KurtAurelius
Bluelighter
I’m likely not qualified to reply to this discussion with anything major other than anecdotes.
If we are talking about Opioids pharmacologically pure
(no dual action, or weird stuff like Darvcocet and its metabolite or Dextromethadone)
Chemically pure, and intaken in a method that does not cause damage to the body (smoking, dirty works).
else anything not in this category is a issue with either the pharmacology of the Substance, Purity and any bad cuts and its methods of use.
Not the substance itself but this is of course a stringet list: but it’s helpful to understand better about what is the consequences of the direct pure opioid activity.
Any damage that comes from Opioids, far as I’m aware is
1. The already discussed homeostasis reaction, chronic use, without enough abstinence to allow receptors to function as normal, will cause a change that could be constituted as damage etc.
This cascades to causing a deficit in abstinence, and from the other replies it seems not fully understood but likely there is kindling akin to Benzos or Alcohol.
Meaning not a full recovery of the receptors to the prestate, leading to the issues like mood, anhedonia and lack of being able to just be at peace.
I do ponder however if other mechanisms affect it, regarding if someone is obtaining all nutrients, and a threshold of natural living conditions (social, exercise etc) that allows the body best to return to true homeostasis (the state before dependence or first dose) and if the difference seen is because of this, + the extent of the use, and the total time needed with a clean run of no further use.
I have no idea how badly a slip up effects it but my broscience would believe, the best chance the Brain has is with a total clean slate, with full controls regarding a self care that is the individual full capacity for health and recovery.
Only then, would any return of use be possible (problem you don’t know if you are healed, memory is not a useful comparison to your pre state)
I would hazard a guess that using during healing, especially if not one offs with many days off will essentially stop healing and harden it, the kindling we already discussed.
Perhaps there is memory, and the Brain with either opioids or all drugs will retain a satellite cell equivalent like how muscle can grow faster after already grown once but growing again.
I’ve never been physically dependent on Opioids, but my last chip was in the air after.
I had plenty of compounding factors to explain my state of mind, but using 56x 120mg DHC with the end use being far higher than the intial chip (240mg ER x1 a week- 300-420 IR 3x a week) begs me to think the very dark mind frame I entered after (suicidal) was party to blame from a down? regulation of some kind to my receptors causing a major mood disturbance.
2. The effect of chronic constipation.
Im not educated enough to give definitives but I believe most effects of opioids will become tolerant but I’m not sure if all.
If this is the case it can’t be good to be backed up 24/7.
When I was chipping even on the lower end, I wouldn’t shit for 24-36hrs after using.
Even with no redoses in those using periods, just one pop a go.
Of course I still cheated myself and increased the dose and by delivering a higher concentration in a shorter window, but the constipation only worsened.
Same with my appetite and I generally did not eat or rebound binge ate which is not good.
But not to stretch to everyone as this is only my experience.
3. The Hormone issues. I’m unsure of the mechanism totally, but seems consistent and is bad.
Unsure how it affects women, but having any deficit to testosterone as a man is debilitating.
4. Psychological impact of dosing, having to ensure you dose correctly to not become sick 24/7, having this as a worry.
You can perhaps frame it like eating I suppose if your knocking some pills back only twice a day say, but not knowing if your prescription will end, and if theirs a supply issue, etc. having to keep watch to ensure you now get something your body needs.
similar but not- I have a Stimulant prescription.
Although I am not going to get the same withdrawal syndrome, this is a little niggle in the back of my head sometimes.
A different drug so perhaps not the best comparison, but I still have that worry of having a medicine taken away and having to understand I will be in a ambiguously long deficit.
Its not about never having it again, as much as understanding their would be that knowledge of being worse off for a while.
Ive had to prepare myself that chances are I may have to come off and I will have to pay it back, I’m treating an issue that makes life worse but the brain doesn’t care. If it doesn’t have the drug which it’s fighting it will kill of the extra cells.
But stimulants do afford me more consistent effect, and my anxiety being so diminished this is merely a thought, not a panicking fear stricken feeling that I have to fight really, just a honest truth I am prepared for in case.
