• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

language, eastern thought, social anxiety, and you

B

bleedingheartcommie

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 23, 2004
Messages
1,731
Location
East Coast
THis is probably better suited for the journal just because it's going to be very broad and i'm not very articulate. But this is T&A and I need some feedback, so here goes...

This is the generalization of my evolution of philosophical perspectives.

anti/ conflict/ marxist

atheist

plato/thinker trying to find universal truth ect...

moral relativist

radical behaviorist

nihilist

and the last three years of my life I have been developing a taoist (and somewhat buddhist) perspective.


I have become very aware and on several occasions have experienced ego death. I have done this through much introspection, meditation, and reading. I feel more and more of an intense connection to the universe every day. The feeling that I poses on a day to day basis is indescibabaly powerful and good. I am very in the moment almost all the time and have completely killed my inner monologue. That is to say, I no longer think in words. I don't even know if you could call what I do thinking. I sort of listen to the humm of silence and things just come to me.

A huge step in all of this was the realization that language is an abstraction of reality and thus it can never produce TRUTH. When people talk to me, I listen to the words as if they are sounds or music. When I read, I have strange moments where I look back and see that the words on the page are just ink on paper. language only has meaning when you ascribe meaning to it. It's all just a bunch of noise. that doesn't make it bad, It just makes it no more important than any other noise. It's like listening to rain drops.

The problem...

I have developed a large amount of social anxiety lately, and i think it has to do with my new understanding of language. I see no point in small talk. I have lost interest in all talk/education that doesn't contribute to deconstruction of self or other assumptions. When my professor calls on me, or when a stranger talks to me, it's as if they are trying to make me play a game that I no longer want to play. I get very anxious (which feels very much like my more enlightened moments) just in a negative way. Luckily My major is sociology, and i still have limited interest in that b/c it helps people deconstruct assumptions. has anyone else experienced anxiety after such deconstructions?

also... I am losing interest in school all together. i am a soc major and a junior. I was on my way to gradschool, but lately I'm thinking about dropping out all together. I just want to sit in a forrest, and be. Just want to get by and enjoy living. I'm just worried that this is only a phase in my development and thus don't want to make any drastic decisions.


I feel like i need to get out of this high stimulus environment (college in the US).

so in summation
I feel like my anxiety comes from my complete indifference to language. This is a problem and i don't know if i can get through it in this environment. At the same time, I am communicating right now with language, so even though it takes us out of the moment, it must have some use. the question is it worth it. has anyone had any experiences like this? any suggestions?

also feel free to post whatever about language or ego loss or anything. It's just noise right? the point is, feel free to take this rambling thread into a new or even a focussed direction.

sorry for the length, but like i said... i'm not very articulate:
 
Without language how would we be able to describe the IDEAS behind the words. Sure language can not produce TRUTH, but the word itself is not important, its the intrinsic value behind the word. I dont mean the definition, per se, but the MEANING of the word. Love, happiness, regret, salvation, soul . . . just letters phonetically lumped together to sound unique on its own, but the sound, the length, the look . . . none of that matters. Its the idea we have created to go along with the word.

I feel you on the small talk issue. For me, its a waste of time, going through the whole process of asking questions with answers I see no value in. I completley understand what you mean when you say its a game, Ive been feeling this way alot lately . . . but I think its has more to do with the social anxiety itself (in my case anyway), not the causes behind.

Also, I think the longer the post . . . the more articulate you are. . .
 
i can sooooo relate to you. i as well as you have tried exploring with ego-death, meditation, yoga, mantras, reading, etc. ever since i had my first psychedelic experience, ive been trying to find something more in life.

and basically my ever lasting goal goes as follows: increase awareness and live more in the moment - remove inner diologue, make parents happy and succeed in this material game - get my accounting degree, detach myself from materialism and sensual gratification - get the hell out of the west, explore countries which lack what we have so much of - get rid of everything on the outside and fill up my inside.

ive come to the conclusion that it is impossible for me to have everything on the inside when i am surrounded by a country which demands a material lifestyle.

i dunno, im planning on getting my degree, save up a bunch, and just wander around india for as long as possible, doing as much meditation and mantra as possible. but what do i do in the winter?


edit: i feel you on the social anxiety part as well. generally, i am a reserved person, enjoy being on my own and avoiding the 'small talk' which bores me half the time. sometimes when i communicate with people, i start observing how i am a mask talking to another mask, and i start drifting off and lose concentration. then, i just dont really have much to say. but this doesn't always happen, usually when i smoke weed, or do acid. im social when i drink...
 
