stuff, she is also against stims for ADHD because in her family was, back in the time where amphetamines were still OTC here, somebody who killed herself after abusing amphetamine. I can tell as much as I want that I know my drugs and have been scripted them before etc. she rather listens to YouTube alternative doctor quacks who label Ritalin as children's cocaine and such. I think she doesn't get that drugs aren't just bad for you but also provide sometimes pronounced benefits where one has to calculate which side, con or pro, outweighs. But now I'm off-topic, sorry guys.

I found a leftover morphine capsule when cleaning and decided to take it, as I couldn't get more anyways. ~60mg, after being 1 year off morphine. The effects were as expected, not overwhelming but a sense of calm euphoria and less chatter in my mind. But the days after I had a reoccurrence of the PAWS shit. So even after 1 year not everything is back to baseline even when tolerance goes rather fast.

There was also an interesting, distressing side effect of morphine. It seems to cause somewhat psychotic like stuff in me, hearing whispers and shouts in white noise, like running water or fans. I long blamed the dissociatives for them (in the end they are used in schizophrenia research) but the stuff continued without them, and gradually ceased when I stopped the morphine. While ON the morphine, I didn't tolerate DXM, it made my brain misinterpret ambient noise like driving by cars to be heard as shouting. I don't know whether this is really psychotic because I was always conscious about the stuff being just in my head. But it was not nice. Tried a couple of antipsychotics and they did shot besides inducing anhedonia and akathisia.

So, TLDR, I think there is something off about morphine/opioids yet I can't nail it down, too many variables. But the low test is real, and the sensitizing effect to distress too.
 
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