If I was on opioids and dependent, I can imagine how anxious I’d be when picking up a script, and knowing without something I’m basically disabled.
Another thing I heard that tolerances some times escalate either when stabilised causing you to become unwell even if previously properly managed and the dose has not increased - I’ve heard this from methadone but can’t say if across the board.
That’s all I can say, and my point is not likely one to add much, but this is a topic that interests me greatly.
The Boxed and Equation part of my brain ponders there is a perfect regimen, to use opioids and establish enough abstinence to retain a potent effect and not have any negative during the off times.
My last chipping experience showed me that although I ended it, and have abstained, that I witnessed my willingness to push the limit of what I could use and see how bad it would be.
Wanting to secure a bit more of my secret commodity, and to accept the fact that even without a true physical dependence I would see the changes in constantly slamming my receptors and then only just about letting them clear before doing so again, and then jumping off.
But that’s something spoken about to death, and those who say you can but actually can’t, no point bothering etc.
Just me but it’s ambiguous, and the cop out is to say the individual.
I can manage my use, but I still witnessed the effects of frequent use on my mindstate, and how it allows a strong ego like mine to wish to bend the rules.
Being given 4 30mg Codeines is not the same as having the responsibility of a 56 bottle of 120mg Dihydrocodeine.
You know you won’t have codeine for a while likely, but knowing you have a whole bottle 4x the potency and can accept some deficit for a bit more fun now and play the game is very real for me.
Even knowing I would suffer, but I decided I’d bite it for that indulgence.
It would be fair if anyone says to me that I should define it black and white and just say not to bother ever again.
But I plan for now, to just wait the boon of a random find.
I can access what I did but ordering like that, when I can anytime with a larger amount is fire.
Again indicating I have a problem lol.
Junkie justifyings are that I decide no to a controlled supply and will go without most of the time.
Better for a blue moon on chance then something I can do as often as I wish.
Your brain chemistry changing allows you to live transiently and unless you keep a strict journal, and principals that won’t shift, it’s easy to say “fuck it” but everyone knows this.
If we are talking about Opioids pharmacologically pure
(no dual action, or weird stuff like Darvcocet and its metabolite or Dextromethadone)
Chemically pure, and intaken in a method that does not cause damage to the body (smoking, dirty works).
else anything not in this category is a issue with either the pharmacology of the Substance, Purity and any bad cuts and its methods of use.
Not the substance itself but this is of course a stringet list: but it’s helpful to understand better about what is the consequences of the direct pure opioid activity.
Any damage that comes from Opioids, far as I’m aware is
1. The already discussed homeostasis reaction, chronic use, without enough abstinence to allow receptors to function as normal, will cause a change that could be constituted as damage etc.
This cascades to causing a deficit in abstinence, and from the other replies it seems not fully understood but likely there is kindling akin to Benzos or Alcohol.
Meaning not a full recovery of the receptors to the prestate, leading to the issues like mood, anhedonia and lack of being able to just be at peace.
I do ponder however if other mechanisms affect it, regarding if someone is obtaining all nutrients, and a threshold of natural living conditions (social, exercise etc) that allows the body best to return to true homeostasis (the state before dependence or first dose) and if the difference seen is because of this, + the extent of the use, and the total time needed with a clean run of no further use.
I have no idea how badly a slip up effects it but my broscience would believe, the best chance the Brain has is with a total clean slate, with full controls regarding a self care that is the individual full capacity for health and recovery.
Only then, would any return of use be possible (problem you don’t know if you are healed, memory is not a useful comparison to your pre state)
I would hazard a guess that using during healing, especially if not one offs with many days off will essentially stop healing and harden it, the kindling we already discussed.
Perhaps there is memory, and the Brain with either opioids or all drugs will retain a satellite cell equivalent like how muscle can grow faster after already grown once but growing again.
I’ve never been physically dependent on Opioids, but my last chip was in the air after.