Last edited:
ebola? said:
>>Its the idea we have created to go along with the word. >>

I think he sees past the ideas.

ebola
Click to expand...

and what would that be?

He states that language only has a meaning when one is assigned to it. What I think, and what I meant to say earlier, is the word wouldnt be here without the idea.
 
Last edited:
^^^^ I would say that the idea wouldn't be there without the word. YOu'r conceptions of the world are born out of language. I have found a way to experience the world without ideas as a buffer to reality.

i can sooooo relate to you. i as well as you have tried exploring with ego-death, meditation, yoga, mantras, reading, etc. ever since i had my first psychedelic experience, ive been trying to find something more in life.

and basically my ever lasting goal goes as follows: increase awareness and live more in the moment - remove inner diologue, make parents happy and succeed in this material game - get my accounting degree, detach myself from materialism and sensual gratification - get the hell out of the west, explore countries which lack what we have so much of - get rid of everything on the outside and fill up my inside.

ive come to the conclusion that it is impossible for me to have everything on the inside when i am surrounded by a country which demands a material lifestyle.

i dunno, im planning on getting my degree, save up a bunch, and just wander around india for as long as possible, doing as much meditation and mantra as possible. but what do i do in the winter?


edit: i feel you on the social anxiety part as well. generally, i am a reserved person, enjoy being on my own and avoiding the 'small talk' which bores me half the time. sometimes when i communicate with people, i start observing how i am a mask talking to another mask, and i start drifting off and lose concentration. then, i just dont really have much to say. but this doesn't always happen, usually when i smoke weed, or do acid. im social when i drink...
Click to expand...

I really like your post. I thing you put it better thsn I did.

i guess my real question to you and to myself is....

do i stay in school and keep puting off enkightenment, or do i let it happen as it is supposed to? should I completely let go into the exctacy of reality? or should i keep putting it off for a later date? or should i be looking for a moderation of both?
 
bleedingheartcommie said:
^^^^ I would say that the idea wouldn't be there without the word. YOu'r conceptions of the world are born out of language. I have found a way to experience the world without ideas as a buffer to reality.



I really like your post. I thing you put it better thsn I did.

i guess my real question to you and to myself is....

do i stay in school and keep puting off enkightenment, or do i let it happen as it is supposed to? should I completely let go into the exctacy of reality? or should i keep putting it off for a later date? or should i be looking for a moderation of both?
Click to expand...


stay in school.. beat the game. society would have a less chance of bringing you down if you are secured in it. you would have a less chance of you bringing you down if you get your education. after that save up 10 000 dollars, go to an eastern country and spend 2 dollars a day to feed yourself.

i know it sounds too simple, but life is simple behind the camouflage..
 
i dont see why the persuit of enlightenment and more "western" ways of analyzing problems has to be mutually exclusive. its not like every taoist sits in a dark room and stares at a candle for 14 hours a day, yah know?
 
bleedingheartcommie said:
The problem...

I have developed a large amount of social anxiety lately, and i think it has to do with my new understanding of language. I see no point in small talk. I have lost interest in all talk/education that doesn't contribute to deconstruction of self or other assumptions. When my professor calls on me, or when a stranger talks to me, it's as if they are trying to make me play a game that I no longer want to play. I get very anxious (which feels very much like my more enlightened moments) just in a negative way. Luckily My major is sociology, and i still have limited interest in that b/c it helps people deconstruct assumptions. has anyone else experienced anxiety after such deconstructions?

also... I am losing interest in school all together. i am a soc major and a junior. I was on my way to gradschool, but lately I'm thinking about dropping out all together. I just want to sit in a forrest, and be. Just want to get by and enjoy living. I'm just worried that this is only a phase in my development and thus don't want to make any drastic decisions.


I feel like i need to get out of this high stimulus environment (college in the US).

so in summation
I feel like my anxiety comes from my complete indifference to language. This is a problem and i don't know if i can get through it in this environment. At the same time, I am communicating right now with language, so even though it takes us out of the moment, it must have some use. the question is it worth it. has anyone had any experiences like this? any suggestions?

also feel free to post whatever about language or ego loss or anything. It's just noise right? the point is, feel free to take this rambling thread into a new or even a focussed direction.

sorry for the length, but like i said... i'm not very articulate:
Click to expand...

fun.

i went through almost the same stuff. just trust me when i say the struggle you are going through is oh-so worth it.

think of it this way.....
not many people can reach your level of insight into things. when you are feeling your lowest, just think of other people who have experienced the same thing, and feel compassion for them, and for yourself.

and btw--i know what you mean, but language is not just noise. it is exactly what it appears to be, nothing less, nothing more.

also....you can't really try to eliminate internal chatter. you can't try to act effortlessly, it just happens.

for me, the state of oneness, non-action, comes and goes. it's like waves.

it's just suddenly realizing that there's nothing to be done. all i need to do is let go and the proper actions will arise of themselves.
 
I didn''t really try to eliminate inner chatter... I just sort of let it run it's course. but i agree with you about the waves. It seems that everytime i reach a new level of understanding it's more powerful taht the one before, but i always get drawn back a little into bad habbits... I am assuming that this is because of the high stimulus environment around me. for instance... here i am, I just had a mind blowing ego loss last weekend, but since i live in a small appartment with two guys who are very on the surface, i'm forced to interact with them, and thus the ego develops yet again. this is just one example.

(also.. i don't veiw moving out and living day to day as boring. that is my goal.)

My only reserve about finishing school or beeting the game is that it seems like a trap to me. It seems like all there is is now, and if i'm not ready now, the i will never be. The nature of this whole concept, or lack of concept, is to let go and let it happen. Can i really do that in a college setting?


i dont see why the persuit of enlightenment and more "western" ways of analyzing problems has to be mutually exclusive. its not like every taoist sits in a dark room and stares at a candle for 14 hours a day, yah know?
Click to expand...

it's not purely analytical thinking, moreso the speed taht the mass stimulus in the west created.

actually just in an attempt to learn from you POV. I'll say yes, they are mutually exclusive. If you are conceptualizing then you are living in a world inside your head. you are not in reality, but rather distracted from it with these illusions that we put so much faith in. language, math, logic, all human creatings and all just measurements. these things are just breaking things down to a smaller and smaller measurement. That is directly opposite to eastern thought, which emphasizes backing up to see a larger picture.

in the west, when we teach physics, we start with the atom and work our way up. This is a derivative of how atomized we are in the west, from our over emphasis on individuality. Why instead would we not start from the understanding that we are submerged in a connected sea of atoms and then work our way down?

It all comes back to language. It was invented by seperating things. Get past that, and you can see th larger picture. the uncut picture.

it's almost impossible for me to describe this in language as it is the buisness of language to seperate things, but i'll try.

when there is a frog hopping in front of you, you see a frog hopping across the grond

when there is one hoping infront of me, I see a part of the universe continuing to move. Notice that i couldn't express that to you with out saying "a part" there is no way to truely communicate an unseperated reality. this is my problem with language, and why i fell like i need to move somewhere, not where people dont talk to me, but where i'm not expected to answer. b/c everytime i do, I lose touch with the ongoing yes that is the universe.

i hope taht made some sense
 
it might be you who are disconnected.... :(

from what it sounds like to me, perhaps you just haven't found the right crowd?

as for the whole college thing.....you need to do what your own internal compass tells you. And that could be just staying in a state of confusion until you can see the path ahead clearly! Just be patient (i know, its hard for me, too!!!) and let the right actions arise.

Eventually you will find peace & harmony. But first the river is gonna rush--just hold on and endure the ride.

Also....watch the Big Lebowski if you haven't yet and study Zen Dudeism =D
 
someone wise said something along the lines of, "we talk because if we didn't, we would forget how." i sometimes get annoyed because there isn't really anything new to say, and yet there's all this talking. i hate small talk because of its banality and worthlessness. when did it become so important to tell everyone what we think?