I had plenty of compounding factors to explain my state of mind, but using 56x 120mg DHC with the end use being far higher than the intial chip (240mg ER x1 a week- 300-420 IR 3x a week) begs me to think the very dark mind frame I entered after (suicidal) was party to blame from a down? regulation of some kind to my receptors causing a major mood disturbance.
2. The effect of chronic constipation.
Im not educated enough to give definitives but I believe most effects of opioids will become tolerant but I’m not sure if all.
If this is the case it can’t be good to be backed up 24/7.
When I was chipping even on the lower end, I wouldn’t shit for 24-36hrs after using.
Even with no redoses in those using periods, just one pop a go.
Of course I still cheated myself and increased the dose and by delivering a higher concentration in a shorter window, but the constipation only worsened.
Same with my appetite and I generally did not eat or rebound binge ate which is not good.
But not to stretch to everyone as this is only my experience.
3. The Hormone issues. I’m unsure of the mechanism totally, but seems consistent and is bad.
Unsure how it affects women, but having any deficit to testosterone as a man is debilitating.
4. Psychological impact of dosing, having to ensure you dose correctly to not become sick 24/7, having this as a worry.
You can perhaps frame it like eating I suppose if your knocking some pills back only twice a day say, but not knowing if your prescription will end, and if theirs a supply issue, etc. having to keep watch to ensure you now get something your body needs.
similar but not- I have a Stimulant prescription.
Although I am not going to get the same withdrawal syndrome, this is a little niggle in the back of my head sometimes.
A different drug so perhaps not the best comparison, but I still have that worry of having a medicine taken away and having to understand I will be in a ambiguously long deficit.
Its not about never having it again, as much as understanding their would be that knowledge of being worse off for a while.
Ive had to prepare myself that chances are I may have to come off and I will have to pay it back, I’m treating an issue that makes life worse but the brain doesn’t care. If it doesn’t have the drug which it’s fighting it will kill of the extra cells.
But stimulants do afford me more consistent effect, and my anxiety being so diminished this is merely a thought, not a panicking fear stricken feeling that I have to fight really, just a honest truth I am prepared for in case.
If I was on opioids and dependent, I can imagine how anxious I’d be when picking up a script, and knowing without something I’m basically disabled.
Another thing I heard that tolerances some times escalate either when stabilised causing you to become unwell even if previously properly managed and the dose has not increased - I’ve heard this from methadone but can’t say if across the board.
That’s all I can say, and my point is not likely one to add much, but this is a topic that interests me greatly.
The Boxed and Equation part of my brain ponders there is a perfect regimen, to use opioids and establish enough abstinence to retain a potent effect and not have any negative during the off times.
My last chipping experience showed me that although I ended it, and have abstained, that I witnessed my willingness to push the limit of what I could use and see how bad it would be.
Wanting to secure a bit more of my secret commodity, and to accept the fact that even without a true physical dependence I would see the changes in constantly slamming my receptors and then only just about letting them clear before doing so again, and then jumping off.
But that’s something spoken about to death, and those who say you can but actually can’t, no point bothering etc.
Just me but it’s ambiguous, and the cop out is to say the individual.
I can manage my use, but I still witnessed the effects of frequent use on my mindstate, and how it allows a strong ego like mine to wish to bend the rules.
Being given 4 30mg Codeines is not the same as having the responsibility of a 56 bottle of 120mg Dihydrocodeine.
You know you won’t have codeine for a while likely, but knowing you have a whole bottle 4x the potency and can accept some deficit for a bit more fun now and play the game is very real for me.
Even knowing I would suffer, but I decided I’d bite it for that indulgence.
It would be fair if anyone says to me that I should define it black and white and just say not to bother ever again.
But I plan for now, to just wait the boon of a random find.
I can access what I did but ordering like that, when I can anytime with a larger amount is fire.
Again indicating I have a problem lol.
Junkie justifyings are that I decide no to a controlled supply and will go without most of the time.
Better for a blue moon on chance then something I can do as often as I wish.
Your brain chemistry changing allows you to live transiently and unless you keep a strict journal, and principals that won’t shift, it’s easy to say “fuck it” but everyone knows this.
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