Medatripper Tates said:
stay in school.. beat the game. society would have a less chance of bringing you down if you are secured in it. you would have a less chance of you bringing you down if you get your education. after that save up 10 000 dollars, go to an eastern country and spend 2 dollars a day to feed yourself.

i know it sounds too simple, but life is simple behind the camouflage..
Click to expand...

goood advice. the answers are there, and they always have been. it's pretty funny how simple things really are.

i don't know much about western philosophy, but america is really stifling to personal growth. people who are in power just want to make money, and a lot of what they're doing is hurting the rest of us. yep. america sucks, but it sure is comfy. =D
 
bleedingheartcommie said:
^^^^ I would say that the idea wouldn't be there without the word. YOu'r conceptions of the world are born out of language. I have found a way to experience the world without ideas as a buffer to reality.
Click to expand...

Well let me ask you this, what came first? We developed language off of our thoughts. Language would not be here without the idea to set it forward. When youre born, you can think, but you cant speak.

Would people not fall in love if their was no word for love?

We had feelings and thoughts be4 the spoken word.
 
does my dog think? or does he just react to the world around him? Does a flower have to think in order to grow towards the sunlight?

My assumption is that language created emotion and ideas. We were a bunch of apes barking all the tine and eventually barked the same way at something. This was accidental, but it is where the first concepts of labeling things came from.

do animals display emotion? or does it just look that way to us because we are stuck in a world of lables.

another dangerous thing that language has doneto us is that it has created the illusion of the past and the future. My dog speaks little to no language. do you really think he is sitting there thinking about the walk he went on yesterday? no of course not. he is sitting there, taking in the world.
 
Language created symbols to describe emotions we already had.

Also, I would never claim to know what a dog is thinking. I dont see it entirley unreasonable for a dog to have a memory of a good walk and be thinking about something along those lines.
 
>>Language created symbols to describe emotions we already had. >>

Language (well, concepts, really), however, is not entirely passive description. Language segments the world, at the same time emphasizing particular elements thereof, those remaining falling into the background. At the same time, this process shapes the surrounding context from which it is born. Would love exist without language? Yes, but it would not exist as "love".

ebola
 
ebola? said:
>>Language created symbols to describe emotions we already had. >>

Language (well, concepts, really), however, is not entirely passive description. Language segments the world, at the same time emphasizing particular elements thereof, those remaining falling into the background. At the same time, this process shapes the surrounding context from which it is born. Would love exist without language? Yes, but it would not exist as "love".

ebola
Click to expand...

could you please, for the sake of human understanding, write in a way which is compatible to all viewers? :|
 
I know what you mean. Words for the sake of their own resonance, people just wanting to hear themselves speak. Word vomit. Call it whatever you want. Language limits the way we feel IMO because when we're confronted with an emotion or a situation that defies description, we'll find a word and then mold our experience to fit within the boundaries of its definition; especially when we're recounting something, written or spoken. It's an easy trap to fall into.

I remember on the comedown of my first and only acid trip (hey, it is a drug board) I was trying to write down some thoughts/notes and was stuck for a good five minutes trying to overcome this very problem. I came up with 'sorrow' for this wierd mixture of sadness and beauty and elation but then found myself trying to reconstruct the night in terms of the word 'sorrow' - which didn't do any of it justice. That spun me out a bit, so I settled on 'LSDity', which was pretty funny at the time (and avoided any more thinking).

Anyway. If you listen to a word or look at one on a page for long enough, the absurdity of it all hits you pretty quick. It's entirely arbitrary. I get the same feeling listening to lots of music, or looking at artworks sometimes; just random assortments of sounds, colours, images. Of course, like anything, there is a definite aesthetic in language than can transcend its (apparent) meaninglessness; try and find that. Beauty is everywhere - it's whether or not you're looking.

Of course, when we're talking small talk, it IS all a game. Don't let that faze you. Just find something you love and stick to it; if it's deconstructing the self or whatever, maybe psychology (or stick with sociology) - 'a profession is the backbone of life.' Or, don't bother with the small talk. People who either ignore or skim over the bullshit often make the best impressions...so be one of those persons. Find something you _can_ connect with. Another thing: your education is always gonna be worth it. The more you learn, the better you'll know yourself (and be able to confront problems like these...)

hopefully that all meant something =D peace

edit: spelling
 
Last edited:
Eh.. I don't know if I should throw in some counter-arguments or try to rationalize what you're saying.

For one thing, small talk exists for a reason. There are bullshit reasons and games, but it's also to create a bond between two people - a level of comfort between them. It can suck but it can also be fun. You can make jokes and enjoy yourself if you're talking to somebody particularly stale (or just plain ignore them). Can't you play their game with your rules?

And language does not create the past or memories. although it can help one recall the past. I'll remember, quite vividly actually, the feeling of the experience of something in the past due to a presented stimulus. I don't need to think about the past or ruminate over it with words, it'll just come.

And ebola said my point about language and emotions.

(and i'm guessing this is how to be "in the moment")
 
bleedingheartcommie said:
THis is probably better suited for the journal just because it's going to be very broad and i'm not very articulate. But this is T&A and I need some feedback, so here goes...

This is the generalization of my evolution of philosophical perspectives.

anti/ conflict/ marxist

atheist

plato/thinker trying to find universal truth ect...

moral relativist

radical behaviorist

nihilist

and the last three years of my life I have been developing a taoist (and somewhat buddhist) perspective.


I have become very aware and on several occasions have experienced ego death. I have done this through much introspection, meditation, and reading. I feel more and more of an intense connection to the universe every day. The feeling that I poses on a day to day basis is indescibabaly powerful and good. I am very in the moment almost all the time and have completely killed my inner monologue. That is to say, I no longer think in words. I don't even know if you could call what I do thinking. I sort of listen to the humm of silence and things just come to me.

A huge step in all of this was the realization that language is an abstraction of reality and thus it can never produce TRUTH. When people talk to me, I listen to the words as if they are sounds or music. When I read, I have strange moments where I look back and see that the words on the page are just ink on paper. language only has meaning when you ascribe meaning to it. It's all just a bunch of noise. that doesn't make it bad, It just makes it no more important than any other noise. It's like listening to rain drops.

The problem...

I have developed a large amount of social anxiety lately, and i think it has to do with my new understanding of language. I see no point in small talk. I have lost interest in all talk/education that doesn't contribute to deconstruction of self or other assumptions. When my professor calls on me, or when a stranger talks to me, it's as if they are trying to make me play a game that I no longer want to play. I get very anxious (which feels very much like my more enlightened moments) just in a negative way. Luckily My major is sociology, and i still have limited interest in that b/c it helps people deconstruct assumptions. has anyone else experienced anxiety after such deconstructions?

also... I am losing interest in school all together. i am a soc major and a junior. I was on my way to gradschool, but lately I'm thinking about dropping out all together. I just want to sit in a forrest, and be. Just want to get by and enjoy living. I'm just worried that this is only a phase in my development and thus don't want to make any drastic decisions.


I feel like i need to get out of this high stimulus environment (college in the US).

so in summation
I feel like my anxiety comes from my complete indifference to language. This is a problem and i don't know if i can get through it in this environment. At the same time, I am communicating right now with language, so even though it takes us out of the moment, it must have some use. the question is it worth it. has anyone had any experiences like this? any suggestions?

also feel free to post whatever about language or ego loss or anything. It's just noise right? the point is, feel free to take this rambling thread into a new or even a focussed direction.

sorry for the length, but like i said... i'm not very articulate:
Click to expand...


So, tell us, what is you're objective? Do you really want to cut off all ties to humanity and your own subconsious? That is what it appears to be what you are saying. You find no importance in language yet you have no problem using it when it suits your needs. To kill off such an important part of your being like your inner dialogue could lead to all sorts of misfortune, you may for instance start an outer dialogue because you can no longer think straight, people will definitely notice that and off to the psych ward go you.

I am not trying to be mean or antagonise you nor am I playing devils advocate. Ahhh..I had so much more to say, but....is it worth saying? Is anything worth saying? Well, I think there is.

I will say that I agree with a lot of what you say but that is because some of what you have gone through I have too, but my journey was without my wanting for it to happen. Indeed it was a personal struggle for it not to happen. I agree that some people talk wayyy too much for what they need to. I like to call them (and I can't spell it hopefully you will know what I mean) "Xzeybechey, He who talks loud and says nothing" from the movie Dead Man with Johnny Depp. Some people like to use the world around them in the same way as I use the area inside my skull, to work out ideas and generally think. I hate that, I need my inner peace to think, whereas they need an outer source to help them think.

Anyway, I would hate to see anybody go crazy and forever stunt their mental development and the way that you put things sounds like a perfect way for that to eventuate IMO. (not that I think that it will happen to you, I mean if we had mental templates for modes of thought, the way that you are seeing things would definitly turn some people mad)

Hope I didn't offend you.:\
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top